Yahweh 301,302 or Trinity 301,302

[Red Baker]

am open to discussing with others including @Red Baker

I'll do so later, have a few appointments this morning~sorry. RB

See #14, if Eleanor is finish then I will use that post to post to you. fair enough?

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Red Baker,

I'll do so later, have a few appointments this morning~sorry. RB

See #14, if Eleanor is finish then I will use that post to post to you. fair enough?

That's fine. I will wait for your involvement. In the meantime I decided to add a few more notes on John 10:30-36. Some years ago I was invited to attend a series of seminars on the Prophecy of Daniel in a local SDA Church. I thought it may be interesting to compare notes on the understanding of Daniel. The class on Daniel 1 went smoothly led by the SDA Pastor. Most of the second class went smoothly and this was conducted by the Pastor’s wife, who could have been a joint Pastor. I did object to the SDA view that the earth would be burnt and desolate for the 1000 years. Daniel 3 went smoothly. The next class many were away and so that the others did not miss out on Daniel the subject was changed and we were issued with a leaflet in the same style as the Daniel seminar notes, but the subject was the Trinity. The most prominent verse quoted in the leaflet was John 10:30, and when we got to that reference there was a general murmur of consent that this verse taught the Trinity. At the time I stated that I did not agree, but stated that I believe that Jesus is the Son of God. I could not support my claim at that time, and this was the last class that I attended. One member stated to me after the class that I was not welcome and should not attend with my wrong ideas.

It was some years later that a thread appeared on a forum discussing the quotation of Psalm 82:6 by Jesus and how this was relevant to an understanding of John 10:30.

The following are my two notes that I attached to my Bible program on Psalm 82:6 concerning the Judges in Israel and their responsibility to judge faithfully, and this also includes an explanation of why the Judges were called Elohim. I could edit these, but will copy them as is:

Note 1: John 10:34 (KJV): Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
appears to be a direct quotation of
Psalm 82:6 (KJV): I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
and Jesus is most probably alluding to the whole context and possibly John 10 is only a precis of all that was spoken. The whole drift of the Psalm is the impending judgment on those who have not lived up to their Divinely given authority and responsibility. Jesus was the living embodiment of the Divine character, "I and the Father are one", the one "sanctified and sent into the world", and the one who stated "I said, I am the Son of God". Jesus was the true fulfilment of Elohim, and it is through him that God will arise and judge the earth.

The sequel vv6-8 shows that God does not intend to leave these unworthy gods in control, or to get rid of them and leave the needy without any framework of justice. The psalm is at first about the judges of Israel, but it ends with a far wider view of the just government God intends to set up eventually.

Note 2: Relevant verses to Judges in the role of Elohim:
Exodus 21:6 (KJV): 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges (Elohim); he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges (Elohim), to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour’s goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges (Elohim); and whom the judges (Elohim) shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.

Deuteronomy 1:17 (KJV): Ye shall not respect persons in judgment; but ye shall hear the small as well as the great; ye shall not be afraid of the face of man; for the judgment is God’s: and the cause that is too hard for you, bring it unto me, and I will hear it.

2 Chronicles 19:6 (KJV): And said to the judges, Take heed what ye do: for ye judge not for man, but for the LORD, who is with you in the judgment.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Eleanor]

Greetings again Eleanor,

It appears to me that you are not really interested in discussing any passage,

As you are not interested in Biblically showing the error of my argument, following, because you cannot. Therefore, it remains unrefuted.

Whoever rejects the words of Jesus' apostles are rejecting his words (Lk 10:16).
Why do you reject Jesus' words of his apostles, following?

Mt 3:3 and Lk 1:67-68, 76 regarding Isa 40:3 where Matthew and Luke say that Jesus is the YHWH of whom the voice calling in the wilderness (John the Baptist) prepared the way.

Ro 10:9, 13 regarding Joel 2:32 where Paul teaches Jesus is the YHWH of Joel's prophecy that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved."

Heb 1:6 regarding Dt 32:43 where Paul quotes Moses' song referring to YHWH and says it applies to Jesus.

Rev 1:12-18 regarding Isa 44:6, 48:12 where John reports the man in the vision is Jesus (1:18, 2:8) who identifies himself as the First and the Last which is YHWH identification of himself.

Rev 21:6, 22:12-13 regarding Rev 1:8 where John reports the man in the vision (Jesus) identifies himself as the Alpha and Omega of Rev 1:8, which is YHWH.

Rev 21:5-7 regarding Rev 20:11-13 where John reports Jesus, the one on the throne (Rev 20:11-13 with Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39), is God (Rev 21:7).

Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10 where John and Paul say the YHWH who created all things (Ge 1:1, Is 44:24, Jer 10:16) is Jesus.

 

[Red Baker]

Jesus also was not God,

Emphasis are mine for discussion.

First~The scriptures you used from John 10, and then John 17, are not speaking of the same truth, even though the same wording was used. ~you are using the same words sounds to support your biased doctrine that Jesus was not God manifest in human flesh.

In God John 10, there Jesus is saying that he was God manifest in human flesh, even the Pharisees understood what he was saying to them.

John 10:30-39~"I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,"

He proved to them that he was indeed the Son of God, and God was his Father, making himself equal to God, by escaping out of their hand!

In John 17 where the same language is used, the context will show us that there Christ is speaking of his sheep being united.

John 17:20-23~"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."

The oneness here is speaking of being united in love, joy, plan, purpose, and kingdom priorities~look at John 17:11~this oneness we enjoy is in God our Father~our divine sonship and with Jesus as our Lord. It is this sonship we are called to display before the world being the salt of the earth and a light that is sat upon the hill. Being sons of God should promote our love for the brethren, the other children of God by the same adoption we all enjoy. This is what Jesus is praying for, much different than John 10:31! Trevor, you are not using the word of God properly, but cherry picking scriptures to try to support your biased doctrine and by doing so, you are guilty of corrupting the doctrine of Jesus Christ, a very serious charge God does not take lightly.

Jesus also was not God, but represented God

Sir, you might want to rethink your dangerous position! Even Jesus said that before Abraham I AM! There only one way that is possible~he was the very God that Abraham prayed to and worship!

The most important doctrine and Person of the Christian religion is Jesus Christ our Lord. Trevor, I represent God, yet I'm not Jesus Christ~ there have been millions who have represented God, but only one did that was his only begotten Son, making him equal to God, JESUS OF NAZARETH. Listen to Paul:

Romans 9:5~"Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."

God blessed for ever is JESUS CHRIST! On and on we could go.

He is also a human, the Son of God revealing the character of God.

Yes, Jesus was a human 100% so, yet, he was God 100% so~he was a complex person, the only one that ever lived in this world~God blessed for ever.

I thought Binyawmene above what little he said said was excellent and worthy to be read and consider diligently.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Red Baker,

First~The scriptures you used from John 10, and then John 17, are not speaking of the same truth, even though the same wording was used. ~you are using the same words sounds to support your biased doctrine that Jesus was not God manifest in human flesh.

They are not just the same words sounds, they are the same words. It is talking about moral unity in both, not a moral unity in John 17 and a physical unity in John 10. Jesus was God manifest in human flesh on a moral plane and could be addressed as Elohim and as the Son of God like the Judges in the OT and the Angels, not because God the Son had somehow been injected into the womb of Mary. He was also the Son of God because God the Father was his father in the conception/birth process, and so he is uniquely THE Son of God both physically and morally, he was full of grace and truth.

you might want to rethink your dangerous position! Even Jesus said that before Abraham I AM! There only one way that is possible~he was the very God that Abraham prayed to and worship!

My exposition of The Yahweh Name refutes the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14 (KJV) in favour of Tyndale, the RV and RSV margins and other scholars, as this should be translated as "I will be/He will be". John 8:58 should be translated as "I am he", the same as John 8:24,28. These three references are part of a theme in John's Gospel about whether Jesus is the Christ or not. When did Abraham rejoice to see Jesus' day, and what is this really speaking about? Was Abraham looking forward to a future day when Christ would be revealed?

God blessed for ever is JESUS CHRIST! On and on we could go.

I doubt that your conclusion from Romans 9:5 is correct. Nearly every epistle clearly distinguish between the One God, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Yes, Jesus was a human 100% so, yet, he was God 100% so~he was a complex person, the only one that ever lived in this world~God blessed for ever.

I suggest that "100% human and 100% God" is such a contradiction and impossibility that any reasonable, sane person would dismiss. List the qualities of a human and compare the qualities of God. Did Jesus as a child have the mind of a child and at the same time the full mind of God, and did he need to learn wisdom Luke 2:40,52?

I thought @Binyawmene above what little he said said was excellent and worthy to be read and consider diligently.

I do not have the problem that divides Trinitarians. Both God and Jesus are distinct persons and beings.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings again Red Baker,

They are not just the same words sounds, they are the same words. It is talking about moral unity in both, not a moral unity in John 17 and a physical unity in John 10. Jesus was God manifest in human flesh on a moral plane and could be addressed as Elohim and as the Son of God like the Judges in the OT and the Angels, not because God the Son had somehow been injected into the womb of Mary. He was also the Son of God because God the Father was his father in the conception/birth process, and so he is uniquely THE Son of God both physically and morally, he was full of grace and truth.

Greetings Trevor~Trevor, context, context context drives its interpretation for us! Consider with me carefully of the context in which Jesus said to the Jews in reference to their question to him if thou be the Christ tell us plainly, and he did just that~by ending his statement to them that he and his Father are one.

John 10:24-33~"Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

Trevor, not going to spend a lot of time here, I highlighted the phrases that proves in which manner Jesus was one with his Father~ we see what is contributed to one, is also contributed to the other, making them one ( equal ) in nature as the one God manifest as three to us throughout the NT according to each their work in the salvation of the elect.

These scriptures have absolutely no reference to moral unity as you want others to believe. You cannot even make them have reference to moral unity if you try by using the context before us that we have preserved in the scriptures. Your next best step would try to convince simple minded believers these words do not belong in the original text, etc., etc. as your folks do with other scriptures like 1st John 5, etc. God's children are not ignorant of Satan's devices 2nd Corinthian 2:11~so, the very elect will not be deceived going that route.

My exposition of The Yahweh Name refutes the "I AM" of Exodus 3:14 (KJV) in favour of Tyndale, the RV and RSV margins and other scholars, as this should be translated as "I will be/He will be". John 8:58 should be translated as "I am he", the same as John 8:24,28. These three references are part of a theme in John's Gospel about whether Jesus is the Christ or not.

There you go~Trevor, do you truly believe God's elect care about what scholars have to say? I for one certainly do not.

When did Abraham rejoice to see Jesus' day, and what is this really speaking about? Was Abraham looking forward to a future day when Christ would be revealed?

When the Christ of God~of Isaiah 9:6 would come into the world and give his life for the sins of God's elect, by being put to death and rising again from the dead to live for evermore as LORD of lords and and King of kings~God blessed for ever! Abraham saw it right here:

Genesis 22:1-18~"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am. And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of. And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him. Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off. And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together. And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen. And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice."

Need help here Trevor? These scriptures should answer your question, but most likely they will not unless God opens your heart to who the Christ of God was? He was the promised seed of Isaiah 9:6 and and hundred more scriptures that points to who Jesus of Nazareth was. He was more than just a man, he was God manifest in the flesh with a complex natures, being both man and God in one person, a truth you just cannot seem to comprehend.

 

[Red Baker]

Part two:

I doubt that your conclusion from Romans 9:5 is correct.

You doubt? Prove why you doubt~ of course, you cannot, but it would be very unsafe to reject God's truth for you biased doctrine that you have come to accept.

Nearly every epistle clearly distinguish between the One God, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Yes, we understand that very clearly and we too make that distinction~as we said, Jesus was a complex person with two natures, which only the Son of God could have had. One God, manifest as three according to each work in the redemption of God's elect. What's so hard about this?

I suggest that "100% human and 100% God" is such a contradiction and impossibility that any reasonable, sane person would dismiss. List the qualities of a human and compare the qualities of God. Did Jesus as a child have the mind of a child and at the same time the full mind of God, and did he need to learn wisdom Luke 2:40,52?

Again, you have trouble with the great mystery of the Godhead, when all one has to do is rightly divide scripture and then one should never have that much trouble again, I'm a simple person with no education, yet I see this so clearly.

It certainly is no impossibility with God, so I'm not sure why you think that it is. As a child growing into manhood his flesh was ignorant, and had to grow in wisdom and knowledge as a human does from childhood to adulthood. Yet, he also possess infinite knowledge when he saw Nathanael under the fig tree before he saw him in person with his see !

John 1:47,48~"Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee."

Need more we have many more. Just learned I must break this post into two~sorry.

 

[Red Baker]

I do not have the problem that divides Trinitarians. Both God and Jesus are distinct persons and beings.

This is so only in Jesus' humanity~but not so in his glorified humanity~he will be worshipped as the TRUE GOD, yet Jesus in his humanity will be subject unto God who is a Spirit~and that will never changed, no never.

1st Corinthians 15:27,28~"For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Red Baker, Part 1

Trevor, not going to spend a lot of time here, I highlighted the phrases that proves in which manner Jesus was one with his Father~ we see what is contributed to one, is also contributed to the other, making them one ( equal ) in nature as the one God manifest as three to us throughout the NT according to each their work in the salvation of the elect.

I see a unity between God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son of God, but I see no mention that Jesus had the same physical nature as God during his ministry. The role of "Christ" is very extensive, but it indicates that Jesus was anointed by God for various roles including prophet, priest and king. While David was anointed with oil by Samuel, and similarly Jehu by one of the prophets at Elisha's instruction, Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit directly from heaven in the form of a dove and this was said to abide on him. I used the term "moral" unity, and perhaps I should clarify. Our Youth Leader used to use the expression "mental, moral and physical", and I would now expand this to explain "mental" as the initial faith that we have when we first believe the Gospel of the Kingdom and Name, but this then develops into a strong faith and perhaps this is the word "moral" where it affects our emotions and character and then "physical" an almost complete faith and trust in God so that our every action is in conformity with the will and purpose of God. Jesus was completely prepared and fulfilled all of this, he was full of grace and truth, remarkable words, almost uniquely applied to Jesus and his character.

I find no hint in the three records of Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35 and John 1:14 that somehow God the Son was transferred from heaven into the womb of Mary. Jesus was born 100% a human only, and his parents were God the Father and Mary. Jesus was what he was because of BOTH nurture and "nature" in the sense of hereditary attributes received from God and Mary. He did not receive Divine Nature in his conception / birth, as he was a mortal human only.

Your next best step would try to convince simple minded believers these words do not belong in the original text, etc., etc. as your folks do with other scriptures like 1st John 5

I am only conscious of 1 John 5:7 being questioned in my fellowship, and this is also questioned by many Trinitarians.

There you go~Trevor, do you truly believe God's elect care about what scholars have to say? I for one certainly do not.

As far as the subject of the One God, we were instructed in early Sunday School (under 8 y.o.) "What is God called? Answer: The Father" and "Who is Jesus Christ? Answer: God's own son." Later we were given more instruction, and I gradually learned that most Churches believed the Trinity concept, but most did not understand this. I was introduced to the Yahweh Name concepts when I was 19 at a Young People's Study Weekend in the Southern Highlands. It was memorable for the teaching received which has become one of my favourite subjects. It was also where I started to court Joyce and we were married four years later, and now married for 56 years.

John Thomas, our major pioneer, wrote articles in his magazine in 1858 on the subject of Yahweh, which he expounded as "He who will be", and his exposition has been endorsed by many scholars since. Also many other Bible scholars have confirmed this translation and exposition.

When the Christ of God~of Isaiah 9:6 would come into the world and give his life for the sins of God's elect, by being put to death and rising again from the dead to live for evermore as LORD of lords and and King of kings~God blessed for ever! Abraham saw it right here:

I appreciate your response here. Most Trinitarians use John 8:56-58 to prove that Jesus is claiming to be living in Abraham's time, rather than the fact that Abraham looked forward to the Lamb of God who would die and be resurrected.

He was more than just a man, he was God manifest in the flesh with a complex natures, being both man and God in one person, a truth you just cannot seem to comprehend.

We may be close here, but it is God the Father who was revealed in and through Jesus, not a separate being called God the Son.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Red Baker, Part 2

Yes, we understand that very clearly and we too make that distinction~as we said, Jesus was a complex person with two natures, which only the Son of God could have had. One God, manifest as three according to each work in the redemption of God's elect. What's so hard about this?

Perhaps a list of each of the introduction of each epistles may clarify and suffice:
Romans 1:1–7 (KJV): 1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; 4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: 5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: 6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: 7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: 3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia: 2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:1–5 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead 2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia: 3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Ephesians 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: 2 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Colossians 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother, 2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians 1:1 (KJV): 1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Timothy 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; 2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.

2 Timothy 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, 2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Titus 1:4 (KJV): To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.

Philemon 3 (KJV): Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

James 1:1 (KJV): James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

1 Peter 1:1–3 (KJV): 1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

2 Peter 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

2 John 3 (KJV): Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Did any of the above individuals or Congregations believe in the Trinity, or was this a 3rd or 4th Century development based upon Greek philosophy?

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Red Baker, Part 3

Again, you have trouble with the great mystery of the Godhead, when all one has to do is rightly divide scripture and then one should never have that much trouble again, I'm a simple person with no education, yet I see this so clearly.

Perhaps you have not read about the slow development of the Trinity teaching by a number of Greek philosophers and immortal soul concepts.

It certainly is no impossibility with God, so I'm not sure why you think that it is. As a child growing into manhood his flesh was ignorant, and had to grow in wisdom and knowledge as a human does from childhood to adulthood. Yet, he also possess infinite knowledge when he saw Nathanael under the fig tree before he saw him in person with his see !

Jesus received the Holy Spirit from God the Father. His many miracles and ability to know the hearts is because of this.
Acts 2:22–24 (KJV): 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

This is so only in Jesus' humanity~but not so in his glorified humanity~he will be worshipped as the TRUE GOD, yet Jesus in his humanity will be subject unto God who is a Spirit~and that will never changed, no never.

1 Corinthians 15:27–28 (KJV): 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
You quote the above passage which is one of the strongest Unitarian verses, disproving the Trinity. It is also the fulfillment of the Yahweh Name.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings Trevor~I'm just letting you know I have read your three posts and will answer them maybe today, just not sure of how much time I may have, since I'm having a small surgery today to remove skin cancer ( melanoma ) from my abdomen area. Nothing major yet when one gets all grown up ( a nice way of saying getting old! ) things like this happens. I think you are I are close to being he same age, I too have been married for 55 years to my Hi School sweetheart. Four children and eighteen grandchildren later, waiting on our great grandchild, not sure who is going to be first to delivery.

I'm champing at the bit to answer you...... trust me. RB

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings again Red Baker, Part 1

I see a unity between God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son of God,.

Then all I can say, you are not seeing the truth as of yet. Trevor, there can be unity between man and man; man and God, this prove nothing more than agreement and striving together for one purpose and goal. The apostles all had that with with God, yet not one of them was the Son of God, thus making them equal to God.

but I see no mention that Jesus had the same physical nature as God during his ministry

Trevor, not physical, but deity~divine status, quality, or nature! This is seen many times over. I gave one example above of Jesus seeing Nathanael under the fig tree before he saw him with his own yes, this could only be so in his deity, or divine status as God manifest in the flesh.

No man could have said that not even Moses or any of the great OT prophets, which proves that Jesus was more than just a prophet, more than just a man, he was indeed the promised Christ of Isaiah 9:6, Micah 5:2; etc.

Micah 5:2~"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

Trevor, why do you reject such scriptures as this one, and more can be added.

I find no hint in the three records of Matthew 1:20-21, Luke 1:34-35 and John 1:14 that somehow God the Son was transferred from heaven into the womb of Mary. Jesus was born 100% a human only, and his parents were God the Father and Mary. Jesus was what he was because of BOTH nurture and "nature" in the sense of hereditary attributes received from God and Mary. He did not receive Divine Nature in his conception / birth, as he was a mortal human only.

You find none because you do not want to admit to what is clearly there.

First, let me say that God the Son was not transfer from heaven into the womb of Mary. God had no Son until Jesus was conceived by the power of the Holy Ghost ( I know you folks do not like to use the phrase "Holy Ghost" for some unknown strange reason. ) in the womb of Mary around two thousand years ago. He was not transferred but conceived! Jesus was God's only begotten Son in the manner in which he was conceived without a earthly father~ by-passing Adam's posterity which is corrupt by nature from conception~he became the second Adam with flesh and blood, yet not the first Adam's but God's!

Bare with me, this is going to be a little long, we do not want any stone left unturned!

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.​

And the Word~call this title because the Word is the revealer and declarer of God's written word.

When identifying a trinity of witnesses in heaven, John used Word (I Jn 5:7). The Word of God is the name for the divine spirit that is God and with God.

The Word of God is God, was with God as a part of the Trinity, and so forth. He was the eternal God Himself, for it says that He was in the beginning. He was with God, for Jehovah is a trinity, and the Word is one of its three. He was God, for the Word of God is nothing more than a pure divine Spirit. He was with God in the beginning to prove equally independent existence. He was the Creator God of all things, and without Him nothing was created.

Note very carefully that it was the Word, and not the Son, that is named here. The Word and the Son are not the same Being/Person without clarification. The Word became the Son by His incarnation in human flesh through Mary. The Son is dependent on both the Word and His human nature for existence. The Son was not made flesh, because the Son is flesh by His very existence.
+
Was made flesh.

This is part of the great mystery of godliness – God was manifest in the flesh. This Trevor you and your cult reject.

The Word of God joining human flesh is not a mystery to us by revelation. Modern translations remove God … lying with he, Christ, who, and which.

This is an incredible event in all recorded history – Jehovah God became man.

Jesus Christ is also known as Emmanuel – God with us (Is 7:14; Matt 1:23). Trevor, you and your cult reject this truth~why?

Jesus had a human body indwelt by the fullness of the Godhead (Col 2:8-9).

God is a spirit. Jesus had a body. Jesus Christ is God, but God is not Jesus.

The incarnation of the Word of God with a human body is a precious doctrine.

Theologians use a term hypostatic union to describe our Lord’s two natures. God is a Spirit (Jn 4:24), but a human body was prepared for Him (He 10:5).

Christ’s deity (Jn 8:58) nor humanity (Heb 4:15) was changed by the union.

He is not fully Jesus Christ, Son of God, without His body (Lu 2:12; 24:39).

We reject any variation of the simple doctrine and facts recorded in the Bible.

The Word of God did not have a human body in eternity like some teach. The flesh body of Jesus was not a phantom body or a ghost-like apparition. Denial of the human flesh body of Jesus is very wrong (I Jn 4:2-3; II Jn 1:7). Spirits have no flesh, blood, bone; Jesus had all three (Luke 24:39; Heb 2:14).

Before the Word was flesh in Jesus, God did not have a Son but by covenant.

The Son was not made flesh; the Son did not exist until the Word was flesh.

God works by covenant, choosing His elect in Jesus before the world began.

God did not speak to Israel by His Son until Jesus was born (Heb 1:1-2).

The flesh body prepared for Jesus by God was chosen from David’s family tree.

God promised the Messiah to be a Son of David in many places (Gen 49:10; II Sam 7:12-16; Ps 89:36-37; Is 9:6-7; Jer 23:5-6; 33:15-17; Amos 9:11). God’s Son was made of the seed of David according to the flesh (Rom 1:3). Therefore, the Son of God is Son of David (Mat 1:1; Luke 1:32; Rev 22:16). The Son of David by Joseph/Solomon and Mary/Nathan (Matt 1:7; Lu 3:31).

Jesus had to have a literal and real flesh-bone-blood body to die for us sinners.Jesus Christ’s flesh body descended from the Jewish fathers (Romans 9:5). He was made of a woman in her womb in order to have His body (Gal 4:4). He took on our nature for the suffering of death in our place (Heb 2:14-18). A body was prepared for Him, and He willingly offered it (Heb 10:5-10,20). His body was formed in the womb of a woman like every other man is formed. Mary conceived and bore a human child like others (Mat 1:18-20; Lu 2:23). Without a mother, God has no Son … for God made Jesus by her (Gal 4:4). This way He was made in the likeness of men after being God (Phil 2:5-11).

Part one....

 

[Red Baker]

Part two....

And dwelt among us.

Dwelt. past tense of dwell. To remain (in a house, country, etc.) as a permanent residence; to have one’s abode; to reside, ‘live’. See Gen 4:16 and Rev 11:10. Jesus dwelt in Nazareth of Galilee, so Jesus of Nazareth (Matt 2:23; 21:11). He dwelt in Capernaum, a seaport of Galilee near Nazareth (Matt 4:13-17). He was among the apostles, for they lived with Him among Jews (I John 1:1-3). They heard … saw … looked upon … handled … saw … and bore witness. They were so intimate and personal John leaned on His bosom (John 13:23). God does not dwell on earth – a footstool (Act 7:48-50; 17:24-25; Is 66:1-2). Let us never forget that by this Man’s death, God and He dwell in us (Jn 14:23).

And we beheld his glory.

Beheld. past tense of behold. To hold or keep in view, to watch; to regard or contemplate with the eyes; to look upon, look at (implying active voluntary exercise of the faculty of vision). See 52 uses in Bible (Gen 12:14; Rev 13:11). If the Word of God was beheld – seen by human eyes – He was more than God. God is an invisible spirit that cannot be seen at anytime by any human eyes. John declared this fact a few verses later that Jesus revealed God (Jn 1:18).

The glory of One of the Trinity would annihilate any man looking on Him. What glory was beheld? As the text says, the glory of God’s only begotten Son. John explained about three witnesses of Jesus the Son of God (I John 5:5-6). At His baptism, God glorified Jesus as His beloved Son (Matthew 3:16-17). At death, God glorified Jesus as His Son with many events (Matt 27:50-54). His first miracle, not quite as marvelous as others, glorified Him (John 2:11). Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead to show the glory of God (John 11:4,40). These are all visible displays of the glory of Jesus Christ well seen by men. There was visible and invisible glory during and after Calvary (Jn 13:31-32). John saw His glorious transfiguration in the mount as the beloved Son of God. It is recorded in three gospels (Matthew 17:1-9; Mark 9:2-9; Luke 9:28-36). Luke mentions His glory, but Matthew and Mark do not (Luke 9:31-32). God the Father honored Him over Moses and Elijah as His beloved Son. Peter recounts the event with glory and honor as His Son (II Peter 1:16-18). He has much more glory now; John could not bear seeing it (Heb 2:9; Re 1:17).

Part three coming...

 

[Red Baker]

Part three....

The glory as of the only begotten of the Father.

What is the only begotten of the Father, so we can rightly appreciate His glory? The special phrase only begotten occurs six times in the Bible; five for Jesus; one for Isaac (John 1:14,18; 3:16,18; Heb 11:17; I John 4:9). It simply and only means a son by unique birth to make him one of a kind. Only. One, without companions or society; solitary, lonely. One of a kind. Begotten. Past participle of beget. To procreate, to generate: usually said of the father. See Gen 5:4; Numbers 11:12; Judges 8:30; I Cor 4:15; I John 5:1.

Isaac was only begotten being the only son by God’s promises and by Sarah. Jesus is the only begotten Son by God’s unique promises and a virgin’s birth. Jesus of Nazareth, born of Mary, is truly, only, and precisely the Son of God.

Jesus is God’s only begotten Son by His incarnate birth from a virgin’s womb. He is simply and only the single and solitary Son God fathered in a woman. His birth by God’s power in a virgin is uniquely different to all other sons. He was not Son of God before that event, for then He was the Word of God. Adam is called the son of God, but Jesus is alone as begotten (Luke 3:38). The angels and elect are called His sons, but not this way (I Jn 3:1; Job 1:6). God did a new thing by creating a body for Jesus this special way (Je 31:22). Gabriel told Mary exactly why Jesus was the Son of God (Luke 1:30-35). God’s Son had to be made of a woman, and this is how (Gal 4:4; Gen 3:15).

Luke presented Jesus as the son of God, but totally different (Luke 3:38) God also begat Jesus by raising Him from the dead to inherit rule of all things. The verses corrupted here are mainly Psalm 2:7 and Hebrews 1:5. Get this! Paul taught that Psalm 2:7 was fulfilled at Christ’s resurrection (Acts 13:33). Other passages by Paul and others confirm it (Rom 1:4; Rev 1:5; Col 1:18). Why would God use such confusing language? To confuse the worldly wise!

Jesus is firstborn of every creature: He has the preeminent place (Col 1:15-19). Jesus is firstfruits of the elect: He rose first for them to follow (I Co 15:20-23). Consider the glorious aspects of Jesus Christ of Nazareth to glory more in Him. He had the full Godhead in His flesh body, regardless of skeptics (Co 2:8-9). The only mediator between God and men is the Man Christ Jesus (I Ti 2:5). Jesus has our nature to destroy him with the power of death (Heb 2:14-17). Jesus has our human nature to fully relate to His people (Heb 2:18; 4:15-16). The gospel calls men to believe Jesus of Nazareth is the Son of God (Matt 16:16; John 9:35-38; 20:31; Acts 8:37; 9:20; I John 5:4-5).

Full of grace and truth.

Jesus is an all-sufficient Savior securing for us the unsearchable riches of grace. God’s grace is by His will, but grace was obtained and given in Jesus Christ. Where are all God’s spiritual blessings? They are in Christ Jesus (Ep 1:3-6). Not only is He full of grace, He has given it to us, grace for grace (Jn 1:16). The immediate comparison to Moses’ Law indicates new covenant religion. Jesus could have come as angry Judge, but He came to save (I Tim 1:14-16). Grace is demerited favor – think of how the Word of God might have come. But He came with healing in His wings … grace pouring from His lips … great grace to save the worst to the uttermost … and grace wherein we stand. The Rosary and its Hail Mary is blasphemous, for its “full of grace”; Mary had no grace, needing a Savior like all others, and she gives grace to no one.

Jesus is the Faithful and True Witness of God for the truth of the new covenant. Jesus and His predecessor John Baptist introduced reformation of worship. The Law entered to condemn; graces reigns by Jesus Christ (Rom 5:20-21).

So, Trevor, why do you not see in John 1:14 that God was made flesh in the person of Jesus of Nazareth? The Word joined Himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God and lived in this world in flesh for around 33 years.

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings again Red Baker, Part 1

I appreciate your response here. Most Trinitarians use John 8:56-58 to prove that Jesus is claiming to be living in Abraham's time, rather than the fact that Abraham looked forward to the Lamb of God who would die and be resurrected.

Kind regards
Trevor

Trevor, let me make it very clear~Jesus, as the Son of God was not living at the time of Abraham. That being said, Jesus, as Emmanuel, the Word made flesh, was the one that called Abraham out of his father's house to go unto a land that God would show him, as a picture of the world to come~all that Abraham could see and as far as Abraham could see and go, that was the land promised~in other words ALL of the world in which he lived in was a picture the New heaven and earth that the promised seed of Christ should inherit. Jesus was the I AM THAT I AM in his deity, the mighty God, the everlasting father of all things~without qualifications

We may be close here, but it is God the Father who was revealed in and through Jesus, not a separate being called God the Son.

No, we are not close.

Trevor, no one is saying God the Son, for the scriptures does not used that phrase, for God was not Jesus as we have said many times over~the scriptures said many times over~the Son of God, with the Highest being his Father by being begotten by him, the only one in the manner in which he was begotten. Read our notes again above on "begotten".

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings again Red Baker, Part 2

Perhaps a list of each of the introduction of each epistles may clarify and suffice:...........................................................................................................................Did any of the above individuals or Congregations believe in the Trinity, or was this a 3rd or 4th Century development based upon Greek philosophy?

Kind regards
Trevor

Trevor, those introductories to those epistles did not to prove your point~to teach the Church did not believe in a Trinity of the Godhead base upon God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit, each having a particular roles in the salvation from sin and condemnation of God's elect.

Actually if you consider them carefully that teach this:

One God, manifest as three according to the redemption of the very elect. They teach that Jesus had just as much authority as God as in his exalted position as Lord over all. Trevor, they ALL say this:

Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, AND from the Lord Jesus Christ.

The both equally have the right to bestowed grace and peace. What does that say to you?

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,

Trevor, again what does this say to you? Paul was a servant of WHOM? Jesus Christ, and this could only be so if Jesus was God.

Hebrews 1:1–2 (KJV): 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Trevor, this is one of your scriptures you quoted~so, let me ask you this question: How did Jesus create the worlds in the beginning, when he was not born until two thousand years ago? Jesus Christ was the very God of Genesis 1:1 in this deity.

Trevor, the NT doctrine of the Word's incarnation in the person of Jesus Christ helps us to understand all the scriptures that presents Jesus as man, fully man..... and as God, fully God. As we said above:

The incarnation of the Word of God with a human body is a precious doctrine.

Theologians use a term hypostatic union to describe our Lord’s two natures. God is a Spirit (Jn 4:24), but a human body was prepared for Him (He 10:5).

Christ’s deity (Jn 8:58) nor humanity (Heb 4:15) was changed by the union.

He is not fully Jesus Christ, Son of God, without His body (Lu 2:12; 24:39).

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings again Red Baker, Part 3

Perhaps you have not read about the slow development of the Trinity teaching by a number of Greek philosophers and immortal soul concepts.

Care less what Greek philosophers believe about anything. I would not waste my time reading one sentence about what they believe.

Jesus received the Holy Spirit from God the Father. His many miracles and ability to know the hearts is because of this.
Acts 2:22–24 (KJV): 22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: 23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: 24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Trevor, so have I and every other Christians, yet we are not the Son of God by conception~by adoption yes. Your jesus is not the Jesus of the word of the Living God, you need to rethink your position, for you surely cannot support your jesus with God's testimony.

1 Corinthians 15:27–28 (KJV): 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

You quote the above passage which is one of the strongest Unitarian verses, disproving the Trinity. It is also the fulfillment of the Yahweh Name.

Trevor, again you do err by not separating the complex nature of Jesus Christ. In his humanity Jesus will subject himself unto God who is a Spirit that lives in eternity.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Red Baker,

I'm having a small surgery today to remove skin cancer ( melanoma )

I hope your medical treatment was satisfactory. I have had one unusual sore and growth removed from my forehead, but it was not cancerous. I decided not to answer your posts in detail. There are a few new items, but much of it is a repeat of what we have already considered. I decided to clarify a few of the items that I have already mentioned. We looked at and discussed the following reference:
John 8:56–58 (KJV): 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

My main claim here is that I prefer that John 8:58 should be translated “I am he”, the same as in the immediate context John 8:24,28. This is part of the theme in John’s Gospel of whether or not Jesus is the Christ. The following are some of the verses that are part of this theme, and none of these have the rendition “I AM”, showing that this concept is incorrect and should not be part of John 8:58.

John 1:19-20 (KJV): 19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

John 4:25-26 (KJV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

John 8:24 (KJV): I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

The above references demonstrate that there is some difficulty in translating the Greek, but in none of the above are the Greek words rendered “I AM” or even “I am”, but the KJV translators saw the necessity of translating all of these as “I am he”. The following is another occurrence of the same Greek words, and these words are not speaking about Jesus, but refer to the blind man:

John 9:8-9 (KJV): 8 The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.

Thus I suggest that all of the earlier references are part of the theme of whether or not Jesus is the Christ. This corresponds closely with the ultimate purpose of John’s Gospel, which is stated in the following:

John 20:31-32 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This is the ultimate purpose of John’s Gospel and a correct understanding of his Gospel record excludes the wrong teaching of the Trinity, as his record clearly teaches that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

Another passage that I would like to clarify is the following which was quoted by Jesus when his opponents falsely accused Jesus of claiming to be “making himself God”:

Psalm 82:6 (KJV): I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

I have already quoted in post #22 some verses to explain where and how these Judges were called “gods” or “Elohim”, but it is interesting how different Bible versions have translated the first two references that I mentioned:

Exodus 21:6 (KJV): 6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Exodus 21:6 (NASB95): then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.

Exodus 22:8-9 (KJV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall be brought unto the judges, to see whether he have put his hand unto his neighbour’s goods. 9 For all manner of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, which another challengeth to be his, the cause of both parties shall come before the judges; and whom the judges shall condemn, he shall pay double unto his neighbour.

Exodus 22:8–9 (ASV): 8 If the thief be not found, then the master of the house shall come near unto God, to see whether he have not put his hand unto his neighbor’s goods. 9 For every matter of trespass, whether it be for ox, for ass, for sheep, for raiment, or for any manner of lost thing, whereof one saith, This is it, the cause of both parties shall come before God; he whom God shall condemn shall pay double unto his neighbor.

Exodus 22:8–9 (NASB95): 8 “If the thief is not caught, then the owner of the house shall appear before the judges, to determine whether he laid his hands on his neighbor’s property. 9 “For every breach of trust, whether it is for ox, for donkey, for sheep, for clothing, or for any lost thing about which one says, ‘This is it,’ the case of both parties shall come before the judges; he whom the judges condemn shall pay double to his neighbor.

Each translation is adequate, but they do not clearly reveal the unique feature that Jesus mentions, that the actual Judges were called gods, Elohim or God. When a person came before the Judges they were coming before God, because the Judges represented God.

This unique feature of the Scriptural revelation and language is also a bridge to the position and status of Jesus, whom we may address as:
John 20:28 (KJV): And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

This also links with the Divine Name “Yahweh”, properly translated as “He who will be”. The One God, Yahweh, God the Father would reveal himself in and through other individuals, and in the greatest fulfilment, our Lord Jesus Christ. When we look at Jesus we see God the Father revealed:
John 14:8–11 (KJV): 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
Jesus is not God the Son, revealing God the Son the second person of the Trinity. Jesus is the Son of God, revealing the One God, God the Father.

The Divine Name is not speaking of existence “I AM”, but it is a prophetic statement “I will be” and speaks of what God would accomplish, first in delivering Israel out of Egypt and bringing them into the land of promise, but it speaks of the greater salvation and deliverance in and through our Lord Jesus Christ, Yah’s salvation. The Yahweh Name is also prophetic of God’s purpose to fill this earth with His Glory Numbers 14:21, and this will be accomplished and brought to fruition with the harvest at the end of the 1000 years when all the individuals will reflect the moral character of God, grace and truth, and death will be abolished and all the faithful of that Age will be made immortal, and God will be all, and in all 1 Corinthians 15:28.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings again Red Baker,

I decided not to answer your posts in detail. There are a few new items, but much of it is a repeat of what we have already considered. I decided to clarify a few of the items that I have already mentioned. We looked at and discussed the following reference:
John 8:56–58 (KJV): 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Greetings Trevor, ( Part one to your post above, I'm sure it going to take more than one post to answer you in the manner I desire to do so )

I suppose all went well yesterday with my surgery, will know for sure in two weeks, or, as sure as it can be with man, that they got all of the cancer which was a little less than a size of a normal hand. Very sore today since they put around twenty stitches above the surface and under the surface, into my abdomen.

Trevor, you overlooked much of what I said above back to your post, but be as it is, I'll answer you post as thoroughly as possible to be fair with you and your understanding, and for benefit of all who may follow our debate. This is the most important doctrine in the scriptures, that's the doctrine of Jesus Christ, who he was. I cannot bid a man God's speed whose teachings concerning Christ is against the scriptures and not be guilty of partaking of his evil deeds/teachings.

2nd John verses 7-11~"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds."

Trevor, one of us are in serious error, and cannot be of God, impossible. We teach a different doctrine concerning Jesus Christ coming in the flesh as the I AM that I AM, of Genesis one, etc. Either he is, or not, there's no neutral ground and be of God, with the correct biblical doctrine concerning Jesus Christ.

My main claim here is that I prefer that John 8:58 should be translated “I am he

the same as in the immediate context John 8:24,28. This is part of the theme in John’s Gospel of whether or not Jesus is the Christ. The following are some of the verses that are part of this theme, and none of these have the rendition “I AM”, showing that this concept is incorrect and should not be part of John 8:58.

Trevor, the scriptures is not your "local salad bar" where one can pick and chooses what he likes and leave the other, because he doesn't like what he see. Trevor, by faith God's elect trust in Psalm 12.

Psalms 12:1-7~"Help, LORD; for the godly man ceaseth; for the faithful fail from among the children of men. They speak vanity every one with his neighbour: with flattering lips and with a double heart do they speak. The LORD shall cut off all flattering lips, and the tongue that speaketh proud things: Who have said, With our tongue will we prevail; our lips are our own: who is lord over us? For the oppression of the poor, for the sighing of the needy, now will I arise, saith the LORD; I will set him in safety from him that puffeth at him. The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. The wicked walk on every side, when the vilest men are exalted.

A wonderful Psalm of David. To be short, David took courage that God's words are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times! David, like Christ in Matthew 4:4, never question whether or not what they read in the synagogues where the very words of God, unlike men in the present generation in which we now live. David knew God would keep them, preserved them ( his word ) from this generation for ever!

What generation was David speaking about when he said this generation and added for ever? Look at the first few scriptures and it tells us~the generation of ungodly men who seeks to destroy the written word of God~Yet, David knew by faith that God would protect his word from the wicked and that forever unto the end of this world!

So, men have done what you are now attempting to do, by saying:

My main claim here is that I prefer that John 8:58 should be translated “I am he”,

You prefer this because it exposes your doctrine of rejecting Jesus' deity as God manifest in the flesh as hersey. I'm coming back to thsi verse soon.

he same as in the immediate context John 8:24,28. This is part of the theme in John’s Gospel of whether or not Jesus is the Christ. The following are some of the verses that are part of this theme, and none of these have the rendition “I AM”, showing that this concept is incorrect and should not be part of John 8:58.

John 1:19-20 (KJV): 19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.

John 4:25-26 (KJV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

John 8:24 (KJV): I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

The above references demonstrate that there is some difficulty in translating the Greek, but in none of the above are the Greek words rendered “I AM” or even “I am”, but the KJV translators saw the necessity of translating all of these as “I am he”.

Trevor, you are so inconsistent with what you believe which is the hallmark or error.

You believe John 8:56-58 is translated incorrectly, yet you believe the others are translated correctly! So, you truly do not believe God has kept his promise in protecting his word even through translations? I for one do and so did all of the apostles.

Jesus, nor this apostles ever question whether or not, the scribes translated the word of God from Moses to them correctly, they Knew, and had faith that God did protect his word, even through the many translations the ready scribes under the OT did. Jesus stood up to read, and read the scriptures as from the very mouth of God, how else can we with boldness teach, preach, the scriptures, unless we truly believe this to be so? You cannot!

Trevor, those scriptures you used that said:

John 4:25-26 (KJV): 25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. 26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he.

John 8:24 (KJV): I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 8:28 (KJV): Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.

Are correct~ the context said that they are correctly translated~so does the context of John 8:56-58 proves I AM is correctly translated.

I'll come back and prove thsi to be so the Lord willing. RB