The Ability To Choose - Free Will

[Arial]

Foreknowledge means he knew before hand who would receive and believe

The father basically said to Jesus. If you go. I will give these people to you and conform them to your image

That is so atrociously backwards and upside down, I have to go take a few calming breaths. God help us all.

How can they believe first and then God gives them to the Son? God does not think or act illogically, and he never puts manki before himself or before the Son. This I can say as an absolute. You have put in place a reward system of salvation. A human is rewarded salvation by receiving Jesus and Jesus is rewarded for going to the cross by God giving him people who were good enough and smart enough to receive him.

In essence, you have the faith before the cross if you think about it long and hard enough.

 

[Eleanor]

His foreknowledge of those he elects. If God has to look into the future (our perspective) to see who will choose him, he has to look and learn from what he sees, even the whole of redemption his his plan and purpose. Does that statement bear even the slightest resemblance to God as he presents himself in the Bible?

There is more than one usage definition of "foreknowledge" in the Bible.

The word in Greek is prognosis. Here it is from Strong's:

Phonetic Spelling: (prog'-no-sis)

Definition: Foreknowledge

Meaning: foreknowledge, previous determination.

So why do you use the definition of knowing or being aware of something before its existence? On what biblical basis are you claiming it is the latter?

Which is the use of the word when it refers to God's foreknowledge.

 

[makesends]

His foreknowledge of those he elects. If God has to look into the future (our perspective) to see who will choose him, he has to look and learn from what he sees, even the whole of redemption his his plan and purpose. Does that statement bear even the slightest resemblance to God as he presents himself in the Bible?

There is more than one usage definition of "foreknowledge" in the Bible.

The word in Greek is prognosis. Here it is from Strong's:

Phonetic Spelling: (prog'-no-sis)

Definition: Foreknowledge

Meaning: foreknowledge, previous determination.

So why do you use the definition of knowing or being aware of something before its existence? On what biblical basis are you claiming it is the latter?

Exactly so.

By the necessary definition of "God" —that is, not "a god", but who God is— having been at the head of causation, as John 1 says, "All things were made by him...", (which implies that very reality was his doing), then it logically follows that for him to know something is to cause it. And if he knew it before he caused it, but caused it anyway, then it logically follows that he intentionally caused (DETERMINED) it.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Personal assertion without Biblical demonstration is without Biblical merit.

reread these words back to yourself.. then apply it to yourself

His foreknowledge of those he elects. If God has to look into the future (our perspective) to see who will choose him, he has to look and learn from what he sees, even the whole of redemption his his plan and purpose. Does that statement bear even the slightest resemblance to God as he presents himself in the Bible?

There is more than one usage definition of "foreknowledge" in the Bible.

The word in Greek is prognosis. Here it is from Strong's:

Phonetic Spelling: (prog'-no-sis)

Definition: Foreknowledge

Meaning: foreknowledge, previous determination.

So why do you use the definition of knowing or being aware of something before its existence? On what biblical basis are you claiming it is the latter?

pro - before hand, previous to. in front of
gnosis - knowledge, understanding, awareness

prognosis - to know beforehand, to have prior knowledge.

I just go off what the greek word means.

Previous determine comes from the word pre-destined (Pre - Determine or decide beforehand, or preordain . not foreknowledge.

so I would not think of using it that way.

Rom 8, for whom he foreknew (knew beforehand) he predestioned (predetermined) to be conformed to the image of his son

what did he forknow.. Look to his will. which as you said, you already agreed.

 

[makesends]

That is so atrociously backwards and upside down, I have to go take a few calming breaths. God help us all.

How can they believe first and then God gives them to the Son? God does not think or act illogically, and he never puts manki before himself or before the Son. This I can say as an absolute. You have put in place a reward system of salvation. A human is rewarded salvation by receiving Jesus and Jesus is rewarded for going to the cross by God giving him people who were good enough and smart enough to receive him.

In essence, you have the faith before the cross if you think about it long and hard enough.

And this, still in the face of Romans 8:8 which says that those in the realm of the flesh cannot please God!

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

His foreknowledge of those he elects. If God has to look into the future (our perspective) to see who will choose him, he has to look and learn from what he sees,

God is not like us,

1. 6000 years (the lifetime of humanity) is like a few blinks of an eye
2. God knows everythign in an instant, he knew david before he was born.

Why would we limit God
I

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You go from, "God created mankind in his image", to, "A baby who is born is born in the image of God." That is rather a bit of logical sloughing.

Is the baby part of mankind?

Come on!!!!

As for, "A baby who is born is born in the image of God."

Does the same Bible that says that mankind is created in the image of God, say that a baby that is born is born in the image of God? —You yourself said in another post, that we are predestined to become conformed to the image of God. If that is so, it sounds like a future, for which we were predestined. One might conclude then, that if mankind was created in the image of God, the Elect are predestined to return to that state, which might imply that one is NOT born in the image of God.

Or, they might conclude, in a somewhat less temporal consideration, that what God created is what we will become. That would not be wrong.

again, Is a baby mankind?

God created the human race in his image, male and female created he them...

All offspring retain the image of the parents (adam and eve although since the flood. Some say the new parent would be the wife of noah)

and the parents are in the image of God.

its not a stretch. its actually logical

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That is so atrociously backwards and upside down, I have to go take a few calming breaths. God help us all.\

Go take a breath,

I understand why you would think it is so atrocious.

But its logical

How can they believe first and then God gives them to the Son?

How can they be dead until the believe.

They were not saved from beginning, they were born in adam, and had to be made alive..

so logically.. it all fits..

but again, I understand why it is hard for some

God does not think or act illogically,

Your right,, we do..

and he never puts manki before himself or before the Son.

I never said he did

This I can say as an absolute. You have put in place a reward system of salvation.

You can say it until your blue in the face. Your wrong.

A human is rewarded salvation by receiving Jesus and Jesus is rewarded for going to the cross by God giving him people who were good enough and smart enough to receive him.

Salvation is a gift. not a reward.

Take a step back

In essence, you have the faith before the cross if you think about it long and hard enough.

No. I have a God who sees 1000 years from now as close as he saw 6000 years ago.

He is all knowing..

he is not limited like you or I am limited..

 

[Hazelelponi]

Is the baby part of mankind?

Come on!!!!

again, Is a baby mankind?

God created the human race in his image, male and female created he them...

All offspring retain the image of the parents (adam and eve although since the flood. Some say the new parent would be the wife of noah)

and the parents are in the image of God.

its not a stretch. its actually logical

God created mankind in His image.

This doesn't mean we look like Him it means we can share characteristics with God, such as being creative and merciful, beings who desire justice etc.

The problem, is that mankind fell, and in our unregenerate state we don't reflect His image, we don't even know how because we hate everything about Him.

This is why we have to be saved.

 

[Arial]

But its logical

Work through the logic for me.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Exactly so.

By the necessary definition of "God" —that is, not "a god", but who God is— having been at the head of causation, as John 1 says, "All things were made by him...", (which implies that very reality was his doing), then it logically follows that for him to know something is to cause it. And if he knew it before he caused it, but caused it anyway, then it logically follows that he intentionally caused (DETERMINED) it.

So he intentionally caused evil

Is that what you’re saying? I am sure it is not. But that’s what it sounds like

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

And this, still in the face of Romans 8:8 which says that those in the realm of the flesh cannot please God!

Your right

When you or I are in the flesh we can not please God. Amen

 

[Arial]

God is not like us,

1. 6000 years (the lifetime of humanity) is like a few blinks of an eye
2. God knows everythign in an instant, he knew david before he was born.

Why would we limit God

I am not limiting God. Where do you get that idea from? Flesh out my limiting of God. Don't just say it. Where is a discussion on the rest of my post? How do you think he came to know everything in an instant? Did he learn things from this knowing? For example: who would receive him? How did he know David before he was born? Did David born himself? You need to start answering questions or it shows you have no interest in the forum rules. These in particular.
2.1. All members must engage in discussions with humility, respect, and peace (Eph 4:2; Rom 12:18; Matt 7:12; 1 Cor 13:1-13). Discussions should be constructive, seeking to edify rather than tear down. Approach discussions with a willingness to listen, a readiness to learn, and a heart that seeks to edify fellow believers in unity with Christ Jesus.

3.1. Use scripture as the foundation for discussion. Support theological claims with relevant scripture passages whenever applicable. Interpret scripture carefully, considering context, historical background, and sound hermeneutical principles. Thoughtful engagement with biblical texts is encouraged over proof-texting or out-of-context citations.

How can they be dead until the believe.

They were not saved from beginning, they were born in adam, and had to be made alive..

so logically.. it all fits..

but again, I understand why it is hard for some

Here is your statement:

The father basically said to Jesus. If you go. I will give these people to you and conform them to your image

First of all "basically" is a filler word. There is no basically about any of it. Here is the "logic" of your statement. God knows everything and he learned (and no matter how you want to play with words and eternity, knowing who would receive him in the context of your meaning of "foreknew" is learning who they are, even if he sees the whole thing all at once) who would receive Jesus. And so he said to Jesus, if you go and be perfectly righteous and die on the cross, I will give those people to you, and conform them to your image. Do you still think it fits?

The way I believe the Bible is telling us that he knew the elect because he elected them, and he elected them before they were born in Adam. But they were indeed born in Adam and needed to be rescued from that condition. The only thing that would rescue them is faith in the person and work of Jesus. Now, that is a spiritual thing and pertains to spiritual things, and according to scriptures that have already been given, comes about only by the Holy Spirit. Until that happens, they remain a condemned sinner in Adam.

But not to worry. God elected them for a specific purpose---the to give to Christ that he might be all in all. A people out of the race of Adam for himself. Therefore he predestined them to come to Christ and in him to be conformed to his image. In due time, and at just the right time, and in just the right way, he sent the Holy Spirit to quicken them to life, at which time he gave them the necessary understanding and faith needed to be taken out of the kingdom of darkness and brought into the kingdom of the Son he loves. He calls them, and they hear his voice and follow him.They cannot do this themselves, Not one iota of it, so if it is done, only God can do it. He is the one who gives life and who takes life away.

He takes them out of their birth in Adam, where they are helpless and hopeless, and rebirths them in Christ. In doing this, their ears and eyes of their understanding, once blind and deaf, are opened. And since he knew them even before the foundation of the world, and he predestined them to belong to the Son and be conformed to his image, and he called them, he will also glorify them. TULIP.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

thanks, But I disagree.

God foreknew who would receive his gift of salvation, and predestined that these people would be conformed to the image of his son.

Its all over scripture.

Do you have Scripture to back up the claim that God foreknew who would receive Him?

 

[Eleanor]

reread these words back to yourself.. then apply it to yourself

Well, my demonstration that God's foreknowledge was of his own works, rather than the works of man, was demonstrated with the following Scriptures:

"Known to the Lord before all the ages (prognosis) are his works," (Ac 15:18, 2:23, Ro 8:29; 11:2, 1Pe 1:2, 20) .
He knows his works (e.g.; election) because he has decreed that he shall do them.

What do you need demonstrated here?
If you don't agree that the above Scriptures demonstrate my assertion, then it falls to you to Biblically demonstrate how they don't.

pro - before hand, previous to. in front of
gnosis - knowledge, understanding, awareness
prognosis - to know beforehand, to have prior knowledge.
I just go off what the greek word means.

It's not about what the word means, it's about to what its meaning applies, man's actions or God's actions.

Rather than arguing against, would you be better off examining the explanations in the Scriptures presented?

Previous determine comes from the word pre-destined (Pre - Determine or decide beforehand, or preordain . not foreknowledge.
so I would not think of using it that way.
Rom 8, for whom he foreknew (knew beforehand) he predestioned (predetermined) to be conformed to the image of his son
what did he forknow.. Look to his will. which as you said, you already agreed.

His will is what he has decreed in the past, which will is the object of his foreknowledge (what he knows will occur in the future).

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I am not limiting God.

Your not? From my perspective you are

Where do you get that idea from? Flesh out my limiting of God. Don't just say it. Where is a discussion on the rest of my post? How do you think he came to know everything in an instant? Did he learn things from this knowing? For example: who would receive him? How did he know David before he was born? Did David born himself? You need to start answering questions or it shows you have no interest in the forum rules. These in particular.
2.1. All members must engage in discussions with humility, respect, and peace (Eph 4:2; Rom 12:18; Matt 7:12; 1 Cor 13:1-13). Discussions should be constructive, seeking to edify rather than tear down. Approach discussions with a willingness to listen, a readiness to learn, and a heart that seeks to edify fellow believers in unity with Christ Jesus.

3.1. Use scripture as the foundation for discussion. Support theological claims with relevant scripture passages whenever applicable. Interpret scripture carefully, considering context, historical background, and sound hermeneutical principles. Thoughtful engagement with biblical texts is encouraged over proof-texting or out-of-context citations.

Here is your statement:

First of all "basically" is a filler word. There is no basically about any of it. Here is the "logic" of your statement. God knows everything and he learned (and no matter how you want to play with words and eternity, knowing who would receive him in the context of your meaning of "foreknew" is learning who they are, even if he sees the whole thing all at once) who would receive Jesus. And so he said to Jesus, if you go and be perfectly righteous and die on the cross, I will give those people to you, and conform them to your image. Do you still think it fits?

The way I believe the Bible is telling us that he knew the elect because he elected them, and he elected them before they were born in Adam. But they were indeed born in Adam and needed to be rescued from that condition. The only thing that would rescue them is faith in the person and work of Jesus. Now, that is a spiritual thing and pertains to spiritual things, and according to scriptures that have already been given, comes about only by the Holy Spirit. Until that happens, they remain a condemned sinner in Adam.

But not to worry. God elected them for a specific purpose---the to give to Christ that he might be all in all. A people out of the race of Adam for himself. Therefore he predestined them to come to Christ and in him to be conformed to his image. In due time, and at just the right time, and in just the right way, he sent the Holy Spirit to quicken them to life, at which time he gave them the necessary understanding and faith needed to be taken out of the kingdom of darkness and brought into the kingdom of the Son he loves. He calls them, and they hear his voice and follow him.They cannot do this themselves, Not one iota of it, so if it is done, only God can do it. He is the one who gives life and who takes life away.

He takes them out of their birth in Adam, where they are helpless and hopeless, and rebirths them in Christ. In doing this, their ears and eyes of their understanding, once blind and deaf, are opened. And since he knew them even before the foundation of the world, and he predestined them to belong to the Son and be conformed to his image, and he called them, he will also glorify them. TULIP.

lol.. Sometimes I just have to laugh

You said God did not see in the future, we should not see God as man or something to that affect (in other words. I was looking at God from the eyes of man, hence I was limiting God)

And I showed how God is not like us, He knows the future from the past. its not to hard for him, I even used an example. God knew David before he was concieved

so in my view. God is perfectly able to do that very thing, to say otherwise, would be looking at God from mans point of view (limiting God)

now you can show how I am mistaken. Or I can keep on thinking as I do. because I do not see anything that would cause me to counter that view.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Well, my demonstration that God's foreknowledge was of his own works, rather than the works of man, was demonstrated with the following Scriptures:

"Known to the Lord before all the ages (prognosis) are his works," (Ac 15:18, 2:23, Ro 8:29; 11:2, 1Pe 1:2, 20) .
He knows his works (e.g.; election) because he has decreed that he shall do them.

It is the work of God we believe, we can not conjur faith up by our own reasoning or power. we must be taught by God

so Gods foreknowledge is based on this..

What do you need demonstrated here?
If you don't agree that the above Scriptures demonstrate my assertion, then it falls to you to Biblically demonstrate how they don't.

It's not about what the word means, it's about to what its meaning applies, man's actions or God's actions.

My faith is not an action.

You all keep saying it is an action as if I conjure it up myself or I do something.

Its not an action. so it is not a work.

so when you claim when I trusted God it was my action. thats a false assumption

Rather than arguing against, would you be better off examining the explanations in the Scriptures presented?

His will is what he has decreed in the past, which is the object of his foreknowledge (what he knows will occur in the future).

you could examine what I said, and see what I see from my perspective. And understand faith is not my work, or an action. Faith causes actions.. But it is not an action.

But as many as have recieved him,

His will is all who see and believe.

Thats what God foresaw and foreknew. now unless you can prove otherwise. I think we have come to a standstill (the verses you used to not prove I am wrong)

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Do you have Scripture to back up the claim that God foreknew who would receive Him?

I feel like a broken record.

Once again

1. We were predestined from the foundation of the world to be conformed to the image of the creator. Based on Gods foreknowledge and his will
2. According to Jesus. His will is that all who see and believe (have saving faith) this is shown by jesus own words.

John 6: 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.



John 3: 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 1: 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

even paul said it

Eph 1: 13 – 14: 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who[ is the [guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

as for order solutis? I do not speak latin, I try to stay away from it sincer the bible was not written in it. and it is not my language I assume you mean order of salvation?

I think it is all above. and I will add the closing remarks of John, who was a testimony to the things Jesus said

John 20:31 — 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

1. we must hear the words of Jesus,, the words as he said are spirit and they are life (this is eating the food which endures forever in john 6)
2. After God helps us to understand these words by teaching us. We must Believe (saving faith not mere belief) which means we trust in him (eph 1) by receiving him (john 1: 12) in faith (John 1, 3, 4 and 6 as we are saved by Grace through faith (eph 1)
3. Once we do this. God makes us, who were dead in tresspasses and sins alive in christ. via the washing of regeneration of the HS (titus 3) where our sins are washed away, having been redeemed by the blood of the lamb, as the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us (justification)

this can be a little wordy, if you need me to explain more. let me know. if you have any questions. I would love to answer them

 

[Eleanor]

It is the work of God we believe, we can not conjur faith up by our own reasoning or power. we must be taught by Godso Gods foreknowledge is based on this..

My faith is not an action.

Good. . .because we are not talking about your faith.

You all keep saying it is an action as if I conjure it up myself or I do something.
Its not an action. so it is not a work.
so when you claim when I trusted God it was my action. thats a false assumption

You have me confused with someone else.

you could examine what I said, and see what I see from my perspective. And understand faith is not my work, or an action. Faith causes actions.. But it is not an action.
But as many as have recieved him,
His will is all who see and believe.
Thats what God foresaw and foreknew.

Except, that is not the meaning of prognosis (foreknowledge) in the NT when used of God.

Ac 15:18 -"Known to the Lord before all the ages (prognosis) are his works," (See Ac 2:23, Ro 8:29; 11:2, 1Pe 1:2, 20).

God's foreknowledge refers to/is of his works, not man's works.

now unless you can prove otherwise. I think we have come to a standstill (the verses you used to not prove I am wrong)

See the above Scripture for that proof.

 

[Arial]

So he intentionally caused evil

Is that what you’re saying? I am sure it is not. But that’s what it sounds like

The reason it sound like that to you is because you are working from a logical fallacy. That fallacy is that it has to be one way or the other. If God is the cause of everything, then he is the cause of evil. Something akin to "Sally's cat is black therefore she only likes cats that are black."

As you have previously been told the existence of evil is not caused. It is not a creation and it is not a thing. It is the absence of something and that something is "good". Evil acts are caused, and they do not originate from God in whom there is no evil, only good. Evil people cause evil acts, more accurately, do evil acts. If God were causing evil, he would have to be doing evil acts. and he would have cause it from something he does not possess within himself. He uses evil and the evil acts of evil men, to fulfill his purpose, which is always good. See the story of Joseph confronting his brothers in Egypt.

According to the rules concerning mentioning a logical fallacy, before you continue to argue from that perspective, you need to show why it is not a logical fallacy.