Which person in the Trinity is the Judge?

[Binyawmene]

Would you say that this verse is saying not to worship any other gods, except God himself? By worshipping other gods is a sin of idolatry, correct?

She is not going to have a discussion with you which is her normal theme.

The Deity of Christ is part of the application of both Trinity and the Hypostatic Union doctrines. In the Trinity doctrine, the basis for the Deity of Christ is refer to the Son who is distinct from the Father and co-equal with the Father. A Trinitarian identifies the Deity of Christ by making parallels between the Son's godness qualities and the Father who is established as God. While in the Hypostatic Union, the parallel is between both Deity and Humanity. The Greek word ἴσον (isos) or equal is mentioned eight times in the New Testament, and two times in reference to the Son (John 5:18, Philippians 2:6). For example, "only God our Savior" (Jude 25) is in reference to the Father, and "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1) is in reference to the Son. The Son is being on the same value level equally with the Father. Because the Son possesses those godness qualities that the Father alone possesses as being "God" and "Savior." That is how we demonstrate the Divine Nature.

Example: of 6 and 7 from my list

6). The Son receives glory from the Father

1. The Son has the same glory with the Father (Hebrews 1:3, John 17:5).​

2. The Father glorifies the Son (Isaiah 42:8, 2 Peter 1:17).​

3. At the Son's water baptism (Matthew 3:17, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22).​

4. At the Son's transfiguration (Matthew 17:5, Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35).​

5. Before the Son's passion (John 8:54, 12:23, 27-30, 13:31-32, 17:1, 5, 24, Acts 3:13).​

6. The Father and the Son shares glory (John 11:4, 17:10, Revelations 5:11-13).​

7). The Son is worshiped

1. Worshiped God only (Luke 4:5-8, Deuteronomy 6:13-15).​

2. The Son is worshiped by three wise men (Matthew 2:2, 11).​

3. The Son is worshiped by Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (Matthew 28:9).​

4. The Son is worshiped by the disciples (Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:17, Luke 24:52).​

5. The Son is worshiped by all angels (Hebrews 1:6, Revelations 5:11-12).​

6. The Son is worshiped by every creature (Philippians 2:10-11, Revelations 5:13).​

​

Trinity framework:
- To worship and glorify the Father is to worship and glorify the Son and the Holy Spirit.
- To worship and glorify the Son is to worship and glorify the Father and the Holy Spirit.
- To worship and glorify the Holy Spirit is to worship and glorify the Father and the Son.

 

[Ladodgers6]

I pretty much did, and you agreed with me. The belief in the Trinity is not the cause (or the means), but rather, it is the result of a person who is already regenerated. Unless you hold to some form of easy believeism?

I do not hold a position of easy believism. But I do hold to a Classical Covenantal Redemption.

I have no concerns for John 1:1. But just quoting a Bible verse is a conversation stopper. Asking questions is a way to bring out a discussion. She failed to give an interpretation, so I tried to give a different approach, what is the historical context. She assumed Greek philosophy. And it wasn't so much about Greek philosophy, but who the author is addressing, which is the proto-gnosticism. And how would the 1st. century audience understood the author's original intent. You won't understand the verse unless you have an historical back-ground behind it.

Irenaeus also definitely states that John seeks by the proclamation of the Gospel to remove the error which by Cerinthus had been disseminated among men. This heretic taught that Jesus was merely human, the son of Joseph and Mary by natural generation; that he was , however, more just and wise than anyone else; that at baptism the Christ in the form of a dove had descended upon him, but had left him again on the eve of his suffering so that it was not Christ who suffered, died, and rose again but Jesus.

Now Cerinthus lived in the days of the Apostle. Irenaeus relates that there were those who had heard from Polycarp that John, the beloved Apostle, going to bath at Ephesus, and perceiving Cerinthus within, rushed out of the bath-house without bathing, exclaiming: "Let us flee, lest even the bath-house fall down because Cerinthus, the enemy of the truth, is within" (Against heresies III, xi, 1).

It is entirely probable that the Apostle in writing the Gospel had the error of Cerinthus in mind. Thus we can explain why he places such emphasis on the fact Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that this Christ did not merely hover above Jesus without having ever entered into actual and abiding union with him, but actually assumed the human nature and never laid it aside again. Granted, however, that what Irenaeus states as the aim of the fourth Gospel is true, the fact must still be stressed that also this aim was subsidiary in character: the negative purpose (to combat the errors of Cerinthus) was subordinate to the positive, stated so beautifully in 20:30-31.
​

The Purpose of This Book​

30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.​

 

[Ladodgers6]

that is your imaginary god.

All your redundant claims are meaningless without Scriptural support.

This is all you can reply to?

 

[Ladodgers6]

Your triune god worshipping is idolatry.

Thank you, for clarifying your position. So, question why did the Israelites (Jews) worship Jesus?

There is divine worship offered to Jesus. Since only God is to be worshipped (Ex. 20:3), it follows that for Jesus to accept worship would be blasphemy and prove that he wasn't even a prophet or good person if he was not God. For the Scriptures to anywhere command worship toward Jesus---if he was not God---would prove taht they are not God's own word.

that all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him (Jn. 5:23);

Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him (Jn. 12:41);

Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” (Jn. 20:28)

And when they saw him they worshiped him (Mat. 28:17);

so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father (Phi. 2:10-11);

And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him” (Heb. 1:6);

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!” And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped (Rev. 5:12-14).

 

[Ladodgers6]

She is not going to have a discussion with you which is her normal theme.

The Deity of Christ is part of the application of both Trinity and the Hypostatic Union doctrines. In the Trinity doctrine, the basis for the Deity of Christ is refer to the Son who is distinct from the Father and co-equal with the Father. A Trinitarian identifies the Deity of Christ by making parallels between the Son's godness qualities and the Father who is established as God. While in the Hypostatic Union, the parallel is between both Deity and Humanity. The Greek word ἴσον (isos) or equal is mentioned eight times in the New Testament, and two times in reference to the Son (John 5:18, Philippians 2:6). For example, "only God our Savior" (Jude 25) is in reference to the Father, and "our God and Savior Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1:1) is in reference to the Son. The Son is being on the same value level equally with the Father. Because the Son possesses those godness qualities that the Father alone possesses as being "God" and "Savior." That is how we demonstrate the Divine Nature.

Example: of 6 and 7 from my list

6). The Son receives glory from the Father

1. The Son has the same glory with the Father (Hebrews 1:3, John 17:5).​

2. The Father glorifies the Son (Isaiah 42:8, 2 Peter 1:17).​

3. At the Son's water baptism (Matthew 3:17, Mark 1:11, Luke 3:22).​

4. At the Son's transfiguration (Matthew 17:5, Mark 9:7, Luke 9:35).​

5. Before the Son's passion (John 8:54, 12:23, 27-30, 13:31-32, 17:1, 5, 24, Acts 3:13).​

6. The Father and the Son shares glory (John 11:4, 17:10, Revelations 5:11-13).​

7). The Son is worshiped

1. Worshiped God only (Luke 4:5-8, Deuteronomy 6:13-15).​

2. The Son is worshiped by three wise men (Matthew 2:2, 11).​

3. The Son is worshiped by Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (Matthew 28:9).​

4. The Son is worshiped by the disciples (Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:17, Luke 24:52).​

5. The Son is worshiped by all angels (Hebrews 1:6, Revelations 5:11-12).​

6. The Son is worshiped by every creature (Philippians 2:10-11, Revelations 5:13).​

​

Trinity framework:
- To worship and glorify the Father is to worship and glorify the Son and the Holy Spirit.
- To worship and glorify the Son is to worship and glorify the Father and the Holy Spirit.
- To worship and glorify the Holy Spirit is to worship and glorify the Father and the Son.

They seek not the truth, instead settle for what tickles their ears.

 

[Binyawmene]

It is entirely probable that the Apostle in writing the Gospel had the error of Cerinthus in mind.
​

The Purpose of This Book​

30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.​

I'm not familiar with Cerinthus. If my memory serves me correctly, then he was making a distinction between "Jesus" and "Christ." Almost like he was claiming two peoples. But I will say that Apostle John had concerns about proto-Gnosticism. That was the early forms of heresy in Christianity, which denotes the formal denial of a core doctrine of the Christian faith. Like Ebionitism and their Christology. This heresy was around 107 AD they believe that Jesus Christ is fully man but denied he has a spiritual Divine Nature. While the gnostics held to Docetist Christology. This heresy came around 70 AD. They believe that Jesus Christ is fully God but denied he has a physical human nature but only an illusion. Even the letter of 1 John was probably written around 95 AD in Ephesus. John addressed the denial of the human nature in 1 John 4:1-3, but why didn't he addressed that he wasn't fully God? Because John believes Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man. And you have Polycarp that was born around 69 AD and a disciple of Apostle John and Ignatius was born around 108 AD was a disciple and friend of Polycarp.

Docetism was probably derived from first century Christianity.
1 John 2:18-19 Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

Jesus Christ coming in the flesh is physical and not illusion.
1 John 1:1-2 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked at and our hands have touched-this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.

Confessing God the Son is Jesus Christ "in the flesh" is from God.
1 John 4:1-3 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

Docetism is kinda a mixture of both ancient Greek Mythology concepts and Biblical Theophany/Christophany. The idea is rooted that all physical matter is evil, and God is good. And God will not assume anything evil. So all appearances or manifestations was non-physical. For instance, Docetism taught that Jesus Christ, being fully God and the physical fleshly body was only an illusion, that God, "to seem, to appeared in human form" or ""apparition and phantom". And Christ's crucifixion was 'only seemed' to have a physical body (or "God eats, God slept, God suffered, and God died"), but the underlying of all this illusion was God who is incorporeal, spiritual, and cannot physically die because all physical matter is evil. So in reality, what they saw, heard, and touched was only phantasm.

 

[grace2]

Thank you, for clarifying your position. So, question why did the Israelites (Jews) worship Jesus?

Scriptural support?

 

[Ladodgers6]

Scriptural support?

Exodus 15:1Then Moses and the people of Israel sang this song to the LORD, saying,

“I will sing to the LORD, for he has triumphed gloriously;
the horse and his rider he has thrown into the sea.
2 The LORD is my strength and my song,
and he has become my salvation;
this is my God, and I will praise him,
my father’s God, and I will exalt him.
3 The LORD is a man of war;
the LORD is his name.


The Great Commission​

Matt. 28:16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”
​

The Supremacy of God’s Son​

1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.​

5 For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son,
today I have begotten you”?
Or again,
“I will be to him a father,
and he shall be to me a son”?
6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”​

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!” And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!” And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped (Rev. 5:12-14).

Also note that God doesn't share his glory with anyone.​

8 I am the LORD; that is my name;
my glory I give to no other,
nor my praise to carved idols.
​

So please notice that the Lamb receives blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever! Is this enough scripture for you?​

 

[Ladodgers6]

You quote all the scripture and still cannot justify against Jesus' word of we know them by their fruit.

You are not producing godly fruit.

So all your quoting is meaningless.

You can judge me all you want, that's fine by me. You asked for Scripture that stated Jesus was and is worshipped; and showed you Almighty God who freed his people from the bondage of Pharaoh, and defeats Pharaoh by casting him and his Army into the Red Sea. Jude verse 5 says that was Jesus who saved the Israelites out of Egypt.

I consider everything as dung, that I may gain Christ and him crucified. Word of advice, before you starting judging others look in the mirror first. You have a pole in your eye.​

 

[grace2]

You can judge me all you want, that's fine by me.​

I will judge you the way you judge me.

 

[Mr GLee]

The Father is a distinct person, the Son is a distinct person, as the Holy Spirit Son is a distinct person, all the same one Being (spirit), God.

The Holy Spirit of the Father works in the Son of man, Jesus. . to both (the key) will and empower the Son of man Jesus to do it to the glory of God the unseen Holy Father . Jesus did the will of the Holy Father without murmuring

The original dynamic dual

Philippians 2: 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

 

[Eleanor]

You failed to address my questions.

1. What is the interpretation for John 1:1,14?
2. What is the historical back-ground behind those two verses?
3. How would the 1st. century audiences understood those two verses?
4. What was the author's original intent?

I don't want someone play captain hero to save you from your failure. I want you to answer the questions. But
I know you can't, or you would have done so already.

Nice try. . .

You're gonna' have to say "pretty please."

 

[Eleanor]

The Holy Spirit of the Father works in the Son of man, Jesus

Agreed. . .as the Holy Spirit works in all those whom he re-births (Jn 3:3-5).

 

[Ladodgers6]

I will judge you the way you judge me.

Okay, please provide a post where I judged you.

 

[Ladodgers6]

I am not keeping track of your judging posts.

there are too many.

It is not just you, it is many of your trin friends.

If I point it out it will be deleted.

Why do you even ask meaningless questions?

Now you are bearing false witness. Since it seems you will not address any of my replies; the scriptural proofs for Christ; God incarnate. Let's dispense this conversation. Thanks.

 

[Alive]

I will not take the bait to trap myself in your unjust spreading.

It is your words against mine.

Jesus is the Judge.

On a Christian forum, such as this, what we aspire to do is look to scripture to inform our words as we all learn and grow in the Truth. Jesus said, “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life”.
As Jesus Christ is the chief subject of and in scripture, we seek to learn of Him.

 

[Binyawmene]

Nice try. . .

You're gonna' have to say "pretty please."

I will give you the historical perspective and you can argue against it with your view of the Logos.

What is the historical back-ground behind John 1:1?

From the Christian history perspective, apostle John is refuting proto-Gnosticism, and the antichrist behind John's writings wasn't just Cerinthus but many antichrists (1 John 2:18, 2 John 1:7) like followers of Docetism, the other many forms of Gnosticism. Some historians suggest that Cerinthus arrived on the scene after the apostles was martyred and the only apostle that was still alive was John. Which makes him to be John's opponent so to speak. Others suggest that apostle Paul encountered forms of Gnosticism, after all, he also taught the incarnate Son too. Now Cerinthus was an educated Jewish man from Egypt and was influenced by Philo of Alexandria. He travels to Asia Minor (or modern-day Turkey) and had encounters with Christians. He held to the position that there was an "an intermediary divine being" or a demiurge (fashioner) that emanated from God, and that demiurge created all things from pre-existing eternal stuff who is identified as the Word (Logos). This position is what makes him be one of the fathers of early stages of proto-Gnosticism.

How would the 1st. century audiences understood John 1:1, 14?

They would have understood that apostle John is refuting the concept of proto-Gnosticism. So John pinpoint the term Logos and the audiences was aware of that terminology is rooted from Philo's philosophy which is a derivative from Greek philosophy. The idea was to set up the Logos as an actual real eternal person with the Father. Not so much in the sense of a "an intermediary divine being" or a demiurge (fashioner) which was the appeal to Gnostics, but rather, a person who has the same quality, nature, or the essence with the Father and created all things. That means the Word was not a "thought," "plan," "name." or "something spoken" etc. Which is what lots of person do when they start playing around with the term Logos. Because of their denial of the eternal pre-existing Word that declares DEITY.

That was the appeal, and then, Word theme continues into John 1:14. This was a direct refutation for both Docetism and Possessionist. Cerinthus claimed to have angelic revelations, which is from a spirit, the antichrist spirit (1 John 1:3). He held to the position of Possessionist Christology which is basically one of the many forms of Adoptionism. It's a denial that Jesus is the Christ and by the concept of two separate beings (1 John 2:22). This position teaches that Jesus was a biological son of both Joseph and Mary. There was no miracle virgin birth by the incarnate Word. But a separation between Jesus (a man) and Christ (demiurge). So at Jesus water baptism, it was Christ who descended upon him in the form of a dove, and literally possessed Jesus and now he has supernatural powers. That when he was adopted as the Son of God. And Christ would separate and leave him when he was on the cross, and there was no resurrection. Jesus will only be resurrected from the dead on the last day when all people are resurrected for judgement.

While Docetism Christology seem to fad-out after apostle John refuted it. But the Possessionist Christology has continued and found its way into Ebionitism and different forms of it known as Adoptionism in the 2nd. century. And many false prophets started to rise up in the 2nd. century too, like the Montanism, etc. The spirit of the antichrist comes in many forms, even still active to this very day like the many cults of Unitarianism, etc.

1 John 1-3 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.​

 

[Eleanor]

I will give you the historical perspective and you can argue against it with your view of Logos.

I argue regarding Scripture.

What is the historical back-ground behind John 1:1?

From the Christian history perspective, apostle John is refuting proto-Gnosticism, and
the antichrist behind John's writings wasn't just Cerinthus but many antichrists (1 John 2:18, 2 John 1:7)

The antichrists (1 Jn 2:18) to whom John was referring are described as:
1) denying the incarnation (1 Jn 4:2 Jn 7),
2) denying that Jesus is the divine Christ (1 Jn 2:22),
3) denying the Father (1 Jn 2:22),
4) liars (1 Jn 2:22),
5) deceivers (2 Jn 7),
6) many (1 Jn 2:18),
7) left the church because they had nothing in common with believers (1 Jn 2:19).
They were the early Gnostics.

like followers of Docetism, the other many forms of Gnosticism. Some historians suggest that Cerinthus arrived on the scene after the apostles was martyred and the only apostle that was still alive was John. Which makes him to be John's opponent so to speak. Others suggest that apostle Paul encountered forms Gnosticism, after all, he also taught the incarnate Son too. Now Cerinthus was an educated Jewish man from Egypt and was influenced by Philo of Alexandria. He travels to Asia Minor (or modern-day Turkey) and had encounters with Christians. He held to the position that there was an "an intermediary divine being" or a demiurge (fashioner) that emanated from God, and that demiurge created all things from pre-existing eternal stuff who is identified as the Word (Logos). This position is what makes him be one of the fathers of early stages of proto-Gnosticism.

How would the 1st. century audiences understood John 1:1, 14?
They would have understood that apostle John is refuting the concept of proto-Gnosticism. So John pinpoint the term Logos and the audiences was aware of that terminology is rooted from Philo's philosophy which is a derivative from Greek philosophy. The idea was to set up the Logos as an actual real eternal person with the Father. Not so much in the sense of a "an intermediary divine being" or a demiurge (fashioner) which was the appeal to Gnostics, but rather, a person who has the same quality, nature, or the essence with the Father and created all things. That means the Word was not a "thought," "plan," "name." or "something spoken" etc.

As it also was not such in Greek philosophy, where it was the First Cause, the Great Intelligence and Reason behind the universe.

Which is what lots of person do when they start playing around with the term Logos. Because of their denial of the eternal pre-existing Word that declares DEITY.

Unless he was referring to the logos of Greek philosophy which was the First Cause, the Great Intelligence and Reason behind the universe, and declaring that the recently reviled and crucified man, Jesus of Nazareth, is the eternal logos, source of all wisdom and power (Jn 1:1), who became flesh (Jn 1:14) to reveal God to us.

That was the appeal, and then, Word theme continues into John 1:14.

Continues as First Cause and Great Intelligence and Reason, God (the Son). . .

This was a direct refutation for both Docetism and Possessionist. Cerinthus claimed to have angelic revelations, which is from a spirit, the antichrist spirit (1 John 1:3). He held to the position of Possessionist Christology which is basically one of the many forms of Adoptionism. It's a denial that Jesus is the Christ and not separate beings (1 John 2:22). This position teaches that Jesus was a biological son of both Joseph and Mary. There was no miracle virgin birth by the incarnate Word. But a separation between Jesus (a man) and Christ (demiurge).

. . .who became flesh (Jn 1:14) to reveal God to us.

So at Jesus water baptism, it was Christ who descended upon him in the form of a dove, and literally possessed Jesus and now he has supernatural powers. That when he was adopted as the Son of God. And Christ would separate and leave him when he was on the cross, and there was no resurrection. Jesus will only be resurrected from the dead on the last day when all people are resurrected for judgement.

While Docetism Christology seem to fad-out after apostle John refuted it. But the Possessionist Christology has continued and found its way into Ebionitism and different forms of it known as Adoptionism in the 2nd. century. And many false prophets started to rise up in the 2nd. century too, like the Montanism, etc. The spirit of the antichrist comes in many forms, even still active to this very day like the many cults of Unitarianism, etc.

1 John 1-3 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.​

 

[Binyawmene]

I argue regarding Scripture.

The antichrists (1 Jn 2:18) to whom John was referring are described as:
1) denying the incarnation (1 Jn 4:2 Jn 7),
2) denying that Jesus is the divine Christ (1 Jn 2:22),
3) denying the Father (1 Jn 2:22),
4) liars (1 Jn 2:22),
5) deceivers (2 Jn 7),
6) many (1 Jn 2:18),
7) left the church because they had nothing in common with believers (1 Jn 2:19).
They were the early Gnostics.

Amen. Just making sure we are on the same page. You agree that historically that John is refuting proto-gnostics, like heretical views of Docetism and Possessionist Christologies?

As it also was not such in Greek philosophy, where it was the First Cause, the Great Intelligence and Reason behind the universe.

Unless he was referring to the logos of Greek philosophy which was the First Cause, the Great Intelligence and Reason behind the universe, and declaring that the recently reviled and crucified man, Jesus of Nazareth, is the eternal logos, source of all wisdom and power (Jn 1:1), who became flesh (Jn 1:14) to reveal God to us.

Continues as First Cause and Great Intelligence and Reason, God (the Son). . .

. . .who became flesh (Jn 1:14) to reveal God to us.

What do you mean by "the Great Intelligence and Reason behind the universe?" That sounds like New Age philosophies. Maybe you can elaborate and articulate what you mean. This way I don't misrepresent your version of the Logos.

 

[Eleanor]

Amen. Just making sure we are on the same page. You agree that historically that John is refuting proto-gnostics, like heretical views of Docetism and Possessionist Christologies?

What do you mean by "the Great Intelligence and Reason behind the universe?" That sounds like New Age philosophies. Maybe you can elaborate and articulate what you mean. This way I don't misrepresent your version of the Logos.

It was their notion. . .but I would understand it as it being evident that the origin of the Universe was not a random event, but had a rational intelligent First Cause.