Can the external call of the gospel by itself produce faith in the heart of the natural man?

[makesends]

You have read into scripture here by presenting right and power as equivalents, and they are not. Only the KJV translates exousian as "power", and even then it is not being used to say that the power of decision for salvation is granted as you imply. Here is a breakdown of the word from ChatGPT

Word Study:​

1.​

• Lexical Form: ἐξουσία
• Parsing:
  • Case: Accusative
  • Gender: Feminine
  • Number: Singular
• Used as: Object of the verb ἔδωκεν ("he gave")

---

2.​

ἐξουσία is commonly translated as:

• Authority
• Right
• Power
• Liberty
• Jurisdiction (in legal contexts)

Basic sense:​

---

3.​

In this context, ἐξουσίαν refers to:


This is not raw power (as in physical might), but authorized status — like having citizenship papers, adoption rights, or legal entitlement. It means those who believe are legally and relationally given the standing of God’s children.

---

4.​

• The verse does not say people already are God's children by nature.
• Rather, those who receive Christ are granted this right/authority to become children of God — it is graciously given, not naturally held.
• It ties into new birth, adoption, and justification themes.

---

end of ChatGPT

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Has nothing to do with what they did, what Christ did for them.

Thats not what John said

it says they received him..

They have eternal redemption because God received Christs Offering and delivered them from the penalty of sin. Has nothing to do with what they did, their receiving didn't do it, their believing didn't do it.

your right. their believeing did not do it. God did

But God did not force them to receive it. He chose of his own sovereignty to give them the opportunity to recieve it. Or reject it.

In the end. God gets all the glory.

Man gets non.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You have read into scripture here by presenting right and power as equivalents, and they are not. Only the KJV translates exousian as "power", and even then it is not being used to say that the power of decision for salvation is granted as you imply. Here is a breakdown of the word from ChatGPT

Word Study:​

1.​

• Lexical Form: ἐξουσία
• Parsing:
  • Case: Accusative
  • Gender: Feminine
  • Number: Singular
• Used as: Object of the verb ἔδωκεν ("he gave")

---

2.​

ἐξουσία is commonly translated as:

• Authority
• Right
• Power
• Liberty
• Jurisdiction (in legal contexts)

Basic sense:​

---

3.​

In this context, ἐξουσίαν refers to:


This is not raw power (as in physical might), but authorized status — like having citizenship papers, adoption rights, or legal entitlement. It means those who believe are legally and relationally given the standing of God’s children.

---

4.​

• The verse does not say people already are God's children by nature.
• Rather, those who receive Christ are granted this right/authority to become children of God — it is graciously given, not naturally held.
• It ties into new birth, adoption, and justification themes.

---

end of ChatGPT

But as many as have received him.

These people are granted the right to become children of God. even to those who believe

Your right, They were not Gods children by nature. they were dead to God. they were in a condemned state (john 3) they were under the wage of sin, they were dead in trespasses and sins. They were lost. without hope.

Until they received him.

again, God does not force people to believe. he gives them the option

Believe (recieve) and I will give you my gift of life

continue to remain in unbelief. and I will continue to hold you condemned.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Does your Bible give the Greek meaning of the word translated "right" and in the KJV translated "power" so that the passage is correctly interpreted instead of just picking what suits the already held belief?

If you are suggesting that a breakdown from ChatGPT is worthless because it said what it said when you asked if it could lie, then look it up in an interlinear and find out if it did. You will discover that if you go to Strongs (which I did but chat was more condensed and therefore more practical to copy/past) says the same thing.

some of us have access to the greek word. (I use Logos Bible with many language resources and other resources including commentaries. lexicons, greek/hebrew sources..)

Some of us study to make sure we understand on questionable passages

some of us do not take any english bible as 100% correct.

just saying

 

[brightfame52]

Thats not what John said

it says they received him..

your right. their believeing did not do it. God did

But God did not force them to receive it. He chose of his own sovereignty to give them the opportunity to recieve it. Or reject it.

In the end. God gets all the glory.

Man gets non.

This nonsense isnt even scriptural, i dont even know what in the world you talking about. God giving opportunities to reject or accept

 

[Eleanor]

Thats not what John said
it says they received him..
your right. their believeing did not do it. God did
But God did not force them to receive it. He chose of his own sovereignty to give them the opportunity to recieve it. Or reject it.
In the end. God gets all the glory.
Man gets non.

Take a look at 1 Co 2:14. . .no one "receives" him apart from the Holy Spirit in the new birth, for the things of God are "foolishness to him and he cannot understand it."

They cannot even see the kingdom of God without the new birth by the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5), like the wind, depending on nothing but his sovereign choice to do so (Jn 3:6-8).

 

[Eleanor]

Thats not what John said
it says they received him..
your right. their believeing did not do it. God did
But God did not force them to receive it. He chose of his own sovereignty to give them the opportunity to recieve it. Or reject it.
In the end. God gets all the glory.
Man gets non.

There is no accepting or rejecting the things of God.

Either your heart is made willing and you receive what is offered to all,
or your heart remains in its natural state of unwillingness and naturally rejects what is offered to all.

 

[Arial]

Until they received him.

again, God does not force people to believe. he gives them the option

Where does Scripture say that?
Is it consistent with who God declares himself to be?

What if you were to nix the loaded word "force" and replace it with "grant", which is more in line with what the scriptures declare, and it never uses the word "force" or the implication of force in either the scriptures or Reformed theology.

John 6: 64-65 "But there are some of you who do not believe.: (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who gives them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Eph 2 1. And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked------.4. But God,----made us alive together with Christ---.

In just those three examples, no "option" or "force" is mentioned, or inferred, or implied.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

This nonsense isnt even scriptural, i dont even know what in the world you talking about. God giving opportunities to reject or accept

and this is why I try not to respond to you. its a waste of time, and this is the usual response anyone gets back.

its not all about you my friend..

Believe what you want,

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Where does Scripture say that?
Is it consistent with who God declares himself to be?

It said it in the very passage you tried to correct me on. Trying to focus on 2 english words and 2 bible versions.

But as many as have recieved him TO THM!!!!!!!

but more than this

John 1, John 3, John 4, John 5 John 6 to name a few.

who are the ones who were made children of God. who were the ones who were born again. Who were the ones who were given living water
Who were the ones who passed from death to life. and who are the ones who were given the multitude of promises in John 6?

those who recieve him in faith.

What if you were to nix the loaded word "force" and replace it with "grant",

That may help you. But it does not help reality.

If God made you have faith without giving you the ability to chose or reject him. He forced you.

which is more in line with what the scriptures declare, and it never uses the word "force" or the implication of force in either the scriptures or Reformed theology.

Well yes. But that would support my view.. God granted me the ability to be savged by grace. but he did not just force me to accept or rect his offer. He gave me the ability to say yes Lord or No lord.

In the end, he gets the honor and glory

Because he purchased the salvation of those saved with his blood, he gets all credit

He also purchased the gift for those who will die in unbelief. again, He is glorified. because he showed his love to them, they rejected him, he did not reject them

John 6: 64-65 "But there are some of you who do not believe.: (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who gives them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Eph 2 1. And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked------.4. But God,----made us alive together with Christ---.

In just those three examples, no "option" or "force" is mentioned, or inferred, or implied.

In all three of those passages, the word faith comers into play

In John 6. Jesus said it is the will of the father that whoever sees and believes......

John 10 is talking to Jews.. who thought they were his sheep. But they heard and did not believe..

and eph 2: 1 says it is by grace we have been saved.. through faith

You can not remove faith from the equation my friend.

Well you can if you desire. But I in all honestly, can not and take the word or God seriously

 

[Eleanor]

It said it in the very passage you tried to correct me on. Trying to focus on 2 english words and 2 bible versions.
But as many as have recieved him TO THM!!!!!!!
but more than this
John 1, John 3, John 4, John 5 John 6 to name a few.
who are the ones who were made children of God. who were the ones who were born again. Who were the ones who were given living water
Who were the ones who passed from death to life. and who are the ones who were given the multitude of promises in John 6?

those who recieve him in faith.
That may help you. But it does not help reality.
If God made you have faith without giving you the ability to chose or reject him. He forced you.

Au contraire. . .

No force involved. . .free will is the power to choose what one prefers.

He made me willing, and I freely chose what I preferred.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Many are called. yet few are chosen.

so I would say the answer can the call of God alone cause a person to repent is no.

Scripture and experience shows God uses many things to draw people to himself..

Even Israel. God called them, Told them when he would come. and what he would do when he came. and he fulfilled those things even up to the date.

Yet they were not willing. But not because God did not call them, He did. with everything he did

But they refused to believe.. The law, which was supposed to show them the way. instead became a stumbling lock. because they failed to interpret the law right.

 

[Arial]

But as many as have recieved him TO THM!!!!!!!

but more than this

John 1, John 3, John 4, John 5 John 6 to name a few.

who are the ones who were made children of God. who were the ones who were born again. Who were the ones who were given living water
Who were the ones who passed from death to life. and who are the ones who were given the multitude of promises in John 6?

those who recieve him in faith.

Sure. But where is the statement or even implication in any of those verses that states an option is being offered. If we believe, we have eternal life.

If we don't believe, we are condemned already.

Can we believe and reject what we believe at the same time? If believing is all that is required for eternal life, don't we have it when we believe? And if we have it, and it is eternal, can we cease to have it?

How does what I see as your eisegesis of choice into such passages align with who God reveals himself to be?

In John 6. Jesus said it is the will of the father that whoever sees and believes......

In the portion of John 6 that I quoted to be discussed it says two things. That only those who God grants to come to him will come to him. And that these are the ones that he is giving to Jesus. So, when it says that whoever sees and believes--- that cannot divorced from this. By not divorcing the two things, we are able to gain a correct understanding of both. One will not contradict the other.

and eph 2: 1 says it is by grace we have been saved.. through faith

You can not remove faith from the equation my friend.

I am not removing faith from the equation. I am directing the passage to what we are specifically talking about, because it is an affirmation of what I am positing. Bringing by grace you are saved through faith, into the conversation instead of dealing with what was being pointed out, may not intentionally be a red herring, but without addressing the issues and the portion I quoted in connection with the issue, it works like one. So can we go back and do that? So we don't get all haywire and unproductive. I am willing to listen to you, but I need to have what I bring up in connection to the discussion addressed and, of course, questions I ask, answered. I will do the same with your posts.

But they refused to believe.. The law, which was supposed to show them the way. instead became a stumbling lock. because they failed to interpret the law right.

In the first two passages I gave, one from John 6 and the other from John 10, why does Jesus say that they don't believe? So you don't have to go back and look it up, here they are again.

But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said,"This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

"I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are no among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

John 10 is talking to Jews.. who thought they were his sheep. But they heard and did not believe..

They did not think that they were Jesus' sheep. They did not even believe Jesus was who he said he was. They heard his voice, they saw him doing what only God can do, and they still didn't believe. And Jesus tells them why they didn't believe. Because they were not his sheep so when they heard his voice they did not follow him. Keep in mind, because it is easy to lose sight of the specific issue that is being discussed in our posts, since other issues with other people are going on at the same time. From your post #203 and my asking you where Scripture said that.

again, God does not force people to believe. he gives them the option

So, you used scriptures to show that it does say that and so on and so on. So do the scriptures I gave say something different than what you present your scriptures as saying? You need to tell me what they do say, rather than just jump to other scriptures. Thanks in advance.

 

[Arial]

That may help you. But it does not help reality.

If God made you have faith without giving you the ability to chose or reject him. He forced you.

That is how you view it. But that does not mean that it is a correct view.

Would you consider making you alive when you are dead, giving you life, or forcing life upon you? Can a dead person choose life? God is not forcing a person to have faith, he is giving them faith. A faith they could never find on their own because they do not possess saving faith anywhere in them. Thanks be to God, he sent his Son to die himself in order to provide what is necessary for that faith to be given. The one in whom the faith rests.

Well yes. But that would support my view.. God granted me the ability to be savged by grace. but he did not just force me to accept or rect his offer. He gave me the ability to say yes Lord or No lord.

It doesn't support your view at all. I know to you it does, but you have to insert something in to the scriptures that just is not there. Scripture does not say that grace gives the ability to say yes Lord or no Lord. It says we are saved by grace----meaning we don't deserve it, never have, and never will deserve it----through faith. And it says that faith, saving faith in the person and work of Jesus, is a gift, so that no one can boast. Now why would those words "So that no one can boast" be in that sentence? That alone removes all supposed offer to accept or reject. Accepting would become no longer grace, but because of something we did. Accepted. And rejecting would no longer be because you were born in sin and do not deserve salvation, but because you rejected the offer.

 

[makesends]

But as many as have received him.

These people are granted the right to become children of God. even to those who believe

Your right, They were not Gods children by nature. they were dead to God. they were in a condemned state (john 3) they were under the wage of sin, they were dead in trespasses and sins. They were lost. without hope.

Until they received him.

again, God does not force people to believe. he gives them the option

Believe (recieve) and I will give you my gift of life

continue to remain in unbelief. and I will continue to hold you condemned.

A receptacle receives, not by the receptacle's choice, but by the use of the one handling that receptacle.

"Receptacle" —hmmm ...one might even say, "Vessel". Like in Romans 9.

 

[ReverendRV]

But as many as have received him.

These people are granted the right to become children of God. even to those who believe

God gives Believers the Right to become Adopted Children of God; Regeneration doesn't make anyone a Child of God; it just makes Us Spiritually Alive...

 

[makesends]

God gives Believers the Right to become Adopted Children of God; Regeneration doesn't make anyone a Child of God; it just makes Us Spiritually Alive...

I'm curious about your ordo salutis. Regeneration certainly doesn't fail to provide the way. I'd be careful about separating becoming a Child of God from regeneration.