Free Will

[Selah7]

Oh boy...Lord, should I lay out there just what I believe and how the Lord solved the great conundrum for me?

Sure! That’s what I do….even though I know I may be blasted by some. How else can we learn from each other? Iron sharpens iron or something like that.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Not at all Romans 12:2 uses the Greek word we get the English metamorphosis from to describe believers .

3339 metamorphóō (from 3326 /metá, "change after being with" and 3445/morphóō, "changing form in keeping with inner reality") – properly, transformed after being with; transfigured.

[3339 (metamorphóō) is the root of the English terms "metamorphosis" and "metamorphize."]

Matthew 17:2 V-AIP-3S
GRK: καὶ μετεμορφώθη ἔμπροσθεν αὐτῶν
NAS: And He was transfigured before
KJV: And was transfigured before them:
INT: And he was transfigured before them

Mark 9:2 V-AIP-3S
GRK: μόνους καὶ μετεμορφώθη ἔμπροσθεν αὐτῶν
NAS: by themselves. And He was transfigured before
KJV: and he was transfigured before
INT: alone And he was transfiguredbefore them

Romans 12:2 V-PMM/P-2P
GRK: τούτῳ ἀλλὰ μεταμορφοῦσθε τῇ ἀνακαινώσει
NAS: world, but be transformed by the renewing
KJV: but be ye transformed by the renewing
INT: this but be transformed by the renewing

Specifically, you talked about "as we think so we become", and it set some alarm bells ringing for me.

 

[Carbon]

Even the elect?

Yes, I believe so. Until regeneration that is.

because I believe that an elect person will surely excitedly believe when first presented with God's Word. In other words, more than likely, an elect person will not be “determined not to seek God.”

Okay.

Why? because it’s already been made known to them before the foundation of the world. They have “eyes to see and ears to hear and therefore, they would, upon even the first reading or hearing of the gospel, discern that it is true because

Well I believe they receive those eyes to see and ears to hear from the new life, - regeneration. Not before.

“…he (God) hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:”

But this is not talking about us being born knowing this. Do you see it that way?

Just my thoughts; just trying to understand and learn … selah

No problem. This is how we sharpen each other.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

So here's the thing for me: Paul said God foreknows and predestines the elect before the foundation of the world (universe coming into existence). Why would he use 2 different words if they mean the same thing? He used both words because they are different and he joined them together. If someone says the concept of predestination is wrong in ANY way, that person does not know the Bible or God has given them over to a delusion.

 

[Carbon]

we were in a cocoon but a metamorphis took placed and we were changed into a butterfly that could fly. we become what we think , a worm or a butterfly- who do you want to be, live in the mud like a worm or fly with wings like a buttterfly

Neither actually.

 

[Carbon]

Oh boy...Lord, should I lay out there just what I believe and how the Lord solved the great conundrum for me?

Indeed

 

[Selah7]

Yes, I believe so. Until regeneration that is.

Okay.

Well I believe they receive those eyes to see and ears to hear from the new life, - regeneration. Not before.

But this is not talking about us being born knowing this. Do you see it that way?

No problem. This is how we sharpen each other.

Ah! Now I see what you’re saying. I’ll surely consider that. …selah-ing…

 

[civic]

Specifically, you talked about "as we think so we become", and it set some alarm bells ringing for me.

As a man thinketh so us he in his heart . Your mind and heart must work together .

 

[Alive]

Perhaps after I finish working on this roof frame.

 

[Carbon]

Now I believe Gods grace can be resisted whereas before I did not. His grace always precedes everything in the salvation process. Gods grace is always prevenient.

I guess that would depend on when regeneration (the new birth) takes place. I think before regeneration you won’t find anyone who don’t resist. To the general call that it.

 

[Eleanor]

The rest of the post #109 above:

@Behold said: He (Calvin) redefined "Fore Knowledge" as "God Causes", and away he went....

Eleanor replies:The first things we must do is look at how the word "foreknowledge" (Gr: prognosis) is used in the Bible, and it is used only of divine foreknowledge, of God foreknowing his actions. It is not used of God foreknowing man's actions.
And Gd knows in advance (foreknowledge) what is going to happen because he himself has decreed before the foundations of the world that it shall happen.
Divine foreknowledge is not God causing it to happen, it is God knowing in advance what will happen, because he has decreed that it shall happen.
Divine foreknowledge (prognosis) in the NT, as distinct from man's foreknowledge, is God foreknowing his own actions, it is not God causing them, for they were already caused, which is why he foreknows them.

 

[Carbon]

The rest of the post #109 above:

The first things we must do is look at how the word "foreknowledge" (Gr: prognosis) is used in the Bible and it is used only of divine foreknowledge, of God foreknowing his actions. It is no use of God foreknowing man's actions.
And Gd knows in advance (foreknowledge wht is going to happen because he himself has decreed before the foundations of the world that it shall happen.
Divine foreknowledge is not God causing it to happen, it is God knowing in advance what will happen, because he has decreed that it shall happen.
Divine foreknowledge (prognosis) in the NT, as distinct from man's foreknowledge, is God foreknowing his own actions, it is not God causing them, for they were already caused, which is why he foreknows them.

Plus I believe it is more intimate than many think. The elect being the objects of His love, He foreknows. I think if we miss this part we miss the most important.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Dictionary definition: -

predestined
[priːˈdɛstɪnd, prɪˈdɛstɪnd]

ADJECTIVE

1. (of an outcome or course of events) determined in advance by divine will or fate:
   "our predestined end"
   
   
   And some say that the word "Predestined" doesn't mean what it says it means by definition. There is no helping such.
   
   
   
   

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

As a man thinketh so us he in his heart . Your mind and heart must work together .

Be careful. It's not the law of attraction.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Plus I believe it is more intimate than many think. The elect being the objects of His love, He foreknows. I think if we miss this part we miss the most important.

If God puts His finger on you and chooses you before the universe even exists, did he also cancel it out later because He changed his mind about you based on your choices?

I don't think so.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Prevenient grace means PRE - Before, before salvation in other words. It isn't post salvation and as far as I know there is nobody that argues for that in the Reformed camp.

It's literally amazing to me that a person could look back on their own salvation moment and think it was them that had something to do with it. This is because a person can believe in God and Jesus Christ, but until the Holy Spirit of God actually intervenes and gives them a faith to salvation, it remains just an unregenerated lost person.

 

[Eleanor]

Even the elect? because I believe that an elect person will surely excitedly believe when first presented with God's Word. In other words, more than likely, an elect person will not be “determined not to seek God.” Why? because it’s already been made known to them before the foundation of the world. They have “eyes to see and ears to hear and therefore, they would, upon even the first reading or hearing of the gospel, discern that it is true because “…he (God) hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:”

Just my thoughts; just trying to understand and learn … selah

Actually, seeing is the result of the new birth, given by the sovereign Holy Spirit, his choice of whom being as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:3-8).

 

[Eleanor]

we were in a cocoon but a metamorphis took placed and we were changed into a butterfly that could fly. we become what we think , a worm or a butterfly- who do you want to be, live in the mud like a worm or fly with wings like a buttterfly

We become what we think? We don't "think" our way from unregenerate to regenerate.

 

[Eleanor]

Not at all Romans 12:2 uses the Greek word we get the English metamorphosis from to describe believers .
3339 metamorphóō (from 3326 /metá, "change after being with" and 3445/morphóō, "changing form in keeping with inner reality") – properly, transformed after being with; transfigured.
[3339 (metamorphóō) is the root of the English terms "metamorphosis" and "metamorphize."]

Matthew 17:2 V-AIP-3S
GRK: καὶ μετεμορφώθη ἔμπροσθεν αὐτῶν
NAS: And He was transfigured before
KJV: And was transfigured before them:
INT: And he was transfigured before them

Mark 9:2 V-AIP-3S
GRK: μόνους καὶ μετεμορφώθη ἔμπροσθεν αὐτῶν
NAS: by themselves. And He was transfigured before
KJV: and he was transfigured before
INT: alone And he was transfiguredbefore them

Romans 12:2 V-PMM/P-2P
GRK: τούτῳ ἀλλὰ μεταμορφοῦσθε τῇ ἀνακαινώσει
NAS: world, but be transformed by the renewing
KJV: but be ye transformed by the renewing
INT: this but be transformed by the renewing

Correct, but Ro 12:2 does not state it is accomplished by our "thinking."

 

[Eleanor]

So here's the thing for me: Paul said God foreknows and predestines the elect before the foundation of the world (universe coming into existence). Why would he use 2 different words if they mean the same thing? He used both words because they are different and he joined them together. If someone says the concept of predestination is wrong in ANY way, that person does not know the Bible or God has given them over to a delusion.

They are part of the same election.

He foreknows whom he will choose, and then elects (chooses) them at a point in time when they arrive on earth in human birth.