Free Will

[ReverendRV]

You know me I love to talk about faith.

Sola Fide!

Sola Fiducia?

 

[Eleanor]

I think another following question should be why does man believe that man must have free will concerning eternal matters.

Precisely.

Scriptures is not concerned with "free will."

That's a philosophical notion of man.

 

[Eleanor]

Re: I think another following question should be why does man believe that man must have free will concerning eternal matters

It's instinctive. Anytime I have a thought I automatically think I independently self-determined to said thought. Save for scripture I have no reason to think that there is another "first cause" other than myself.
When it comes to evil thoughts then Calvinists got to "it's a mystery".

It was of the argument that man must have free will to be morally accountable.

 

[Eleanor]

I see it as man thinking he has the right to go to heaven if he wants to. So, it is up to him.

And I also see in it (their belief in demanding free will choosing) that if it is up to God, then it is unfair, like God did someone wrong somewhere.

It bleeds through with a belief that God owes man a chance to get to heaven if man wants to be there.

Or that he is not responsible for his damnation without it.

 

[civic]

Precisely.

Scriptures is not concerned with "free will."

That's a philosophical notion of man.

what about the freedom to choose or believe/reject the gospel ?

If man is responsible for his sins and accountable to God then it stands to reason man has chosen to sin, live in sin and reject God by his own will. Man is culpable for his sin. I'm not at all saying that God does not act first by His grace in drawing a man, convicting a man of his sin and guilt. I 100% believe God acts first monergistically in drawing man, convicting him of his sins in the salvation process. I believe man after that conviction and drawing must place his faith in the gospel, in the Son for his salvation. We must believe that is on us not God. And I do not believe that removes or takes any glory away from God because its God doing the drawing to Himself and the convicting of sin that leads to faith and repentance of said sins. Salvation is 100 % Gods doing but man must believe- thats on him. Unbelief keeps one condemned whereas faith/belief saves a person.

And I'm very familiar with all of the passages where faith is said to be a gift. I just see those passages differently and that those passages are talking about those already saved who are in the body of Christ. I know that is debatable just the same way Ephesians 2:8-9 is debatable depending if one is a monergist or a synergist, Calvinist or Arminian.

 

[Eleanor]

it depends on the definition of T.D. but then I'm not sure I would agree. Take for instance an unsaved Father and Son. Doesn't the son believe/trust that his father has his best interest at heart and looks out for his well being ? Jesus even implies this is the case below.

Matthew 7:11- If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

I'm having a "dense" moment here.

Saving faith is belief in and trust on the atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin (salvation) and right standing with God's justice (justification).

How is that related to your question above?

 

[civic]

I'm having a "dense" moment here.

Saving faith is belief in and trust on the atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin (salvation) and right standing with God's justice (justification).

How is that related to your question above/

It was a response to Rev's post/question "Fiducia Belief "

 

[Eleanor]

what about the freedom to choose or believe/reject the gospel ?
If man is responsible for his sins and accountable to God then it stands to reason man has chosen to sin, live in sin and reject God by his own will. Man is culpable for his sin.

Ah, yes. That is where the concept of free will got into it in the first few centuries of the church, as the solution to man's question regarding his just accountability for sin.

It's not a Biblical concern.

 

[Eleanor]

It was a response to Rev's post/question "Fiducia Belief "

That was not my question.

 

[civic]

That was not my question.

I know I was responding to Reverends post. It wasn't related to your question and has no relevance.

 

[ReverendRV]

It was a response to Rev's post/question "Fiducia Belief "

I reckon Carbon isn't concerned about the discussion of Assensus and Fiducia Belief...

Are they two different Kinds of Will, as Eros and Phileo are two different Kinds of Love? And would a difference in Fiducia and Assensus Belief be different because one is more Free than the other, or Free in different ways?

 

[Eleanor]

I reckon Carbon isn't concerned about the discussion of Assensus and Fiducia Belief...

Are they two different Kinds of Will, as Eros and Phileo are two different Kinds of Love? And would a difference in Fiducia and Assensus Belief be different because one is more Free than the other, or Free in different ways?

Assesus would be intellectual assent, and fiducia would be trusting on.

 

[Josheb]

“That the Will is always determined by the strongest motive,”
Edwards.


Does man have free will?

Define "free."

I think the question is kind of vague, but I have heard it many times. I have been back and forth on it throughout the years. Presently, I believe man does have free will but, in accordance with his nature.

Then it is not free.

I do not believe the natural man can choose Christ.

Then the will is not free.

Faith includes three elements, knowledge, assent, and trust.

Probably worth its own op, but conceded for the sake of this one.

These three the natural man does not possess about Jesus.

Then he is not free.

Man must be made alive to see the kingdom.

Yep. Plainly stated in John 3:3.

Once this takes place through regeneration, and he can see the kingdom, Christ is irresistible.

Ooooo....

Define regeneration.
Prove, or at least evidence seeing the kingdom "takes place through regeneration."
Define "irresistible."

These terms are used diversely and ought to be defined before being discussed or debated so 1) everyone has a shared and agreed upon definition, and 2) everyone used the shared term and agreed upon definition in like manner. Did Edwards do so, or did he assume everyone already commonly understood the terms?

Then, as Edwards said above, applies as far as spiritual things are concerned.

Edwards was a smart guy but it's already been demonstrated there are internal contradictions (more than one) in these words. A person lacking knowledge or limited to any given nature is not "free" in the ordinary, normal meaning of the word.

Before the new birth, man is at enmity with God

Yep. Romans 1 and 8 clearly assert that very position.

...and will not choose Him.

John 6:44? I'd use the word "do" instead of "will".

So it is impossible for the word itself to produce faith in the heart of the natural man.

You mean the written word alone, yes? Salvation is very much about the incarnate Word producing faith in the heart of the natural man. That is the essence of monergism. Christ must do it because we cannot.

He is determined not to seek God.

Yep. The sinfully dead and enslaved (not free) individual is determined not to seek God and had God not revealed Himself it's doubtful the dead Pennsylvanian peat bog amoeba would have any awareness of the Antarctic Blue Whale, let alone the externally existing Creator of both amoeba and whale, bog and ocean.

Thoughts?

Just a few .

 

[Carbon]

Define "free."

Then it is not free.

Then the will is not free.

Probably worth its own op, but conceded for the sake of this one.

Then he is not free.

Then he is not free. I agree, but that takes it to another level.

“That the Will is always determined by the strongest motive,”
Edwards.

 

[Carbon]

You mean the written word alone, yes?

Of course, you don't get that from what I said and believe? I think you know what I believe by now. Maybe not?

 

[Alive]

The kernal of freedom and freedom of will is directly related to and defined in dynamism and limits by the nature of how and by what the creature is animated. What is the source?
I believe more and more, the key is in an understsnding of the meaning of ‘spirit’ in scripture.

 

[Behold]

Something to consider...


John made Calvinist's.

God made Christians.

Its not the same thing.


Let me ask you a question, reader.

If you were on the street, and you met someone in the park, and you said... """are you a Christian"", and they said.... "yes, im a Buddhist'"?
What would you think?
So, if you asked the next one on the park bench... "are you a Christian", and they said... "Yet, im a Calvinist"..

Now, do you see the issue?
There is one.

 

[Alive]

Yes…always the Centrality of Christ.
If He is not at the center and if He is not our single Source for all, then we need to address why not.

 

[fastfredy0]

If you were on the street, and you met someone in the park, and you said... """are you a Christian"", and they said.... "yes, im a Buddhist'"?
What would you think?
So, if you asked the next one on the park bench... "are you a Christian", and they said... "Yet, im a Calvinist"..

So if you asked the next one on the park bench... "are you a Christian, and the said... "Yes, but I'm not a Calvinist" ...
What do you think?
Now do you see the issue with your logic? Non sequator, (an inference or conclusion that does not follow from the premises or evidence).

 

[Behold]

Lets say that "God is Love".

Now, lets say you and your wife or you and your husband are going to have twins.

Its 6 months into the pregnancy, and its 2 boys...

'Tristan and "Alexander'.

3 months to go...

Now, If God has pre-destined Alexander to not be a Christian, then that means that Alexander has no CHOICE but to go to Hell, as he's been pre-selected - pre-destined to burn in the Lake of Fire, before He even came out of the womb and grew up and had a chance to Trust in Christ and go to Heaven.

Now ask yourself.. What did He do to deserve that situation?...,
Did Alexander ask to be born ?

Now ask yourself, is that a loving God?, "God is Love"? ?That would cause that?

And then one more...

If a person is sent to eternal damnation for being a Christ Rejector.. .and yet God chose them to not be a "pre-destined-elect", then God caused what He is sending them to Hell for,.... isn't He.

So, is that "God is Love"?

Is that "Righteous judgement"?