Yahweh 301,302 or Trinity 301,302

[TrevorL]

Greetings Red Baker, Eleanor and others,

This thread is not about two different Theological University Courses with two subjects each in the Third Year. It was prompted by two posts #301 and #302 in another sub-forum. These were extensive Lists in support of the Trinity and one participant @Red Baker more or less invited me to discuss my understanding of this subject in general, while the other participant @Eleanor specifically suggested that I should answer her Post #302.

Possibly down the track I may address both of you in one of the Trinity threads.

Please do so

Be prepared to Biblically demonstrate the error in post #302 when you do.

What I suggest is that I will quote one reference (and any relevant comment) from Post #301 by @Red Baker and one reference (and any relevant comment) from #302 by @Eleanor. I will attempt to discuss the meaning of these references. I also would like to add a few references or themes of my own, possibly with a brief explanation for each of the references. The thread is then open for Red Baker and Eleanor to respond if they want to, and also others can be involved. I would prefer that we stick with the verses quoted each time, rather than ending up with a large quantity of references at once.

The Word of God is the second person in the eternal trinity of the Godhead (I John 5:7).

I am surprised that you rely on this reference as it is considered spurious by many scholars including many Trinitarian scholars. Most modern translations exclude 1 John 5:7 and some do not even mention the fact that this has been excluded. The following comments by Barnes could be sufficient to recommend that you do not rely upon this passage:
Barnes’ Notes on the NT
"For there are three that bear record in heaven ... - There are three that "witness," or that "bear witness" - the same Greek word which, in1 John 5:8, is rendered "bear witness" - μαρτυροῦντες marturountes. There is no passage of the New Testament which has given rise to so much discussion in regard to its genuineness as this. The supposed importance of the verse in its bearing on the doctrine of the Trinity has contributed to this, and has given to the discussion a degree of consequence which has pertained to the examination of the genuineness of no other passage of the New Testament. On the one hand, the clear testimony which it seems to bear to the doctrine of the Trinity, has made that portion of the Christian church which holds the doctrine reluctant in the highest degree to abandon it; and on the other hand, the same clearness of the testimony to that doctrine, has made those who deny it not less reluctant to admit the genuineness of the passage.

It is not consistent with the design of these notes to go into a full investigation of a question of this sort. And all that can be done is to state, in a brief way, the "results" which have been reached, in an examination of the question. Those who are disposed to pursue the investigation further, can find all that is to be said in the works referred to at the bottom of the page. The portion of the passage, in 1 John 5:7-8, whose genuineness is disputed, is included in brackets in the following quotation, as it stands in the common editions of the New Testament: "For there are three that bear record (in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness on earth,) the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one." If the disputed passage, therefore, be omitted as spurious, the whole passage will read, "For there are three that bear record, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood; and these three agree in one." The reasons which seem to me to prove that the passage included in brackets is spurious, and should not be regarded as a part of the inspired writings, are briefly the following:"

I will not quote what he states to support his conclusion that this passage is spurious, but leave this for your own consideration. The rest of his article is available on Bible Hub. There are many other Commentaries that consider this question.

Jews understood that Jesus said he was God, seeking many times to stone him for blasphemy ( ... Jn 10:30-33 ...).

What you have stated here is incorrect. Jesus did not say here that "he was God". They accused him that what he had stated in John 10:30 was equivalent to be claiming to be God.
John 10:30–38 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
You stopped short by quoting up to verse 33, but Jesus answered them in verses 34-37 and thus rejected their accusation. The full meaning of Jesus' answer needs to be considered step by step, but Jesus equates "I and my Father are one" with "I said, I am the Son of God". Jesus is not claiming to be God the Son, but the Son of God.

The first reference that I would like to add is 1 Corinthians 8:6 and this clearly teaches that there is One God the Father:
1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV): But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The second reference is one of the most quoted OT references in the NT. It reveals the present status of the One God, Yahweh, and David's and our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. This vision clearly supports the fact there is One God, the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, now exalted, and he is the Son of God.
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings Trevor~I read your first line to me, and stop! I have never said the Word was the second person of the trinity~please correct that before moving forward~there are no first, second and third persons of the Godhead.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Red Baker,

I read your first line to me, and stop! I have never said the Word was the second person of the trinity~please correct that before moving forward~there are no first, second and third persons of the Godhead.

Please check as I did not rewrite what you said, but simply quoted directly from Post #301. Here is the whole paragraph with the relevant portion highlighted by me with bold and underline. If it needs adjusting, please rewrite, but I am simply questioning 1 John 5:7 which is considered a spurious verse by many scholars including Trinitarians.

The Word of God is the second person in the eternal trinity of the Godhead (I John 5:7). The Word was in the beginning with God, and the Word was God in the beginning (John 1:1). The incarnation did not change the nature of the Word; He simply joined flesh (Rev 19:13). The Word of life was from the beginning, but it was manifest through flesh (I John 1:1-3). Jesus Christ is the Word – He is the Word made flesh – but the Word is not strictly Jesus Christ.

I could have also discussed the rest of the paragraph above, but I wanted to concentrate on one verse at a time. My OP is essentially discussing four references for a start. Perhaps I have the advantage so far, as I have nominated all four references, but one of these is from your list and the second from @Eleanor list.

Too late now, but on reflection I would now prefer the thread title to be "Yahweh or Trinity 301,302".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Red Baker]

Trevor, You are correct in that one quote~but if your read all of what I posted I made it very clear the Word of John 1:1 is the first, second and third person of the Godhead~This ONE God is clearly manifest to us as three~ "only" according to the work of redemption for God's elect.

God cannot die, so he conceived a Son who was a man, to be the surety of God's elect. Jesus was the Son of God, by being begotten by him~which means he is equal to God, the Pharisees understood what being the Son of God meant.~John 10. Do you? No pun intended Trevor.

I'll go back and read your post now, just got back

I do not like to repeat exactly what I believe in every post, but all of them collectively will show what I believe and teach.

 

[Eleanor]

Greetings Eleanor,

This thread is not about two different Theological University Courses with two subjects each in the Third Year. It was prompted by two posts #301 and #302 in another sub-forum. These were extensive Lists in support of the Trinity and one participant @Red Baker more or less invited me to discuss my understanding of this subject in general, while the other participant @Eleanor specifically suggested that I should answer her Post #302.

What you have stated here is incorrect. Jesus did not say here that "he was God".

Nor did I say that he did.
Following is the post to which you are referring, which presents the voluminous NT testimony to the divinity of Jesus, none of it spoken by himself.

The NT witnesses throughout that Jesus is God.

I. The NT identifies Jesus as the YHWH of the OT in

Mt 3:3, Lk 1:67-68, 76 (Isa 40:3) - Jesus is the YHWH of whom the voice calling in the wilderness (John the Baptist) prepared the way.
Ro 10:9, 13 (Joel 2:32) - Paul teaches Jesus is the YHWH of Joel's prophecy that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved."
Heb 1:6 (Dt 32:43) - Heb quotes Moses' song referring to YHWH and says it applies to Jesus.
Rev 1:12-18 (Isa 44:6, 48:12) - the man in the vision is Jesus (1:18, 2:8) who identifies himself as the First and the Last which is YHWH identification of himself.
Rev 21:6, 22:12-13 (Rev 1:8) - the man in the vision (Jesus) identifies himself as the Alpha and Omega of Rev 1:8, which is YHWH.
Rev 21:5-7 (Rev 20:11-13) -Jesus, the one on the throne (Rev 20:11-13 with Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39), is God (Rev 21:7).
The Elohim and YHWH who created all things (Ge 1:1, Is 44:24, Jer 10:16) is Jesus (Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10).

Jesus is
Immanuel (Isa 7:14, Mt 1:23) "God with us;"
Mighty God, Everlasting Father" (Isa 9:6);
God who came to save (Isa 35:4-6, 43:11),
YHWH Adonai of Eze 34:11-16 who is the shepherd of the sheep (Jn 10:11-15).

II. Jews understood that Jesus said he was God, seeking many times to stone him for blasphemy (Mk 2:3-7, Jn 6:41-42, 10:30-33, 5:18, 8:58-59, 19:7--Lev 24:16).

III. Paul said we are waiting for the glorious appearing of 'the great God and Savior of us Jesus Christ." (Tit 2:13)

IV. The NT testifies that Jesus is not an angel (Heb 1:4-14), that his "name" is Son--a name to which no angel can lay claim (Heb 1:4), that he is begotten of God (giving him the same nature as God, divine) and that he is the only begotten of God, he has no brothers like himself, divine.

V. The NT presents worship of Jesus together with his Father:
To the gods of paganism (Ac 17:22-27), Paul opposes one God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ (1 Co 8:5-6) to be worshiped, and shows
worship of Jesus (Php 2:10),
prayer to Jesus (Ac 7:59, 9:14, 2 Co 12:8, 1 Co 1:2, 16:22, Rev 22:20)
praise to Jesus (Ro 9:5, 2 Tim 4:8, 2 Pe 3:18, Rev 1:5-6, 5:10, 7:13)
desired divine blessing of Jesus (1 Th 3:11-13, 2 Th 3:5, 16)
all of which are reserved to God alone (Ex 20:3-5, Mt 4:9-10, Ac 10:25-26, Rev 19:10, 22:8-9).

VI. The NT presents Jesus as having the attributes of God:
eternal existence - Jn 1:1, 2, 1 Jn 1:2, Rev 1:8, 22:13,
omnipresence - Mt 18:20, 28:20, Ac 18:10.
omniscience - Mt 9:4, Jn 2:24-25, 6:64, 21:17b, 16:30, Col 2:3,
omnipotence - Mt 28:18, Jn 3:35, 6:39b, 40b, 54b, 11:25, 13:3, Php 3:21, Col 1:17, 19, 2:9, Heb 1:3, 10-12, Rev 1:8, 21:5 (Da 7:14),
immutability - Heb 1:10-12, 13:8,
providence - Lk 10:22, Jn 3:35, 17:2, Eph 1:22, Col 1:17, Heb 1:3,
forgiveness of sin - Mk 2:7-11, Ac 5:31, Col 3:13,
judges sin - Mt 25:31-32, Jn 5:22, 27, Ac 10:42, 17:31, Ro 2:16, 14:10, 2 Co 5:10, 2 Tim 4:1,
gives eternal life - Jn 5:21, 6:54, 57, 11:25-26 1 Co 15:45,
source of eternal life - Jn 1:4, 5:26, 14:6, Ac 3:15, 1 Jn 1:1-2, 5:11-12, 20, Rev 1:18.

VII. Confession that "Jesus is Lord" (Ac 2:36) means to acknowledge that Jesus is a person to be invoked, trusted, known, praised and adored as God the Father is (Jn 5:23); i.e., as divine.

The NT witnesses throughout that Jesus is God.

They accused him that what he had stated in John 10:30 was equivalent to be claiming to be God.
John 10:30–38 (KJV): 30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
You stopped short by quoting up to verse 33, but Jesus answered them in verses 34-37 and thus rejected their accusation. The full meaning of Jesus' answer needs to be considered step by step, but Jesus equates "I and my Father are one" with "I said, I am the Son of God". Jesus is not claiming to be God the Son, but the Son of God.

The first reference that I would like to add is 1 Corinthians 8:6 and this clearly teaches that there is One God the Father:
1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV): But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Agreed, there is one Being, God, in three separate divine persons, one Father, one Son and one Holy Spirit.
The NT testimony presented above is voluminous.

The second reference is one of the most quoted OT references in the NT. It reveals the present status of the One God, Yahweh, and David's and our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God. This vision clearly supports the fact there is One God, the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, now exalted, and he is the Son of God.

Agreed there is one God.
Agreed, Jesus is human.

Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Confession that "Jesus is Lord" means to acknowledge that Jesus is a person to be invoked, trusted, known, praised and adored as God the Father is (Jn 5:23); i.e., as divine.

And you still have not addressed the voluminous NT testimony to his divinity, presented above.

 

[Eleanor]

What you have stated here is incorrect. Jesus did not say here that "he was God". They accused him that what he had stated in John 10:30 was equivalent to be claiming to be God.

Nor did I say that he did.

Jesus said to the apostles: "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me." (Lk 10:16)

Why do you reject the following testimony of the apostles? Did Jesus not say in the above that apostolic teaching is authoritative to the church?

Mt 3:3 and Lk 1:67-68, 76 regarding Isa 40:3 that Jesus is the YHWH of whom the voice calling in the wilderness (John the Baptist) prepared the way.

Ro 10:9, 13 regarding Joel 2:32 where Paul teaches Jesus is the YHWH of Joel's prophecy that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved."

Heb 1:6 regarding Dt 32:43 where Heb quotes Moses' song referring to YHWH and says it applies to Jesus.

Rev 1:12-18 regarding Isa 44:6, 48:12 where John says the man in the vision is Jesus (1:18, 2:8) who identifies himself as the First and the Last which is YHWH identification of himself.

Rev 21:6, 22:12-13 regarding Rev 1:8 where John says the man in the vision (Jesus) identifies himself as the Alpha and Omega of Rev 1:8, which is YHWH.

Rev 21:5-7 regarding Rev 20:11-13 where John says Jesus, the one on the throne (Rev 20:11-13 with Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39), is God (Rev 21:7).

Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10 where John and Paul say the YHWH who created all things (Ge 1:1, Is 44:24, Jer 10:16) is Jesus.

To hear the apostles is to hear Jesus, and to reject the above teaching of the apostles is to reject the teaching of Jesus (Lk 10:16).

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings again Red Baker,

but I am simply questioning 1 John 5:7 which is considered a spurious verse by many scholars including Trinitarians.

I could have also discussed the rest of the paragraph above, but I wanted to concentrate on one verse at a time.
Trevor

1st John 5:7~"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
For there are three that bear record in heaven."

Greetings Trevor~The first verse you should check in any Bible in any language is this acid test (Ist John 5:7).

The claim is that there is no old Greek manuscript evidence for the verse like others. Some claim Erasmus put it in his third New Testament translation without authority. Others with a little more integrity claim that he put it in his translation only from the Latin.

The words, “in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth” are called the Johannine Comma, rejected as an interpolated phrase without enough authority to be scripture.

The examples of how different Bible versions handle the Comma remind us of Babel. The ASV (1901) reads, “And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.” The NIV (1978) reads, “For there are three that testify:” Bible translations based on the Textus Much more we could say, but forbear.

The reasons why anyone might not want the text help us appreciate why it is scripture. It is the clearest statement and definition of God as a Trinity anywhere in the Bible.

It is the Word in heaven that bears record of the Son, not Son bearing it of the Son. Since the Word is the eternal God both in John’s Gospel and here, it exalts Jesus.

John made it clear in this epistle that attacks against the full deity of Jesus existed.

By the Word being the entry in the Trinity here, He is eternal God before incarnation. We absolutely trust Ist John 5:7 and consider it as much inspired scripture as any other. If one cannot trust this one scripture what others should we not trust? How foolish and wicked to even think 1st John 5:7 is not part of the holy scriptures.

We appreciate and praise God for the translators not using italics (see Ist John 2:23). Begotten god, eternal sonship advocates deny this testimony in annual Bible sequels. For defense of I John 5:7 as authoritative scripture ... there are so many out on the internet, taht we may later present.

Three divine Persons in one Godhead in heaven bear record Jesus is the Son of God. The verse here by a coordinating conjunction for includes the Trinity with the Spirit. The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Jehovah God, and all members of the Godhead agree. But beyond agreement, they are one in nature, for there is only one God Jehovah. The entire Godhead is committed to the confirmation of Jesus as the Son of God. Jesus’ baptismal formula and Paul’s blessing are a trinity (Matt 28:19; II Cor 13:14).

The Father.
We were introduced in this epistle to the Father right at the beginning (I John 1:2-3).
We are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and a Trinitarian formula (Matt 28:18-20).
God’s relationship to His Son is glorious and should be prized (Heb 1:1-5; Phil 1:9-11).
God is Father in creation of Adam (Luke 3:38) and the angels (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7).
God is Father of Jesus Christ (Luke 1:35; Romans 1:3) and us (Rom 8:15; Gal 4:4-6).
God as Father in the O.T. is rare, usually of Israel or prophetic of Christ, but not often.
God as Father of Jesus teaches incarnation at least and Father of us by His adoption.

The Word.
The Word is God and was with God in the beginning and is Creator of all (John 1:1-3).
The Word is eternal God also here in this epistle, for it is how John opened (Ist John 1:1-3).

And the Holy Ghost.
The three are one in nature and testimony, for the ultimate three witnesses (Matt 18:16).
Places like II Corinthians 13:14; I Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 4:4-6; Matthew 28:19.

And these three are one.
There is no difference in nature between the three Persons in the one solitary Godhead.
The nature of God is the category of attributes that makes Him distinctly God (Gal 4:8).
When three are said to be one, as they are here, they are one in essence and nature.
All three are credited with creation (Job 33:4; John 1:1; Heb 1:3; Revelation 4:11).
All three are credited with regeneration (I Peter 3:3; 1:23; John 5:25; Titus 3:5).
All three are credited with resurrection (Galatians 1:1; Romans 1:4; John 10:18).
God is Holy, all three Persons are holy (Is 6:3); God is spirit, all three Persons are spirit (Jn 4:24); but one is called the Holy Spirit; the name is relational, not of nature.

The Bible reveals the Trinity to us in words descriptive of redemption … Father (of Jesus and us) … Word (declarer and revealer of God and truth) … the Holy Spirit (the internal, invisible, hidden operator of holiness and power).

There is only one God. Period. There can only be one totally Supreme Being as God.
The scriptures declare it very clearly (Deut 6:4; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; I Cor 12:4-6).
God is eternal in both directions without end (Deut 33:27; Psalm 90:2; Isaiah 57:15).
Our God is self-existent, self-subsistent, infinitely, eternally independent (Ex 3:14).
Before this revelation, I AM THAT I AM, He was Almighty God (Exodus 6:3).
Our God’s special name is Jehovah, and He infinitely transcends all other gods.
His special name of Jehovah is His memorial to all generations (Exodus 3:15).
Love every occurrence of Jehovah or its derivatives (Psalm 68:4; Rev 19:1,3,4,6).
.
Yet, the Bible also indicates and declares a plurality in the Godhead of Jehovah.
They are the Highest, the Word, and the Spirit (Luke 1:32; John 1:1; Is 48:16).
They are also Father, Son, Holy Ghost (Matt 3:16-17; 28:19-20; II Cor 13:14).
They are also Spirit, Lord, and God operating in the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).
Or they can be the Ancient of Days and the Son of Man of Daniel (Daniel 7:13).
All three participated in different ways at our Lord’s baptism (Matthew 3:16-17).

The Bible trinity is far superior to the speculative trinities of any other origin.
The Nicene Creed (RCC) and its adoring followers hold to a heretical trinity.
The Bible has all three Persons without any distinction at all in their nature.
The Bible knows nothing of “God of God” and similar human speculations.
The Bible does not know a begotten god, turning the trinity into paganism.
They proudly say we must use Origen’s, not God’s, words to be orthodox.
They are named for their given roles in creation or especially in our redemption. They did not need names for each other; they were part of the same nature. Their names are for us; their names do not alter their absolute equality of nature.

God is not Father of the Word; the Word does not declare Him to the Spirit.

Names are descriptive, Almighty God, Ancient of Days, King of kings, etc.
What is God’s name? It is Jehovah, I AM THAT I AM, for all three Persons.
God is Father in creation of Adam (Lu 3:38) and angels (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7).
God is Father of Jesus Christ (Lu 1:35; Ro 1:2) and us (Ro 8:15; Gal 4:4-6).
God as Father in the O.T. is rare, usually of Israel or prophetic of Christ.
God as Father of Jesus teaches incarnation at least and Father of us adoption!

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Red Baker and Eleanor,

Perhaps before answering both of you, the following is my definition:
I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, now exalted and sitting at the right hand of God, in God the Father's Throne, and Jesus is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

God cannot die, so he conceived a Son who was a man, to be the surety of God's elect. Jesus was the Son of God, by being begotten by him~which means he is equal to God, the Pharisees understood what being the Son of God meant.~John 10. Do you? No pun intended Trevor.

I understand "the Son of God" as the fact that God was his father in the conception/birth process and also Jesus is the Son of God because he perfectly reflected the character of God, he was "full of grace and truth" John 1:14.

The reasons why anyone might not want the text help us appreciate why it is scripture. It is the clearest statement and definition of God as a Trinity anywhere in the Bible.

I appreciate your explanation and statement that you endorse 1 John 5:7. For my part I consider it spurious and I am happy to close the consideration of 1 John 5:7. Over 10 years ago I had two discussions on a forum on the Trinity and the Moderator quoted 1 John 5:7 and I posted the article by Barnes. A few Trinitarians also objected to using 1 John 5:7 as they also considered it spurious. The thread ran into at least 19 pages, but at the end the Moderator quoted 1 John 5:7 again and closed the thread. A few months later a member challenged me and I stated that he should simply look at that closed thread, but he insisted in going through most of the same material with me. The Moderator towards the end of the thread quoted again 1 John 5:7 and then permanently banned me. I had to go to the Public Library to check what had happened as I received no notification, but could not access their site any more.

And you still have not addressed the voluminous NT testimony to his divinity, presented above.

Such a long list and statements (actually now two lists) appears intimidating at first, but my aim is to consider a few verses at a time, and when we more or less have covered these verses whether we agree or not then we could look at some more from your lists and the @Red Baker list. For example I do not see the need to continue discussing 1 John 5:7. I appreciate that you have briefly answered some aspects of the verses I nominated.

Nor did I say that he did.
Following is the post to which you are referring, which presents the voluminous NT testimony to the divinity of Jesus, none of it spoken by himself.

Jews understood that Jesus said he was God, seeking many times to stone him for blasphemy (Jn 10:30-33)

Pardon my ignorance, but my impression from the above is that you agree with their estimation, or accusation. You seem to imply that from what Jesus stated they were meant to accept that Jesus was God. I believe that Jesus in John 10:34-37 not only clearly rejects their assessment but also clearly answers their assessment by means of two or three arguments which you have not mentioned as yet. You ignore the answer that Jesus gave, especially concerning the gods or Elohim of Psalm 82:6.

Agreed, there is one Being, God, in three separate divine persons, one Father, one Son and one Holy Spirit.
The NT testimony presented above is voluminous.

1 Corinthians 8:6 defines the One God as the Father, not the Trinity which defines the One God, as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Confession that "Jesus is Lord" means to acknowledge that Jesus is a person to be invoked, trusted, known, praised and adored as God the Father is (Jn 5:23); i.e., as divine.

There is a clear distinction in Psalm 110:1 between LORD (Yahweh) and David's Lord. Two different words, two different meanings. Yahweh is the Name of God the Father, Lord is a title, Lord, Ruler, Master. Psalm 110:1 depicts the scene after the resurrection where Jesus is invited to sit at God's right hand. There is not a hint that he is resuming the seat he occupied in the prior to his resurrection. Jesus quotes and alludes to Psalm 110:1 in the following, and this clearly shows that this only happened after the resurrection:
Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Eleanor]

Greetings again Red Baker and Eleanor,

Perhaps before answering both of you, the following is my definition:
I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, now exalted and sitting at the right hand of God, in God the Father's Throne, and Jesus is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.
Such a long list and statements (actually now two lists) appears intimidating at first, but my aim is to consider a few verses at a time, and when we more or less have covered these verses whether we agree or not then we could look at some more from your lists.

Pardon my ignorance, but my impression from the above is that you agree with their estimation, or accusation.

INDEED! As did the apostles John, Matthew and Paul:

Mt 3:3 and Lk 1:67-68, 76 regarding Isa 40:3 where Matthew and Luke say that Jesus is the YHWH of whom the voice calling in the wilderness (John the Baptist) prepared the way.

Ro 10:9, 13 regarding Joel 2:32 where Paul teaches Jesus is the YHWH of Joel's prophecy that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved."

Heb 1:6 regarding Dt 32:43 where Paul quotes Moses' song referring to YHWH and says it applies to Jesus.

Rev 1:12-18 regarding Isa 44:6, 48:12 where John says the man in the vision is Jesus (1:18, 2:8) who identifies himself as the First and the Last which is YHWH identification of himself.

Rev 21:6, 22:12-13 regarding Rev 1:8 where John says the man in the vision (Jesus) identifies himself as the Alpha and Omega of Rev 1:8, which is YHWH.

Rev 21:5-7 regarding Rev 20:11-13 where John says Jesus, the one on the throne (Rev 20:11-13 with Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39), is God (Rev 21:7).

Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10 where John and Paul say the YHWH who created all things (Ge 1:1, Is 44:24, Jer 10:16) is Jesus.

Jesus said that whoever rejects the words of his apostles are rejecting Jesus' words (Lk 10:16).
Why do you reject Jesus' words above?

You seem to imply that from what Jesus stated they were meant to accept that Jesus was God.

Unless I stated it, I am not "implying" it. Deal with what I actually state, as in the above and below.

I believe that Jesus in John 10:34-37 not only clearly rejects their assessment but also clearly answers their assessment by means of two or three arguments which you have not mentioned as yet. You ignore the answer that Jesus gave, especially concerning the gods or Elohim of Psalm 82:6.

There is no denial by Jesus of his divinity in Jn 10:34-37, there is only his refutation of their argument that it is blasphemy to call a man "god" by showing them that men are, in fact, called "god" in Scripture.

1 Corinthians 8:6 defines the One God as the Father, not the Trinity which defines the One God, as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

There is a clear distinction in Psalm 110:1 between LORD (Yahweh) and David's Lord. Two different words, two different meanings. Yahweh is the Name of God the Father, Lord is a title, Lord, Ruler, Master. Psalm 110:1 depicts the scene after the resurrection where Jesus is invited to sit at God's right hand. There is not a hint that he is resuming the seat he occupied in the prior to his resurrection. Jesus quotes and alludes to Psalm 110:1 in the following, and this clearly shows that this only happened after the resurrection:
Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

This does not address my Biblical demonstration of three divine agents presented in NT teaching from the beginning, where

1) We have three separate persons (divine agents), Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
presented in the work of salvation:

a)--at its beginning (Luke 1:35),
-----at the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry (Matthew 3:16-17) and
-----in the work of atonement (Hebrews 9:14),

b) the Holy Spirit completing the work (salvation) of the Father through the Son
(Acts 2:38-39; Romans 8:26; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:13-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2),

c) the only way to enter the kingdom of the Father (salvation) is through faith in the Son and regeneration by the Holy Spirit (John 3:1-15).

2) And Jesus shows the personhoods of three distinct and separate divine agents:

The Son is sent by the Father, in the Father's name (John 5:23, 36, 43).
The Spirit is sent by the Father in the Son's name (John 14:26).
The Spirit is subject to the Son as well as to the Father, for the Spirit is sent by the Son as well as the Father (John 15:26, 16:7, 14:26).

One doesn't send oneself, one sends another who is separate from oneself.

The Trinity--one God in three separate divine persons--is presented in NT teaching from the beginning and

you have in no way Biblically refuted the NT testimony above regarding the Trinity.

 

[Binyawmene]

1) We have three separate persons (divine agents), Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
presented in the work of salvation:

a)--at its beginning (Luke 1:35),
-----at the inauguration of Jesus' public ministry (Matthew 3:16-17) and
-----in the work of atonement (Hebrews 9:14),

b) the Holy Spirit completing the work (salvation) of the Father through the Son
(Acts 2:38-39; Romans 8:26; 1 Corinthians 12:4-6; Ephesians 1:3-14, Ephesians 2:13-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:2),

c) the only way to enter the kingdom of the Father (salvation) is through faith in the Son and regeneration by the Holy Spirit (John 3:1-15).

2) And Jesus shows the personhoods of three distinct and separate divine agents:

The Son is sent by the Father, in the Father's name (John 5:23, 36, 43).
The Spirit is sent by the Father in the Son's name (John 14:26).
The Spirit is subject to the Son as well as to the Father, for the Spirit is sent by the Son as well as the Father (John 15:26, 16:7, 14:26).

One doesn't send oneself, one sends another who is separate from oneself.

The Trinity--one God in three separate divine persons--is presented in NT teaching from the beginning and

you have in no way Biblically refuted the NT testimony above regarding the Trinity.

The Trinity doctrinal framework teaches "distinct persons" and not "separate persons."

 

[Eleanor]

rejecting

The Trinity doctrinal framework teaches "distinct persons" and not "separate persons."

Distinct is separate.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Eleanor,

my impression from the above is that you agree with their estimation, or accusation.

INDEED!

Jesus did not accept their estimation, and he would not accept your agreement with their estimation. Jesus was not claiming to be God when he stated the following as he uses the same language concerning the Apostles and faithful:
John 10:30 (KJV): I and my Father are one.

John 17:11,17–21 (KJV): 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

There is no denial by Jesus of his divinity in Jn 10:34-37, there is only his refutation of their argument that it is blasphemy to call a man "god" by showing them that men are, in fact, called "god" in Scripture.

The Judges were called "Elohim" because of their responsibility to Judge faithfully, not because they were Divine creatures. They were humans who were called upon to represent God and God's Judgements.. They had received the Word of God in the Law and they were not to be biased against the poor. The Psalmist in Psalm 82 condemned some of his contemporary Judges because they failed in this responsibility.

Jesus also was not God, but represented God. He is also a human, the Son of God revealing the character of God.
John 10:36 (KJV): Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

This does not address my Biblical demonstration of three divine agents presented in NT teaching from the beginning

You seem to like to avoid the passage that is the subject under consideration and take comfort in your lists and other expositions. My aim in this thread is to discuss a few passages at a time, and when complete, whether we agree or not, then move on to other passages. The four passages that I have chosen are 1 John 5:7, John 10:30-37, 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Psalm 110:1.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Red Baker]

Distinct is separate.

As far as their work in the redemption of God's chosen people.

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings again Eleanor,


Jesus did not accept their estimation, and he would not accept your agreement with their estimation. Jesus was not claiming to be God when he stated the following as he uses the same language concerning the Apostles and faithful:
John 10:30 (KJV): I and my Father are one.

John 17:11,17–21 (KJV): 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

The Judges were called "Elohim" because of their responsibility to Judge faithfully, not because they were Divine creatures. They were humans who were called upon to represent God and God's Judgements.. They had received the Word of God in the Law and they were not to be biased against the poor. The Psalmist in Psalm 82 condemned some of his contemporary Judges because they failed in this responsibility.

Jesus also was not God, but represented God. He is also a human, the Son of God revealing the character of God.
John 10:36 (KJV): Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

You seem to like to avoid the passage that is the subject under consideration and take comfort in your lists and other expositions. My aim in this thread is to discuss a few passages at a time, and when complete, whether we agree or not, then move on to other passages. The four passages that I have chosen are 1 John 5:7, John 10:30-37, 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Psalm 110:1.

Kind regards
Trevor

I will let Eleanor first answer her post, then I have a few things I would like to say concerning your post.

 

[Binyawmene]

Distinct is separate.

Depends upon the dictionary semantical definitions and nuances. But when it comes to the Trinity doctrine the persons are in distinction and denounces any form of separation for both ontological and economical. Separation is like tritheism or polytheism. Example, if you have one whole pan of pizza, then you cut it into 8 slices, and you've separate 3 slices from the whole. The whole is into parts. In the same manner, the one triune Being would be separated and divided into parts too by claiming separation.

 

[Eleanor]

Greetings again Eleanor,

Jesus did not accept their estimation, and he would not accept your agreement with their estimation.

Nor, having said that whoever rejects the words of his apostles are rejecting his words (Lk 10:16), would he accept your disagreement with his apostles in the following.
Why do you reject Jesus' words of his apostles, following?

Mt 3:3 and Lk 1:67-68, 76 regarding Isa 40:3 where Matthew and Luke say that Jesus is the YHWH of whom the voice calling in the wilderness (John the Baptist) prepared the way.

Ro 10:9, 13 regarding Joel 2:32 where Paul teaches Jesus is the YHWH of Joel's prophecy that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved."

Heb 1:6 regarding Dt 32:43 where Paul quotes Moses' song referring to YHWH and says it applies to Jesus.

Rev 1:12-18 regarding Isa 44:6, 48:12 where John reports the man in the vision is Jesus (1:18, 2:8) who identifies himself as the First and the Last which is YHWH identification of himself.

Rev 21:6, 22:12-13 regarding Rev 1:8 where John reports the man in the vision (Jesus) identifies himself as the Alpha and Omega of Rev 1:8, which is YHWH.

Rev 21:5-7 regarding Rev 20:11-13 where John reports Jesus, the one on the throne (Rev 20:11-13 with Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39), is God (Rev 21:7).

Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10 where John and Paul say the YHWH who created all things (Ge 1:1, Is 44:24, Jer 10:16) is Jesus.

Jesus was not claiming to be God.

He does according to John in:

Rev 1:12-18 regarding Isa 44:6, 48:12 where John says the man in the vision is Jesus (1:18, 2:8) who identifies himself as the First and the Last which is YHWH identification of himself.

Rev 21:6, 22:12-13 regarding Rev 1:8 where John says the man in the vision (Jesus) identifies himself as the Alpha and Omega of Rev 1:8, which is YHWH.

Rev 21:5-7 regarding Rev 20:11-13 where John says Jesus, the one on the throne (Rev 20:11-13 with Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39), is God (Rev 21:7).

My aim in this thread is to discuss a few passages at a time,

In your turn, after you have demonstrated the Biblical error in the NT teaching which I have already presented.

 

[Eleanor]

Depends upon the dictionary semantical definitions and nuances. But when it comes to the Trinity doctrine the persons are in distinction and denounces any form of separation for both ontological and economical. Separation is like tritheism or polytheism. Example, if you have one whole pan of pizza, then you cut it into 8 slices, and you've separate 3 slices from the whole. The whole is into parts. In the same manner, the one triune Being would be separated and divided into parts too by claiming separation.

And the Father sending the Son, etc.?

 

[Binyawmene]

And the Father sending the Son, etc.?

What about it?
The Trinity framework for Inseparability: “just as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are inseparable, so they also work inseparably”. The Son has inseparability to the Father and the Holy Spirit is according to the Divine Nature. And the three persons are undivided and inseparable in the economical relations because they are undivided inseparable in the Divine Nature.

John 8:29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.​

 

[Eleanor]

What about it?
The Trinity framework for Inseparability: “just as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are inseparable, so they also work inseparably”. The Son has inseparability to the Father and the Holy Spirit is according to the Divine Nature. And the three persons are undivided and inseparable in the economical relations because they are undivided inseparable in the Divine Nature.

John 8:29 The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him.​

Okay, "separate" meaning "parts," I will use "distinct" from now now on.

Thanks.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Eleanor,

In your turn, after you have demonstrated the Biblical error in the NT teaching which I have already presented.

It appears to me that you are not really interested in discussing any passage, but want to continually repeat your list, like a supporter at a political rally waving a banner. I can understand how you have 2482 messages in such a short time. Thank you for your short time on this thread, via repetitious copy and paste.

I am open to discussing with others including @Red Baker if any one is interested in having a proper look at some of the passages mentioned and others passages, but preferably a few references at a time. Any passage nominated I reserve the right to state that I do not have a simple answer to one of them.

Kind regards
Trevor