Can the external call of the gospel by itself produce faith in the heart of the natural man?

[ReverendRV]

Sadly, I think we are so close to having the same belief, yet so far..

I am not hear to convince you I am right. People are free to believe as they want. And unlike your true enemy (the arminian) you at least have faith in Gods promise and his ability to keep us from falling

We have no Soteriological enemies; especially Arminians. I'd say our big Soteriological adversaries are Provisionists. I haven't encountered a real Arminian online in years...

Arminians believe in Total Depravity...

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That doesn't tell me why he had to go to the cross?

Smh

My friend, I am being honest.I think you have such an aversion to me, I do not think anything I say will convince you

Jesus did what on the cross?

He made atonement for sin

the High priest made atonement for all the children of Israel (and gentiles who joined them) whether they believed in God or not

Jesus did the same. For the sin of the world.Which he made propitiation for.

If he did not go to the cross. We would be under law.

Now tell me, how many of us would end up in heaven?

What prompted that question was your saying that God has been overcoming man's inability not understand spiritual things.

I believe in an omnipotent, Omniscient and Perfect loving God who can overcome anything, I do not limit God.

So what was done by Jesus that could only be done by him going to the cross? And how did God do it before Jesus went to the cross?

ATONEMENT

Again, read John 3, He says it well.. He came not to judge THE WORLD. But that THE WORLD through him MIGHT BE SAVED.

It did not say the would would be saved it said it might be saved

What seperates the lost from the found?

he who believes is NOT CONDEMNED

He who DOES NOT BELIEVE is Condmemned already

It would be foolish for God to come to earth. Live a life fulfilling the law. The die for his creation. Then not give them a change to be redeemed by His blood..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Civic?

Civic? The user Civic? I knew a civic from another chatroom..

 

[Hazelelponi]

Everyone wishes to be saved and not die. But not everyone will see or believe what it takes

That's the problem, that is all some people want. That's the wrong motive.

When we desire after God for His own sake, just the sake of knowing Him in truth, that's when our faith and hearts are in the correct place.

When you say things like not everyone will believe what it takes [to be saved from God's wrath] you seem, by ommission only, to be forgetting that Jesus Christ saved us from the wrath of God in order to reconcile us to God. The reconciliation is the reason we are saved. The impetus here is the knowledge of and relationship with God, not just escaping just punishment for sin.

A portion of the knowledge of God we have right now is experienced in some way that is personal, and deeply so, to each one of us.

But the main body of knowledge of and about God does come from His special, progressive revelation of Himself that we can read and learn, from studying the Scriptures as well as learning from others who have devoted their lives to study.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

We have no Soteriological enemies; especially Arminians. I'd say our big Soteriological adversaries are Provisionists. I haven't encountered a real Arminian in years...

Arminians believe in Total Depravity...

They also believe in free will..

And worse yet they believe salvation can be lost (their faith is in their works)

I think our biggest enemy is the church that ruled for a few thousand years.. Sadly, although many came out from her. They kept some of her heretical doctrines.

 

[ReverendRV]

They also believe in free will..

And worse yet they believe salvation can be lost (their faith is in their works)

I think our biggest enemy is the church that ruled for a few thousand years.. Sadly, although many came out from her. They kept some of her heretical doctrines.

Though a Classical Arminian's view of Total Depravity and Eternal Security are Weaker than a Calvinist's, it's still there. Also, an Arminian's belief in Free Will is stronger than you think...


Providence ~ by ReverendRV * August 20

Psalm 145:13 NET; Your kingdom is an eternal kingdom, and your dominion endures through all Generations.

There are many false teachings about religion and often they infiltrate our thinking, causing us to have a point of view that God didn’t mean for us to have. Our verse reminds me of a couple of errors that have crept into the Church. ~ Open Theism believes in a Christ-like God, but one who has left us to our own devices; because he isn’t Omniscient. Deism is the belief that an unknown God created everything, and also left us to our own devices. Who would want a God that would leave us and not use his own devices for our sake? ~ The evidence that the Church has been infiltrated by these false beliefs is the diminishing of a very important teaching from the Bible; God’s Providence. You ask, “What exactly is Providence?”

God has the right to Govern his Creation; an everlasting Dominion that endures through all generations of humanity. In the Garden of Eden God gave Man Dominion over the world as its Governor; likewise God is our Governor. When we welcome our own Dominion, we validate the Dominion of others; if God is real; he IS your Governor. ~ The Theologian Jacob Arminius teaches us this, ‘My sentiments respecting the Providence of God are these: It is present with, presides over all things, according to their essences, qualities, relations, actions, passions, places, times, stations, and habits, are subject to its governance, conservation, and direction. I except neither particular, sublunary, vile, nor contingent things, not even the free wills of men or of angels, either good or evil: And, still more; I don’t take away from the divine Providence governing even Sins themselves, whether we consider their commencement, their progress or their termination.’ ~ But you object, “How then is it even my fault when I Lie or steal??” The answer is found in the Bible; Jeremiah said that Judah sacrificed their children in a fire to a false Idol; but God said it never entered his Heart and Mind to ‘Cause’ them to Sin. And the Bible says when Joseph’s brothers sold him into Slavery, that the brothers meant it for evil but God Meant it for Good; to save many lives…

Through his Providence, God governs us in a way that he is NOT the Author of Sin. The Bible says that one of God’s names is translated as “God will Provide”; God does provide us a way of escape! In the Old Testament Abraham was sent by God to sacrifice his only begotten son. His son Isaac noticed there was no animal for the offering, but Abraham knew that God would provide a lamb. As Abraham was about to Sacrifice his son, God stopped him and testified of their Faith. Over to the side there was a ram caught in a thicket of thorns by its horns; God provided a Substitute for the Sacrifice! The Lord Jesus Christ is our Substitute who was executed for our Sins; the religious people of that day meant this for evil, but God meant it for our good. Put your Faith in the Risen Lord Savior Jesus Christ and your Sins will be Forgiven; you will not have to pay the eternal Punishment for them in Hell. Repent of your Sin, confess Jesus Christ as your LORD; and find a Church that will help you along your way. ~ We need a God who won’t leave us without the use of his devices. We’re Saved by Grace through Faith; not by our own devices…

Genesis 22:8a ESV; Abraham said, “God will provide for himself the lamb for a burnt offering, my son.”

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That's the problem, that is all some people want. That's the wrong motive.

It’s more than this. Its that they can not let go of self.

Jesus said we must become poor in spirit to see the kingdom,

The word here is deeper than just being poor. being poor is not enough. It literally means to be bankrupt. To have nothing to offer. To have lost everything. To become a begger

This is what it takes to see the kingdom of God..

God took me to my knees twice in my life. The first time when I was about 9. For months I was torn, being drawn, Scared of hell. But refusing to see I was totally broke. So i would pray, but I was ot broken yet.

Then one day, someone took me aside. Upended up the book of john, walked me down the road Jesus gave us, Then he took me to the romans road. I was at the end of that conversation broken. I had two choices. Get up and walk away, and think about it (if I did I doubt I ever would have come back) or take a step of faith and trust God.

I was born again after I called out to God. I was a new creature. All of a sudden the things of God opened up to me. While I had a lot to learn, they were no more foreign to me. I walked out of that church that morning a new child of God

But as many as recieve him, to the he gives the power to become sons of God. God gave me that power through his word. Through all gthe people he put in my life. Through the experiences of the months before where he kept pulling and dragging myself (drawing) to himself.

I praise Go to the hgi heaven he did not give up on me, He took me to that point of no return, and saved me

When we desire after God for His own sake, just the sake of knowing Him in truth, that's when our faith and hearts are in the correct place.

Oh I agree amen

When you say things like not everyone will believe what it takes [to be saved from God's wrath] you seem, by ommission only, to be forgetting that Jesus Christ saved us from the wrath of God in order to reconcile us to God. The reconciliation is the reason we are saved.

Yes, he saved US from the wrath of God. From the condemnation to come

But again, what does John say?

he who believes is not condemned.

The condemnation or Gods wrath is for the unbeliever. The cross is there for them to see too. Just like the boronze serpent. Its just due to their unbelief, they refused to believe.

These people defied God. They mocked him, they rejected his love, and their punishment will be well deserved.

Although it will not be Gods glory to send them there.. He created Hell for satan and his angels.. Not for man. Man will just join them, because man refused to believe,

A portion of the knowledge of God we have right now is experienced in some way that is personal, and deeply so, to each one of us.

Amen, 100% sis. Love this

But the main body of knowledge of and about God does come from His special, progressive revelation of Himself that we can read and learn from studying the Scriptures as well as learning from others who have devoted their lives to study

God is a work in us. He has to convince us.

Like I tried to share earlier. Those we trust had to earn our trust. Its one thing to earn a trust That Gods work will save us and he will keep his promise

its another thing to trust God in our personal lives. Sadly thats why we still sin, Our ability to love and trust in all areas is a growing project (sanctification) that will nto be completed until we are glorified

 

[ReverendRV]

They also believe in free will..

And worse yet they believe salvation can be lost (their faith is in their works)

I think our biggest enemy is the church that ruled for a few thousand years.. Sadly, although many came out from her. They kept some of her heretical doctrines.

This is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.

Arminius' Works - THE FREE-WILL OF MAN

Works of James Arminius. Sermons, theology, Bible dictionaries, and more are linked to this page

godrules.net

 

[Arial]

But are regenerated (made alive) when the penalty of sin is removed.

Not before


Gods justice demands a penalty of sin (death)

God love can not overrule that justice are a way (the cross)

"No one can see (or enter) the kingdom of heaven unless he is born again."

The kingdom of heaven is invisible so the "see" here is not visual but speaks of understanding. "Oh, I see!"

Why can sinners not enter the kingdom of heaven?
Because it is holy.

How is one cleansed of unrighteousness?
By being placed in Christ and his righteousness imputed to them.

How is one placed in Christ?
By being born again since they were first born in Adam. Now they must be born of God.

How does God do this?
He sends the Holy Spirit to apply the work of Jesus to them.

What does being placed in Christ entail?
Being given faith that places its trust in the person and work of Jesus.

We are dead in Adam. Made alive in Christ. Jesus paid the penalty for our sins---it is not our faith that pays the penalty. It is not our faith that applies the work of Christ to us. It is the Holy Spirit who does that in the new birth.

 

[Carbon]

Arminians believe in Total Depravity...

But they do not fully understand it. If they did, they wouldn't believe in it.

 

[Arial]

But this is the start of knowledge.

It won't lead us to Christ. It won't give us spiritual understanding. It will not change our foolish and dark hearts. Redemption is not found in creation or in our wisdom, it is found only in Christ, and Christ is revealed in the word of God.

Paul says THEY KNOW GOD

And then in another book, says they can not understand the things of God.

So Paul must have thought they were different

He was talking about two different things. In Romans he is stating the condition of man and why they have no excuse for their behavior in suppressing the truth. He also says that God turned them over to their foolish and darkened hearts. In 1 Cor he is saying the natural man---the Romans 1 man---has lost his ability to understand spiritual things, they are foolishness to him. Just as Romans 1 says. It also says "what can be known about God is evident in the creation itself. What "can be known" implies that is all that can be known from creation. Everything else about him can only come from his revealing himself----which he does in the Bible, and to Abraham, Moses etc. And those things are foolishness to the natural man until and if he reveals them by who? The Holy Spirit. And the Holy Spirit does not indwell those he has not regenerated.

I have to go do some other things.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

This is my opinion concerning the free-will of man: In his primitive condition as he came out of the hands of his creator, man was endowed with such a portion of knowledge, holiness and power, as enabled him to understand, esteem, consider, will, and to perform the true good, according to the commandment delivered to him. Yet none of these acts could he do, except through the assistance of Divine Grace. But in his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. When he is made a partaker of this regeneration or renovation, I consider that, since he is delivered from sin, he is capable of thinking, willing and doing that which is good, but yet not without the continued aids of Divine Grace.

Arminius' Works - THE FREE-WILL OF MAN

Works of James Arminius. Sermons, theology, Bible dictionaries, and more are linked to this page

godrules.net

Thank you

 

[ReverendRV]

Thank you

You're welcome...

I'm not Arminian, but I don't mind using Arminianism when it's helpful. Hopefully, you can see you're not Arminian. You're probably a Provisionist; and do or don't know it...

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

"No one can see (or enter) the kingdom of heaven unless he is born again."

The kingdom of heaven is invisible so the "see" here is not visual but speaks of understanding. "Oh, I see!"

Why can sinners not enter the kingdom of heaven?
Because it is holy.

How is one cleansed of unrighteousness?

The Bible is clear how
1 The death of christ propitiated (satisfied Gods wrath) them
2. The blood of christ cleaned them as it washed their sins away and made them whiter than snow
3. The justifier justified them through the redemption found in christ jesus
4. All of this is done or completed when Mane comes to faith. Again, Romans 3 makes this clear.

By being placed in Christ and his righteousness imputed to them.

Yes, This is also called justification. Adam believed God and God imputed to abraham his own righteousness through this faith

How is one placed in Christ?
By being born again since they were first born in Adam. Now they must be born of God.

Yes,

How does God do this?
He sends the Holy Spirit to apply the work of Jesus to them.

Yes, But first, he must convict them, Convince them, and teach them. So that they will make a choice to recieve Gods grace

What does being placed in Christ entail?
Being given faith that places its trust in the person and work of Jesus.

yes, Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word.

It is not given, It must be earned.

We are dead in Adam. Made alive in Christ. Jesus paid the penalty for our sins---it is not our faith that pays the penalty. It is not our faith that applies the work of Christ to us. It is the Holy Spirit who does that in the new birth.

It is faith in God that allows God to apply the saving grace.

He will not force it on you. Thats wht a loving father does. He offers his children the good things in life. But he does not force them to take them, When they refuse, He is saddened.. It does not mean he stops loving them.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You're welcome...

I'm not Arminian, but I don't mind using Arminianism when it's helpful. Hopefully, you can see you're not Arminian. You're probably a Provisionist; and do or don't know it...

I am a born again, Blood bought, Adopted. Child of God

God is my abba father, where I can come to the throne of grace boldly

He save me and gave me his spirit as a pledge.

While I am not perfect. Nor do i have perfect theological beliefs (I personally do not think anyone does) I a confident of this thing, He who began a good work in me will complete it until the day of christ.

I used to believe in labels. I was a baptist. But those labels did me wrong, because people saw me as that label and not for who I am. So i stopped using them. And I do not need them.

If you need them, thats great. I will try to learn them so I understand you.. and if you want me to look at a label and see if it fits my belief system, Will will gladly look and let you know..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You're welcome...

I'm not Arminian, but I don't mind using Arminianism when it's helpful. Hopefully, you can see you're not Arminian. You're probably a Provisionist; and do or don't know it...

By the way I know I am not an arminian thats what I gather from the many people I have chatted with in these discussion for years.. I agree. Most peole i see defending calvinism are not really calvinist. And most people i see attacking calvinists are not really arminians, even though they are in an arminian vs calvin thread.

Sometimes I just have to laugh.

In many chat rooms as I have said. I have been called arminian by people defending TULIP and I have been called Calvinist, because I believe in eternal security.

 

[Carbon]

You're welcome...

I'm not Arminian, but I don't mind using Arminianism when it's helpful. Hopefully, you can see you're not Arminian. You're probably a Provisionist; and do or don't know it...

A provisionest? Haha. Oh boy.

 

[ReverendRV]

By the way I know I am not an arminian thats what I gather from the many people I have cheated with in these discussion for years.. I agree. Most peole i see defending calvinism are not really calvinist. And most people i see attacking calvinists are not really arminians, even though they are in an arminian vs calvin thread.

Sometimes I just have to laugh.

In many chat rooms as I have said. I have been called arminian by people defending TULIP and I have been called Calvinist, because I believe in eternal security.

Well said...

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

A provisionest? Haha. Oh boy.

Another reason we should not try to label people. Here is a note on provisionalism. I have. Hilighted in red parts I do not believe or agree with.

If this is provisionism, I am not a provisionist

Understanding Provisionism: A Theological Perspective​

Provisionism is a relatively new theological stance within Christian circles, gaining prominence through the work of theologian Leighton Flowers and adopted by many Southern and Independent Baptists. Though it bears similarities to Arminianism and Semi-pelagianism, it also has distinct differences, particularly regarding views on eternal security and prevenient grace. At its core, Provisionism emphasizes the sufficiency of the gospel—God’s Word empowered by the Holy Spirit—to enable a response from all who hear the call to be reconciled with God (John 6:63; Hebrews 4:12).

Core Tenets of Provisionism​

Provisionism can be summarized by the acrostic PROVIDE:

• People sin: Sin has separated all from fellowship with God.
• Responsible: Humans are able to respond to God's appeals for reconciliation. (But not on his own)
• Open door: Anyone may enter by faith; whosoever will may come to God’s open arms.
• Vicarious atonement: Christ's atoning sacrifice provides a way for anyone to be saved.
• Illuminating grace: God's grace reveals truth clearly so that all can know and respond in faith.
• Destroyed: Those who do not believe and resist the Holy Spirit face destruction.
• Eternal security: True believers are secure in their salvation eternally.

Differences from Classical Reformed Theology​

Provisionism diverges significantly from classical Reformed theology on several key points, particularly concerning total depravity, irresistible grace and limited atonement.

1. Total Depravity and Irresistible Grace: While Reformed theology posits that humanity is so corrupted by sin that they willfully reject Christ and salvation apart from God's merciful intervention to renew their hearts (John 3, 6:63. 65, 37) Provisionism asserts that all people, though sinful, are responsible and capable of responding to God's universal call to salvation (Titus 2:11). They can not come without Gods help
2. Limited Atonement: Reformed theology teaches that Christ died with the intent to save the elect, those predestined by God for salvation, as indicated in passages like John 17 and Revelation 5:9. Provisionism rejects this, holding that Christ’s atonement was for all humanity, as indicated in passages like 1 John 2:2 and Romans 10:11-13. John 3

Theological Implications​

Provisionism’s stance leads to several theological positions that differentiate it from both Calvinism and traditional Arminianism:

• Moral Nature Post-Fall: Provisionism maintains that the Fall did not fundamentally alter human moral nature but rather removed humanity from the light of God, which, if accessed, humans can still perceive. Unlike Arminianism, it denies a complete loss of ability that needs to be restored through prevenient grace.
• Salvation Instruments: It posits that external instruments like the gospel message are sufficient for salvation, rejecting the necessity of any supernatural internal work, including the non-effectual prevenient grace espoused by Arminians.
• Atonement’s Scope: The atonement did not purchase a change of heart prerequisite to faith for anyone, not even the elect. This contrasts with the Calvinist view that the atonement is effective for the elect and with Arminianism, which holds that prevenient grace enables a faith response.Not even sure what this means
• Sin Imputation: Adam’s sin is not immediately imputed to humanity. People are deemed sinners only after personal sin, inheriting non-condemnatory consequences rather than a sinful nature. Totally false. In Adam ALL die.
• Election: There is no individual election unto salvation; rather, it is the concept that people may be saved by faith, indefinite regarding specific individuals. Misleading
• Foreknowledge: God’s definite foreknowledge is accepted, but its basis remains unknown and is not grounded in divine being, foresight, or choices between possible worlds. Have no idea where this comes from nor do i know anyone who would agree
• Distribution of Salvation: The uneven distribution of saved individuals across time and geography underscores ultimate self-determination and libertarian free will. Not me
• Equal Desire for Salvation: God desires all individuals to be saved equally but does not grant equal access to the gospel, which influences the probability of salvation. Totally False
• Open Theism: Provisionism does not view open theism as heretical, instead advocating for a sympathetic and inclusive stance toward open theists within the church community. Another term I need to look up.

Conclusion​

Provisionism presents a distinct theological framework that emphasizes human responsibility and the universal scope of Christ's atonement. It challenges classical Reformed doctrines by asserting the sufficiency of the gospel and the capability of all individuals to respond to God's call. While it remains outside the bounds of traditional Reformed orthodoxy, it offers a perspective that aligns closely with many Southern and Independent Baptist beliefs, promoting a theology that underscores the universal offer of salvation and eternal security for believers.

As a baptist for many years. I do not know of any who follow this theology

 

[Carbon]

Another reason we should not try to label people. Here is a note on provisionalism. I have. Hilighted in red parts I do not believe or agree with.

I see nothing wrong with labels. If they are done for the right reasons.

If this is provisionism, I am not a provisionist

I am glad you are not. I believe provisionism is heresey.