Free Will

[Carbon]

“That the Will is always determined by the strongest motive,”
Edwards.


Does man have free will? I think the question is kind of vague, but I have heard it many times. I have been back and forth on it throughout the years. Presently, I believe man does have free will but, in accordance with his nature. I do not believe the natural man can choose Christ. Faith includes three elements, knowledge, assent, and trust. These three the natural man does not possess about Jesus. Man must be made alive to see the kingdom. Once this takes place through regeneration, and he can see the kingdom, Christ is irresistible.
Then, as Edwards said above, applies as far as spiritual things are concerned.

Before the new birth, man is at enmity with God, and will not choose Him. So it is impossible for the word itself to produce faith in the heart of the natural man. He is determined not to seek God.

Thoughts?

 

[ReverendRV]

<snip> Does man have free will? I think the question is kind of vague, but I have heard it many times. I have been back and forth on it throughout the years. Presently, I believe man does have free will but, in accordance with his nature. I do not believe the natural man can choose Christ. Faith includes three elements, knowledge, assent, and trust. These three the natural man does not possess about Jesus. Man must be made alive to see the kingdom. Once this takes place through regeneration, and he can see the kingdom, Christ is irresistible.
Then, as Edwards said above, applies as far as spiritual things are concerned.

Before the new birth, man is at enmity with God, and will not choose Him. So it is impossible for the word itself to produce faith in the heart of the natural man. He is determined not to seek God.

Thoughts?

Ah; Notia, Assensus and Fiducia...

If I spelled them right...

 

[Carbon]

Ah; Notia, Assensus and Fiducia...

If I spelled them right...

I think you did. When I looked I saw John 3:16. Which I find interesting.

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16.

The whosoever that believes, should realize that as a confirmation.

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 1 John 5:1.

 

[ReverendRV]

I think you did. When I looked I saw John 3:16. Which I find interesting.

“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16.

The whosoever that believes, should realize that as a confirmation.

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 1 John 5:1.

There are a few ways of looking at the free will debate. Looking at Notia, Asensus and Fiducia is a good way of looking at it. Fiducia is a Gift...

 

[ReverendRV]

There are a few ways of looking at the free will debate. Looking at Notia, Asensus and Fiducia is a good way of looking at it. Fiducia is a Gift...

I suppose a good question would be, shouldn't Arminians believe that you cannot have Fiducia Belief until Total Depravity has been handled? @civic

 

[Carbon]

For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in relation to righteousness. Romans 6:20.

 

[ReverendRV]

For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in relation to righteousness. Romans 6:20.

I think that settles it. It settles that there's no 100% free will

 

[ReverendRV]

“That the Will is always determined by the strongest motive,”
Edwards.


Does man have free will? I think the question is kind of vague, but I have heard it many times. I have been back and forth on it throughout the years. Presently, I believe man does have free will but, in accordance with his nature. I do not believe the natural man can choose Christ. Faith includes three elements, knowledge, assent, and trust. These three the natural man does not possess about Jesus. Man must be made alive to see the kingdom. Once this takes place through regeneration, and he can see the kingdom, Christ is irresistible.
Then, as Edwards said above, applies as far as spiritual things are concerned.

Before the new birth, man is at enmity with God, and will not choose Him. So it is impossible for the word itself to produce faith in the heart of the natural man. He is determined not to seek God.

Thoughts?

I don't see what the problem is for any Christian, to believe that since we are Saved by prevening Grace; after Grace we can Will to Believe, but not before. We have to wait for Grace first. This is basically what every Christian believes. But whenever it comes to the free will argument, it's as if they do not believe they're Saved by Grace...

I'm convinced that in the Church at large, everyone knows that they're Saved by Grace...

 

[fastfredy0]

I find in these debates the Free Will side will seldomly define the term. At best they tend to say "it's the ability to choose". When pressed to define the FREE part they won't do it. Refreshing of @Carbon to start with a definition.


If Free Will is defined as Self-determinism meaning one makes choices independent of God and any other influences then the only one that has free will is God.
Premise 1: From nothing nothing comes
Premise 2: God has always known all things
Premise 3: We were nothing at one time
Conclusion: Free Will as defined above is not possible for God knew all our choices when we were nothing and therefore said knowledge must come from His determination.
If God's knowledge of his creatures were derived from the creatures by the impression of anything upon him, as there is upon us, he could not know from eternity, because from eternity there was no actual existence of anything but himself; and therefore there could not be any images shot out from anything, because there was not anything in being but God. Stephen Charnock - The existence and Attributes of God

• God’s liberty of action (freedom) would be limited by the assumed powers and prerogatives of man’s “libertarian free will”.
• Can God be pleased/glorified with anything which does not have its origin in Himself? If “free will” be an actuality, then God is not glorified by the salvation of individuals
• God cannot will any other thing but himself as his end, because there is nothing superior to himself in goodness.
• Grace is sovereign, because God exercises it toward and bestows it upon whom He pleases: “Even so might grace reign“ (Romans 5:21).
• Romans 11:35 Who has first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?". Freewill implies independent righteousness that God robotically responses to
• Since knowledge is a perfection, if God's knowledge of the creatures depended upon the creatures, he would derive an excellency from them, they would derive no excellency from any idea in the Divine mind Stephen Charnock - The existence and Attributes of God
• The idea of ‘free will’ contradicts the observable fact the people’s beliefs correlate to the beliefs of their parents in a way that indisputably show one’s parents are an critical influence.
• Acts 20:35b It is more blessed [and brings greater joy] to give than to receive. If man can give something to God then man would be more blessed than God in that act.
• Job 41:11 Who has first given to Me, that I should repay him? Whatever is under the whole heavens is Mine. Free Will portends otherwise
• If there is some other power like man’s self-determination it would mean God is not all powerful.
• Partiality should be looked at from God’s point of view; He is partial to what He has done and not what any person has done.
• Free Will contradicts God's sovereignty

I could go on.

 

[Carbon]

I don't see what the problem is for any Christian, to believe that since we are Saved by prevening Grace;

Personally, I do not believe in prevenient grace. I don't even see it in the bible.

after Grace, we can Will to Believe.

After regeneration (saved by grace) "we are believing." I believe in our new heart we believe.

Or, can I say it this way? Because we are given a new heart through regeneration, the old has been crucified with Christ. Because of this new heart, "we are believers," it's nothing we must choose to do, but we realize Jesus is who he says he is, therefore we confess with our mouths, "Jesus you are Lord."

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10:10.

This is basically what every Christian believes. But whenever it comes to the free will argument, it's as if they do not believe they're Saved by Grace...

Well, Arminians believe in saved by grace, which makes them Christians. But it's prevenient grace, God woos them on, using people and scripture trying to convince them. Which has so many issues.

I'm convinced that in the Church at large, everyone knows that they're Saved by Grace...

Sure, But have them define grace. I bet a lot cannot define grace. But for the ones that can, I think you may get at least three answers.

Respectfully brother. I just wanted to explain the difference in how I understand it.

 

[Carbon]

I think another following question should be why does man believe that man must have free will concerning eternal matters.

Because he wants to be part of it, have a say in it. And just a little bit of the glory?

 

[ReverendRV]

Personally, I do not believe in prevenient grace. I don't even see it in the bible.

After regeneration (saved by grace) "we are believing." I believe in our new heart we believe.

Or, can I say it this way? Because we are given a new heart through regeneration, the old has been crucified with Christ. Because of this new heart, "we are believers," it's nothing we must choose to do, but we realize Jesus is who he says he is, therefore we confess with our mouths, "Jesus you are Lord."

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. Romans 10:10.



Well, Arminians believe in saved by grace, which makes them Christians. But it's prevenient grace, God woos them on, using people and scripture trying to convince them. Which has so many issues.

Sure, But have them define grace. I bet a lot cannot define grace. But for the ones that can, I think you may get at least three answers.

Respectfully brother. I just wanted to explain the difference in how I understand it.

Oh, I know the difference. Whenever I use the word prevening, I just mean that it goes before Faith (I thought y'all knew me by now ). I'm not saying that I agree with Arminian Prevenient Grace. Whenever I debate with people like Arminians or Provisionists, I will use words that they like or words similar to what they like; to get my point across. Even they believe that Grace goes before Faith. So it's ironic whenever they teach that Faith goes before Grace...

 

[fastfredy0]

Re: I think another following question should be why does man believe that man must have free will concerning eternal matters

It's instinctive. Anytime I have a thought I automatically think I independently self-determined to said thought. Save for scripture I have no reason to think that there is another "first cause" other than myself.
When it comes to evil thoughts then Calvinists got to "it's a mystery".

 

[Deleted member 6]

“A will that is truly free chooses nothing.”

Dr. James R. White

 

[MamaEtna]

God doesn't owe us anything. These verses are pretty clear on election.

And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. - Romans 9:10-13

 

[KatarinaVonBora]

Free will

 

[CCShorts]

My two cents…

In a theological discussion, it can be argued that the primary connotation of the term "free will" that matters is one that relates to God's involvement. Reframing the question as "Is human willing 'free' from God's determining or not?" directs the focus to the core theological issue at hand. By emphasizing God's role in human willing.

Proponents who claim that human willing is free from God's determining should be challenged to justify their position. Many attempts to support this claim rely on scriptural verses that imply human autonomy from other created beings, rather than God. However, a closer examination reveals that these verses do not address the specific question of human freedom from God's determination.

Others may argue that certain verses mentioning things that are “not from God” provide support for their claim. However, upon closer examination, it becomes evident that these verses are actually denying God as a created cause, highlighting His transcendence rather than asserting human autonomy. Therefore, such arguments fail to substantiate the claim that human willing is independent of God's determining.

“That the Will is always determined by the strongest motive,”
Edwards.

Thoughts?

I agree.

If human willing is not in accordance with the greatest desire at a given moment, it can be argued that such willing is less than free. The concept of freedom in human willing is closely tied to the alignment between one's choices and their strongest desires.

Freedom in the context of human willing is often understood as the ability to will in accordance with one's own desires and preferences. When there is alignment between an individual's willing and their strongest desire in a given moment, it can be said that they are exercising their freedom to the fullest extent.

The greatest desire at a particular moment is the driving force behind human willing. If one's willing’s do not align with their greatest desire, it suggests a conflict within their internal motivations. In such cases, external factors, internal conflicts, or other influences may be distorting the alignment between desire and willing.

Based on the above points, we can infer that the degree of freedom in human willing corresponds to the extent to which one's willing align with their greatest desire at any given moment. When the willing is in harmony with the greatest desire, it reflects a higher degree of freedom. Conversely, if the willing is contrary to the strongest desire, it suggests a limitation on the freedom of that willing.

So now the question becomes if you are not “willing” according to your greatest desire at the moment can it really be considered a “free” willing at all?

…

 

[civic]

I suppose a good question would be, shouldn't Arminians believe that you cannot have Fiducia Belief until Total Depravity has been handled? @civic

it depends on the definition of T.D. but then I'm not sure I would agree. Take for instance an unsaved Father and Son. Doesn't the son believe/trust that his father has his best interest at heart and looks out for his well being ? Jesus even implies this is the case below.

Matthew 7:11- If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

 

[ReverendRV]

it depends on the definition of T.D. but then I'm not sure I would agree. Take for instance an unsaved Father and Son. Doesn't the son believe/trust that his father has his best interest at heart and looks out for his well being ? Jesus even implies this is the case below.

Matthew 7:11- If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

I think this is where Carbon's OP is wanting to go when he said, Faith includes three elements, knowledge, assent, and trust...

I'll see if he wants to go this route; I don't want to steal his THUNDER...

 

[civic]

I think this is where Carbon's OP is wanting to go when he said, Faith includes three elements, knowledge, assent, and trust...

I'll see if he wants to go this route; I don't want to steal his THUNDER...

You know me I love to talk about faith.