Which person in the Trinity is the Judge?

[Ladodgers6]

That's a very thought-out explanation for Total Depravity.

I have previously said: "I do believe the result of a person's regeneration is acknowledging the Trinity. But the Trinity is not the mean for regeneration." Here is some Scriptures that teaches the results of one who is born again (or regeneration):

1. believes in Jesus Christ (1 John 5:1)​

2. showing righteousness (1 John 2:29)​

3. showing love (1 John 4:7)​

4. not repeating sins (1 John 3:9, 5:18)​

5. overcoming the world through faith (1 John 5:4)​

I agree, a sinner doesn't need to know how the Trinity works to be saved. I totally agree with this statement. Can you clarify what you mean, the Trinity is not the mean for regeneration?​

If you notice in number 1 "believing that Jesus is the Christ" -- that believing will naturally flow into other sequences, for instance: Jesus is the Christ, which the Holy Spirit will lead a person to, Jesus is the LORD. After all, you cannot confess "Jesus is LORD" except by the Holy Spirit according to Scripture --

1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.​

That's obviously the result of regeneration through the Holy Spirit. I remember that I had a discussion once with a Unitarian (BU), many-many years ago in CARM. He acknowledged that the Bible does teaches that Jesus is LORD. But he would not confess it. Because he was afraid that if he believes Jesus is LORD, then he would start believing in the Trinity too. Even Reformed Christians believe that the Father is LORD, the Son is LORD, and the Holy Spirit is LORD. There are not three lords, but there is only one LORD. I personally believe the best Scriptural proof for the Deity of Christ is that fact that Jesus Christ is LORD:

"One Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Corinthians 8:6, "one Lord" Ephesians 4:5, "same Lord" 1 Corinthians 12:5, "Christ is all, and is in all" Colossians 3:11, "and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord" Jude 1:4, "true Sovereign and Lord" Revelations 6:10).​

Jesus is LORD

a). Matthew 3:3, Isaiah 40:3-4, Luke 1:68-69, 76​

b). Matthew 22:44, Psalms 110:1​

c). Hebrews 1:10-12, Psalms 102:24-27​

d). Revelations 2:18, 23, Jer 17:10​

e). John 12:37-41, Isaiah 6:10​

f). 1 Peter 2:7-8, Isaiah 8:13-14​

g). 1 Corinthians 10:9, Numbers 21:6-7​

h). Philippians 2:10-11, Romans 14:11, Isaiah 45:22-23​

i). Romans 10:9-13, Joel 2:32​

j). Jude 1:5, Deuteronomy 5:6, Hosea 13:4​

Amen! One thing I find vexatious is how people cannot understand the situation between Jews reciprocation with Jesus who tried to stone him for blasphemy when saying that he is equal with God; called himself the Son of God; or that he could forgive sins. All of these are by God Alone. Which the Jews tried to kill Jesus on multiple occasions. They need exactly what Jesus was saying, but failed to understand scripture that testified about him. Even telling them, If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me. But still they crucified him.

But what's even more delusional for denying Christ's divinity, there is divine worship offered to him.
​

Since only God is to be worshipped (Ex. 20:3), it follows that for Jesus to accept worship would be blasphemy and prove that he wasn't even a prophet or good person if he was not God. For the Scripture to anywhere command worship toward Jesus---if he was not God---would prove that they are not God's own words.

that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him (Jn. 5:23);

Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him (Jn. 12:41);

Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” (Jn. 20:28)

And when they saw him they worshiped him (Mat. 28:17);

so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Phi. 2:10-11);

And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him” (Heb. 1:6);

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!” And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped (Rev. 5:12-14).

Case closed.

 

[grace2]

Ah, so you do not believe Jesus is God incarnate? Who do you say he is?

No, He is not God incarnate.

What evidence do you have for this?

 

[Eleanor]

As a Reform Christian (not orthodox christian) you need to know how to interpret Bible verses.
Just like a scientist (in that particular field of study) needs to know how to interpret gravity.

I'm not a scientist of the word of God.
I understand in all in the context of it all.
And like gravity, I understand it well enough to effectively believe and apply it to my life and worship.

The Bible identifies the Word as Jesus Christ in the incarnation.

1 John 1:1-2 "Word of Life" and 1 John 4:2 "Jesus Christ".

But the context in John 1:1c the Word is in reference to the Divine Nature and not the incarnation.
John 1:14a is in reference to the human nature and the incarnation.
The Word became Jesus Christ when the fulness of time has come.
The selfsame person, the Word, but John 1:1c has different contextual meaning from John 1:14a.

The contextual meaning of Jn 1:1-14 intended by the penman is that Jesus of Nazareth is Greek philosophy's First Cause, great Intelligence and Reason behind the universe, which to the Jew means YHWH.

Can you interpret that verse?

Bottom line: Jesus is the deity, YHWH, of the OT and is what was called the logos in Greek philosophy, which logos is actually deity, supreme, and the YHWH of the OT.

That is its relevance to the gospel.

Sure.
John used the philosophical term Logos to demonstrate a point against the early stages of proto-gnosticism that is historically in context and evident. Since John is appealing to Gnostics, then it would be understood the Logos was not a "thought," "plan," "name." or "something spoken" etc. They would understand the Logos is a preexisting Demiurge who helped created the universe. That is the historical context of John 1:1-3, 14, and of course, denying "God in the flesh" issue.

How would the 1st. century audience understood John 1:1?

Hopefully, the same way anything is to be understood. . .in context of the whole writing.

The Greeks would have understood it to mean the logos of Greek philosophy was deity.
The Jews would have understood it to mean that the Greek logos was YHWH.

It would be common knowledge during the 1st. century cultural period, which they would have understood that Philo has falsely taught a Pre-existing Logos to mean "an intermediary divine being" in a state of cosmic flux or a demiurge (fashioner) who takes an already pre-existing eternal stuff and fashion it into our world. Then this demigurge would hold all things together by preserving creation from being pulled apart and separated. And this demiurge was an emanation ("to flow from" or "to pour forth or out of") the underlying principle or reality. And that reality was God who emanated the demiurge and through this demiurge were series of emanations of lesser beings and creation of the universe itself. That develop into worshipping of angels or these lesser beings. If you worshipped them, they will give you enlightenment or knowledge of the Logos (or demiurge) who is the highest of these intermediary beings.

 

[Runningman]

You are not talking about experience. You are talking about an emotion, a gut feeling. I have that in spades. That is a discussion that could go one for hours.

Then let's discuss it for hours. For me, Christianity is a real religion. I had already researched and explored other religions before becoming a Christian and I wouldn't be here unless it was like how the Bible was going to say it is.

Why would I bother being a Christian or witnessing about something that I haven't ever experienced? Is that what you're doing? If you're doing that then you're probably not alone. I had went to church decades ago and I left for another decade because gut feelings aren't my cup of tea and what we were experiencing didn't match what the Bible says.

I had already made up my mind I wasn't coming back unless I could experience it like how the Bible says it's supposed to be. So here I am.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Do you even know the historical context behind John 1:1?

Can you explain this for us?

 

[Eleanor]

Can you explain this for us?

He is referring to Greek philosophy regarding logos.

 

[Ladodgers6]

He is referring to Greek philosophy regarding logos.

Oh, I am curious why he has concerns about John 1:1?

 

[grace2]

Ah, so you do not believe Jesus is God incarnate? Who do you say he is?

what does Jesus say He is?

I know He says He is the Son of God.

And I am His follower, so I believe He is the Son of God as He says He is.

Why don't you believe what He says?

 

[grace2]

Who do you say he is?

Jesus says many things about Himself.

He says He is His Father's Servant.

He says He is His followers' Brother.

He is the Messiah the Christ.

But He never claimed to be God.

{edit}

 

[Ladodgers6]

what does Jesus say He is?

I know He says He is the Son of God.

And I am His follower, so I believe He is the Son of God as He says He is.

Why don't you believe what He says?

To get more clarification if you don't mind. Do you deny the Trinity as well?

 

[Ladodgers6]

Jesus says many things about Himself.

He says He is His Father's Servant.

He says He is His followers' Brother.

He is the Messiah the Christ.

But He never claimed to be God.

{edit}

Who rescued the Israelites out of Egypt? What name did God give to Moses?

 

[Ladodgers6]

Jesus says many things about Himself.

He says He is His Father's Servant.

He says He is His followers' Brother.

He is the Messiah the Christ.

But He never claimed to be God.

{edit}

What does this passage mean?

Exodus 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

 

[grace2]

Who rescued the Israelites out of Egypt? What name did God give to Moses?

Why are you avoiding the point?

You are derailing the subject.

to answer your question, it is the Father.

I will not derail from the subject.

It is meaningless to discuss it.

 

[grace2]

What does this passage mean?

Exodus 20:3 “You shall have no other gods before me.

This is talking about not making up your imaginary god which is exactly what you are doing with triune god.

 

[Binyawmene]

I agree, a sinner doesn't need to know how the Trinity works to be saved. I totally agree with this statement. Can you clarify what you mean, the Trinity is not the mean for regeneration?​

I pretty much did, and you agreed with me. The belief in the Trinity is not the cause (or the means), but rather, it is the result of a person who is already regenerated. Unless you hold to some form of easy believeism?

Oh, I am curious why he has concerns about John 1:1?

I have no concerns for John 1:1. But just quoting a Bible verse is a conversation stopper. Asking questions is a way to bring out a discussion. She failed to give an interpretation, so I tried to give a different approach, what is the historical context. She assumed Greek philosophy. And it wasn't so much about Greek philosophy, but who the author is addressing, which is the proto-gnosticism. And how would the 1st. century audience understood the author's original intent. You won't understand the verse unless you have an historical back-ground behind it.

 

[Binyawmene]

I'm not a scientist of the word of God.
I understand in all in the context of it all.
And like gravity, I understand it well enough to effectively believe and apply it to my life and worship.

The contextual meaning of Jn 1:1-14 intended by the penman is that Jesus of Nazareth is Greek philosophy's First Cause, great Intelligence and Reason behind the universe, which to the Jew means YHWH.

Bottom line: Jesus is the deity, YHWH, of the OT and is what was called the logos in Greek philosophy, which logos is actually deity, supreme, and the YHWH of the OT.

That is its relevance to the gospel.

Hopefully, the same way anything is to be understood. . .in context of the whole writing.

The Greeks would have understood it to mean the logos of Greek philosophy was deity.
The Jews would have understood it to mean that the Greek logos was YHWH.

You failed to address my questions.

1. What is the interpretation for John 1:1,14?
2. What is the historical back-ground behind those two verses?
3. How would the 1st. century audiences understood those two verses?
4. What was the author's original intent?

I don't want someone play captain hero to save you from your failure. I want you to answer the questions. But I know you can't, or you would have done so already.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Why are you avoiding the point?

You are derailing the subject.

to answer your question, it is the Father.

I will not derail from the subject.

It is meaningless to discuss it.

I do not avoid debates, you said you deny the divinity of Jesus Christ, you made that clear. I believe in the consubstantiality of the Son. The reason you do not want to answer my questions is because you know I am going to show you that you hold a wrong position on the divinity of the Son.

But it's okay, I'll present it anyway. It was God who rescued and lead the Israelites out of the bondage in Egypt; by cloud by day, and pillar of fire by night. It was God who parted the Red Sea to allow the Israelites to cross, then closed the Red Sea upon Pharaoh and his Army. This is undisputed account of God redeeming his people out of bondage. Then Moses and the Israelites sang a song upon the defeat of Pharaoh and his army.
​

The Song of Moses

1Then Moses and the people of Israel sang this song to the LORD, saying,


“I will sing to the LORD, for he has triumphed gloriously;
the horse and his rider he has thrown into the sea.
2 The LORD is my strength and my song,
and he has become my salvation;
this is my God, and I will praise him,
my father’s God, and I will exalt him.
3 The LORD is a man of war;
the LORD is his name.
4 “Pharaoh’s chariots and his host he cast into the sea,
and his chosen officers were sunk in the Red Sea.
5 The floods covered them;
they went down into the depths like a stone.
6 Your right hand, O LORD, glorious in power,
your right hand, O LORD, shatters the enemy.
7 In the greatness of your majesty you overthrow your adversaries;
you send out your fury; it consumes them like stubble.
8 At the blast of your nostrils the waters piled up;
the floods stood up in a heap;
the deeps congealed in the heart of the sea.
9 The enemy said, ‘I will pursue, I will overtake,
I will divide the spoil, my desire shall have its fill of them.
I will draw my sword; my hand shall destroy them.’
10 You blew with your wind; the sea covered them;
they sank like lead in the mighty waters.
11 “Who is like you, O LORD, among the gods?
Who is like you, majestic in holiness,
awesome in glorious deeds, doing wonders?
12 You stretched out your right hand;
the earth swallowed them.
13 “You have led in your steadfast love the people whom you have redeemed;
you have guided them by your strength to your holy abode.
14 The peoples have heard;
they tremble;
pangs have seized the inhabitants of Philistia.
15 Now are the chiefs of Edom dismayed;
trembling seizes the leaders of Moab;
all the inhabitants of Canaan have melted away.
16 Terror and dread fall upon them;
because of the greatness of your arm, they are still as a stone,
till your people, O LORD, pass by,
till the people pass by whom you have purchased.
17 You will bring them in and plant them on your own mountain,
the place, O LORD, which you have made for your abode,
the sanctuary, O Lord, which your hands have established.
18 The LORD will reign forever and ever.”
19 For when the horses of Pharaoh with his chariots and his horsemen went into the sea, the LORD brought back the waters of the sea upon them, but the people of Israel walked on dry ground in the midst of the sea. 20 Then Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a tambourine in her hand, and all the women went out after her with tambourines and dancing. 21 And Miriam sang to them:
“Sing to the LORD, for he has triumphed gloriously;
the horse and his rider he has thrown into the sea.”​

Moses and the Israelites sing this song praising and glorifying God for saving them from Pharaoh and his Army. Depicting his almighty power that makes other leaders of Moab, Philistia, Canaan tremble and melt at his almighty power. The LORD is my strength and my song, and he has become my salvation; this is my God, and I will praise him, my father’s God, and I will exalt him.

There's no question that it was God Almighty who saved the Israelites from the bondage of the Pharaoh. Let's now look at Jude v. 5:5 Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.

So, scripture teaches us that it was Jesus who saved the Israelites out of the land of Egypt. God Almighty himself! ​

 

[Ladodgers6]

This is talking about not making up your imaginary god which is exactly what you are doing with triune god.

Would you say that this verse is saying not to worship any other gods, except God himself? By worshipping other gods is a sin of idolatry, correct?

 

[grace2]

I believe in the consubstantiality of the Son.

​

that is your imaginary god.

All your redundant claims are meaningless without Scriptural support.

 

[grace2]

Would you say that this verse is saying not to worship any other gods, except God himself? By worshipping other gods is a sin of idolatry, correct?

Your triune god worshipping is idolatry.