Will the Jews build a Third Temple?

[EarlyActs]

Greetings again EarlyActs,


We have discussed this previously. The Throne of David is to be located at Jerusalem, not heaven. Jesus was invited to sit at the right hand of the One God, Yahweh, God the Father in God the Father's Throne:
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

Acts 2:29–36 (KJV): 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Jeremiah 3:17 (KJV): At that time they shall call Jerusalem the throne of the LORD; and all the nations shall be gathered unto it, to the name of the LORD, to Jerusalem: neither shall they walk any more after the imagination of their evil heart.

Micah 4:1–8 (KJV): 1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. 2 And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. 4 But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of the LORD of hosts hath spoken it. 5 For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever. 6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; 7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. 8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Kind regards
Trevor

There is no way to get your belief from the official apostle interp in Acts 2 or Rom 1 or Eph 1 or Phil 2.

 

[EarlyActs]

Greetings Josheb and Greetings again EarlyActs,

I understand the "until" of Psalm 110:1 as the beginning of the 1000 years, at the start of the process of subduing his enemies:

Acts 2:34–36 (KJV): 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

The same word "Until" is used by Peter in his speech, and this is clearly speaking about the start of the Kingdom of God:
Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
I have quoted some of these holy prophets and their message is very clear.


It is quite evident that Peter got Psalm 110:1 right.

Kind regards
Trevor

Subduing yes but that means the reign is now, which even Ps 145 and Dan 2 knew. It is an imperative reign; it is what is supposed to happen now, on the threat that on the last day the ruthless subduing will hit. That’s why there is neither a millennium nor any Judaic part to 2Peter 3’s description.

 

[EarlyActs]

Greetings Josheb and Greetings again EarlyActs,

I understand the "until" of Psalm 110:1 as the beginning of the 1000 years, at the start of the process of subduing his enemies:

Acts 2:34–36 (KJV): 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

The same word "Until" is used by Peter in his speech, and this is clearly speaking about the start of the Kingdom of God:
Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
I have quoted some of these holy prophets and their message is very clear.


It is quite evident that Peter got Psalm 110:1 right.

Kind regards
Trevor

By the way the 2 times are the same ; that’s why he’s talking about it. And there are several ways he sent Jesus to do so.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Josheb and EarlyActs,

Why do you do that?

It's not what Acts 2 actually states. The book of Revelation makes it very clear Jesus was enthroned long before the 1000 years began. Jesus is enthroned in Revelation 1, not Revelation 20! In chapter 3 of Revelation Jesus is said to sit on his Father's throne, the throne of God Himsel

But Jesus in Revelation 3 speaks of another Throne, distinct from His Father's Throne. This separate Throne will be the Throne of David during the 1000 years. Jesus does not invite the faithful to share His Father's Throne, but his own Throne, the Throne of David during the 1000 year Kingdom.
Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
This not only agrees with Psalm 110:1, this is an expansion and commentary by Jesus on Psalm 110:1.

There are many OT prophecies that teach the subjugation of the nations when Jesus returns, and the two prophecies Isaiah 2:1-4 and Zechariah 14 are very clear and are like bookends of many other similar prophecies. One such prophecy speaks of judgement on the nations at the time of the resurrection of the faithful.
Isaiah 26:9–11,19-21 (KJV): 9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. 10 Let favour be shewed to the wicked, yet will he not learn righteousness: in the land of uprightness will he deal unjustly, and will not behold the majesty of the LORD. 11 LORD, when thy hand is lifted up, they will not see: but they shall see, and be ashamed for their envy at the people; yea, the fire of thine enemies shall devour them.
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. 20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain.

Remind me again of your eschatological bend so I have context for understanding your posts. If my memory serves me correctly, Christadelphians are premillennial. Is that correct for you, personally? Is your understanding of Psalm 110:1 being associated with Rev. 20's thousand years a product of your Christadelphian premillennialism?

Yes, both my own upbringing and present environment, but also my own personal study and meditation on the Word. John Thomas the major pioneer of our fellowship was a stromg advocate of the Millennium and the return of the Jews to the Holy Land and their conversion at the return of Jesus.

Another prophecy that clearly teaches the events leading up to the Millennium is Ezekiel 38, and John Thomas expounded Ezekiel 38 in his book Elpis Israel (The Hope of Israel) page 441, 1850:
There is, then, a partial and primary restoration of Jews before the manifestation, which is to serve as the nucleus, or basis, of future operations in the restoration of the rest of the tribes after he has appeared in the kingdom. The pre-adventual colonization of Palestine will be on purely political principles; and the Jewish colonists will return in unbelief of the Messiahship of Jesus, and of the truth as it is in him. They will emigrate thither as agriculturists and traders, in the hope of ultimately establishing their commonwealth, but more immediately of getting rich in silver and gold by commerce with India, and in cattle and goods by their industry at home under the efficient protection of the British power. And this their expectation will not be deceived; for, before Gogue invades their country, it is described by the prophet, as “a land of unwalled villages, whose inhabitants are at rest, and dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates; and possessed of silver and gold, cattle and goods, dwelling in the midst of the land” Ezekiel 38:11-13. Now any person acquainted with the present insecure condition of Palestine under the Ottoman dominion must be satisfied from the testimony, that some other power friendly to Israel must then have become paramount over the land, which is able to guarantee protection to them, and to put the surrounding tribes in fear.* This is all that is needed, namely, security for life and property, and Palestine would be as eligible for Jewish emigration as the United States have proved for the Gentiles.
But to what part of the world shall we look for a power whose interests will make it willing, as it is able, to plant the ensign of civilization upon the mountains of Israel? The reader will, doubtless, anticipate my reply from what has gone before. I know not whether the men, who at present contrive the foreign policy of Britain, entertain the idea of assuming the sovereignty of the Holy Land, and of promoting its colonization by the Jews; their present intentions, however, are of no importance one way or the other, because they will be compelled, by events soon to happen, to do what, under existing circumstances, heaven and earth combined could not move them to attempt. The present decisions of “statesmen” are destitute of stability. A shooting star in the political firmament is sufficient to disturb all the forces of their system; and to stultify all the theories of their political astronomy. The finger of God has indicated a course to be pursued by Britain which cannot be evaded, and which her counsellors will not only be willing, but eager, to adopt when the crisis comes upon them.

There is no way to get your belief from the official apostle interp in Acts 2 or Rom 1 or Eph 1 or Phil 2.

Refer above and my earlier Posts.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[TMSO]

Greetings Josheb and Greetings again EarlyActs,

I understand the "until" of Psalm 110:1 as the beginning of the 1000 years, at the start of the process of subduing his enemies:

Acts 2:34–36 (KJV): 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

The same word "Until" is used by Peter in his speech, and this is clearly speaking about the start of the Kingdom of God:
Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
I have quoted some of these holy prophets and their message is very clear.


It is quite evident that Peter got Psalm 110:1 right.

Kind regards
Trevor

I don't see it as the start of the process of subduing His enemies, but subdues His enemies, and the final eradication is after the 1000 years. (When death and hades are finally defeated, holding power over no one. I do not speak of the torment that awaits those whose name is not in the book of life.) His everlasting kingdom as Messiah begins when His enemies are made His footstool, and never ends. It is fully established with the defeat of death and hades at the end of the 1000 years.

In Daniel, the Son of Man is introduced in this way.
"

Vision of the Ancient of Days​

9 “I watched till thrones were [d]put in place,
And the Ancient of Days was seated;
His garment was white as snow,
And the hair of His head was like pure wool.
His throne was a fiery flame,
Its wheels a burning fire;
10 A fiery stream issued
And came forth from before Him.
A thousand thousands ministered to Him;
Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him.
The [e]court was seated,
And the books were opened.

11 “I watched then because of the sound of the [f]pompous words which the horn was speaking; I watched till the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given to the burning flame. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. [This is the Antichrist whose body is destroyed and given to the burning flame in Revelation 19, before the start of the 1000 years]

13 “I was watching in the night visions,
And behold, One like the Son of Man,
Coming with the clouds of heaven!
He came to the Ancient of Days,
And they brought Him near before Him.
14 Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom,
That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion,
Which shall not pass away,
And His kingdom the one
Which shall not be destroyed."

His kingdom/dominion comes after the Great Tribulation, before the 1000 years, and is fully established after the 1000 years. The millennium marks the beginning of the Messiah's kingdom. It only grows from there into the New Heavens and New Earth. It does not stop and start again. Paul says that the Son returns the Kingdom to the Father after the defeat of the final enemy, death. That occurs at the end of the 1000 years. Why? That God may be all in all. I Corinthians 15 I believe.

 

[TMSO]

Hi thanks for the reply. .I would offer. .

Visions as dreams (not literally what the eyes see) given in parables must be rightly divided.2 Corinthian 4:18 the mixing formula. the gospel rest

Prophecy is NOT parables. Parables are allegory, prophecies use metaphor, simile and figurative speech to speak to literal events. They do not use allegory. The problem with writing an allegory is that, to someone who does not know, it can be interpretted MANY different ways, and they are right. Metaphor, simile and figurative speech have one proper interpretation. There may be many interpretations made, but there is only one right interpretation. Parables are allegories, and there are different ways to understand it. Hence, many people can be/are way off track when talking about parables, and people just accept it. After all, it is a parable, an allegorical story speaking to a spiritual truth. Hence you have the parable of the prodigal son. It is a story. You have the prophecy of the 70 weeks. It isn't a story, it is a decree. You have Nebuchadnezzar's statue. It isn't a story, it is a description (rather literal) of how Nebuchadnezzar and mankind view the greatness of Nebuchadnezzar and the empires that follow. The head is gold, and Nebuchandezzar is the head, not babylon. However, he is the head of babylon, so it is included. The arms and chest is the medes and persians. Two people groups, heavily into silver (hmmm...), and two arms. One arm for each group. The Medes and the Persians. The torso of bronze. The Greek Empire with Alexander...heavy into brass and other such things. Then Rome is the two legs and feet, and there were two parts to the Roman Empire. The Western and Eastern parts. The Roman Empire did not completely end until 1453AD. That end was either circumstance, or Jesus return as the rock not cut by human hands, crushing all the empires. However, there are still the two feet with ten toes, iron mixed with clay. A revived Roman Empire... after 1453AD.

Remember without parables the signified understanding Christ the invisible head as eternal God. . our the husband spoke not

Many metaphors used in the parable. it gives us its unseen eternal understanding hid from those who have no faith as it is written, that could please our invisible head Christ

Without parables the signified spiritual understanding of Christ the Holy Spirit spoke not

Note . . .(parentheses) by offering)

.Daniel 7:1- 14 Daniel’s Dream About Four Animals ( four universal south east west and north) During the first year that Belshazzar was king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream. He saw these visions while he was lying on his bed, and he wrote what he had dreamed. Daniel said, “I saw my vision at night. In the vision the wind was blowing from all four directions. These winds made the sea (the judgement of Christ) rough. I saw four big animals (all the kingdoms of these world under the god of this world) and each one was different from the others.

You are missing the point because this prophecy is actually speaking of Nebuchadnezzar's golden statue, however it isn't from the view of Nebuchadnezzar and mankind, but from God's point of view. He doesn't see a beautiful statue, but four beastly creatures. Daniel sees four beast that appear as certain animals, but they are still beasts/monsters.

These four animals came up out of the sea.(The judgment seat of Christ) “The first animal looked like a lion, but it had wings like an eagle. As I watched, its wings were torn off. ( like the legs of the serpent no longer walk with out in agreement to Christ) It was helped up from the ground, (earthly inspired for the devil) and it stood up on two feet like a human.(Like a human not human) Then it was given a human mind.(worldly understanding.)

No. This is Nebuchadnezzar, who elevated himself to god status, and God made Him a beast, until He understood His place, and humbled himself to simple human status. This is the head of gold.

“Then I saw another animal there in front of me that looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three (denotes the end of a matter) ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, ‘Get up and eat all the meat you want!’(flesh of saints )

This is the Medes and the Persians. The Persians were more powerful than the Medes, so it was raised up on one of its sides. They just happened to destroy three nations (three ribs). It was told to go ahead and attack others. This empire was larger than Nebuchadnezzar's empire, and more powerful.

“After that I noticed another animal in front of me. It looked like a leopard, but it had four wings on its back. (false prophet) This animal had four heads.( universal) It was given authority to rule. (law of faith let there be and it was God alone good.)

This is the Greek Empire headed by Alexander the Great. The leopard with four wings on its back speaks to the speed at which this empire spread. Alexander conquered and very quickly established his empire. It was also more vast and powerful than that which was before. What about the four heads? Alexander the Great did not live long, and the empire was divided between his four generals.

“After that, in my vision at night, I looked, and there in front of me was a fourth animal (to represent al the kingdom of this dying world) . It looked very cruel and terrifying. It looked very strong, with large iron teeth. (Satan the father of lies as a lion seeking to devour believers) This animal crushed and ate its victims (the unbelieving world) and walked given( understanding )on whatever was left of them. This fourth animal was different from all the animals I saw before it. This animal had ten horns.( all the kingdoms of the world ) “

This is Rome. Large iron teeth. It is also not described as any particular beast/monster/animal because it was possibly an amalgamation of the others. He just couldn't describe what he saw. So, due to all the features, Daniel says it looked cruel and terrifying. Rome crushed the ancient world. And another way to know that this is talking about Nebuchadnezzar's statue from how God sees it, and not how Nebuchadnezzar and mankind see it is... ten horns = ten toes. This beast is a revival of the Roman Empire. The final empire in horrifying form.

This is not a parable. It is not story. It is a statement.

 

[Josheb]

Greetings again Josheb and EarlyActs,

But Jesus in Revelation 3 speaks of another Throne, distinct from His Father's Throne.

No, it does not. Jesus' throne and God's throne are the same throne, and as I have often pointed out to you, the trhrone of Christ is the resurrection and NOT a physical chair.

Acts 2:29-35
Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says, “‘The Lord said to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool.”’

When God oathed a throne to David and his descendants God was speaking of the resurrection of the Christ, that his body would not see decay. That is the definition of the throne scripture itself provides. Up until that point it would have been normal, ordinary and completely understandable to think of the word "throne" as a chair, a physical chair and when sat upon by a monarch then it is a chair of power and authority. The moment scripture defines the throne as something other than a physical chair it is necessarily incumbent upon us to bow our understanding to what is stated.

The throne is not a chair.

Who knew?

God knew. And God, in His grace, explained what He meant. Do not ignore it. Jesus' throne is the resurrection and after the resurrection he ascended into heaven where he now sits on his Father's throne. His Father has told him, "Sit at my right hand until I defeat all your enemies." That is the prophecy to which Peter appealed when he revealed the true nature of the throne!!! Psalm 110 is being fulfilled. The Lord is enthroned on the LORD's throne, at the right hand of the LORD and the Lord will remain there until the LORD has defeated the Lord's enemies (not before then).

Premillennialism is, therefore, wrong. I know that's a big blow to premillennialists but that is what scripture teaches. Premillennialists read the rest of Psalm 110 to say Jesus is on earth when he extends his scepter but that happens in direct contradiction to the first verse, in glaring contradiction to the fact the first verse tells us in explicit, unequivocal terms Jesus remains seated there until the LORD, the LORD and not the Lord, defeats the Lords' enemies. Premillennialists then take that misguided reading of Psalm 110 and apply the exact same mistreatment of scripture to Revelation 3 to say there are two thrones.

Two thrones is self-contradictory!

If ANY thought were put into that premise its self-contradictory nature would be understood. If there is only one rule, or only one Ruler, then that Ruler's throne is ALWAYS superior to any and all other thrones. That is the whole point of scripture's report Jesus is seated on his Father's throne! Jesus has the throne above all others. There is no other throne. There is definitely no other throne that would even remotely, to any degree, compare with power, authority, sovereignty, domain, etc. to the throne on which Jesus NOW sits. Jesus has defeated death and is NOW King of all kings, Lord over all other lords, and his rule is far above ALL other rule.

To say otherwise is to teach a different Christology.

And that has always been another problem with modern futurist premillennialism (Historicism does not share that problem with its modern alternative).


Therefore, everything built on the premise of two thrones is equally fallacious, equally irrational, equally unscriptural. You will, therefore, also understand why I don't address the rest of Post 244. The moment two thrones were asserted the post failed both scripturally and logically. I will, therefore, encourage and exhort you to be more critical of your sources, your teachers and the theologians who teach a two-thrones eschatology, a two-thrones Christology, a two-thrones doctrine that ignores the stated throne of Acts 2:31.

I also encourage you re-read the entire Bible! Seriously. If you read the Bible with Acts 2:31 in mind whenever God speaks of the throne, then an enormously vast understanding of what God has always been telling His people will avail itself. Reading the Old Testament without the New Testament in mind is uninformed. Reading all the OT mentions of "throne" thinking only of a physical chair, or a seat of temporal power is uninformed and short-sighted. Discerning which mentions of "throne" pertain to the resurrection is shockingly eye-opening.

Give it a try. Decide for yourself.

 

[Mr GLee]

Prophecy is NOT parables. Parables are allegory, prophecies use metaphor, simile and figurative speech to speak to literal events. They do not use allegory. The problem with writing an allegory is that, to someone who does not know, it can be interpretted MANY different ways, and they are right. Metaphor, simile and figurative speech have one proper interpretation. There may be many interpretations made, but there is only one right interpretation. Parables are allegories, and there are different ways to understand it. Hence, many people can be/are way off track when talking about parables, and people just accept it. After all, it is a parable, an allegorical story speaking to a spiritual truth. Hence you have the parable of the prodigal son. It is a story. You have the prophecy of the 70 weeks. It isn't a story, it is a decree. You have Nebuchadnezzar's statue. It isn't a story, it is a description (rather literal) of how Nebuchadnezzar and mankind view the greatness of Nebuchadnezzar and the empires that follow. The head is gold, and Nebuchandezzar is the head, not babylon. However, he is the head of babylon, so it is included. The arms and chest is the medes and persians. Two people groups, heavily into silver (hmmm...), and two arms. One arm for each group. The Medes and the Persians. The torso of bronze. The Greek Empire with Alexander...heavy into brass and other such things. Then Rome is the two legs and feet, and there were two parts to the Roman Empire. The Western and Eastern parts. The Roman Empire did not completely end until 1453AD. That end was either circumstance, or Jesus return as the rock not cut by human hands, crushing all the empires. However, there are still the two feet with ten toes, iron mixed with clay. A revived Roman Empire... after 1453AD.

You are missing the point because this prophecy is actually speaking of Nebuchadnezzar's golden statue, however it isn't from the view of Nebuchadnezzar and mankind, but from God's point of view. He doesn't see a beautiful statue, but four beastly creatures. Daniel sees four beast that appear as certain animals, but they are still beasts/monsters.

No. This is Nebuchadnezzar, who elevated himself to god status, and God made Him a beast, until He understood His place, and humbled himself to simple human status. This is the head of gold.

This is the Medes and the Persians. The Persians were more powerful than the Medes, so it was raised up on one of its sides. They just happened to destroy three nations (three ribs). It was told to go ahead and attack others. This empire was larger than Nebuchadnezzar's empire, and more powerful.

This is the Greek Empire headed by Alexander the Great. The leopard with four wings on its back speaks to the speed at which this empire spread. Alexander conquered and very quickly established his empire. It was also more vast and powerful than that which was before. What about the four heads? Alexander the Great did not live long, and the empire was divided between his four generals.

This is Rome. Large iron teeth. It is also not described as any particular beast/monster/animal because it was possibly an amalgamation of the others. He just couldn't describe what he saw. So, due to all the features, Daniel says it looked cruel and terrifying. Rome crushed the ancient world. And another way to know that this is talking about Nebuchadnezzar's statue from how God sees it, and not how Nebuchadnezzar and mankind see it is... ten horns = ten toes. This beast is a revival of the Roman Empire. The final empire in horrifying form.

This is not a parable. It is not story. It is a statement.

Hi Thanks for the reply. I would offer. . .still trying to learn. We have the rest of our lives .Not a salvation issue.

Philippians 1:6 inform us If Christ has began the good teaching work in us he will continue till we take our last breath " the gospel"

To include those in the back of the class clowns, slower learners .He can move then up . The last will be first. all receive the same reward eternal life.

It would seem today some of mankind does shy away from parables the signified understanding not seen , even calling them good Disney bed time stories.

It would seem the signs lying wonders false gospel) is on the increase picking up speed It can be seen by the new world alphabet . LGBTQ+ The towel of Babble . . personal out of body experience, the new validator of truth . If it feels good murder them .

I think we know he a God who hides speaks in mysteries (signified tongue) but in many cases some do not understand how we can hear it remains a parable mystery

The word Parable must be defined (as it is written) and shown used in a example the witness of faith .

Without prohecy (parables) the eternal living word Christ spoke not .

Matthew 13:34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Mark 4:11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables

Parables teach us how to walk or understand God not seen .

If interested I can offer a few examples of living faith (the unseen eternal) in action. . . a labor of Christ love that works in sons of God, Christians

 

[Josheb]

Yes, both my own upbringing and present environment, but also my own personal study and meditation on the Word. John Thomas the major pioneer of our fellowship was a stromg advocate of the Millennium and the return of the Jews to the Holy Land and their conversion at the return of Jesus.

No. That is correct only in temporal detail and not in theological truth.

The facts of Christadelphianism (as I believe I have expressed to you before) is that the sect's origin lays in the 19th century Restoration Movement. There's very little actually couched in scripture.

ALL of the Restoration Movement sects shared two basic beliefs. I'm going to repeat that for emphasis, not because I think anything ill of you personally. ALL of the Restoration Movement sects shared two basic beliefs. The first was the belief the Church was corrupt and in need of restoration. Hence the name "'restoration' movement." The second was the belief in Jesus' imminent return. Simply put, the Church is corrupt and in need of restoration and because Jesus is coming back any day now every Christian should get right with God so they do not get killed when Jesus returns. These are the two shared views held by all the restoration movement sects. These sects include, but are not limited to, the Campbellites, the Millerites, the off-shoot Dispensationalism of the Plymouth Brethren, the Seventh Day Adventists (SDA), the Church of Christ (CoC), the Jehovah's Witnesses (JW), the Latter-Day Saints (LDS), and the Christadelphians. Christadelphianism was an English version and Thomas eventually separated himself and his views from the movement. He, paradoxically, formalized his differences when he registered his church in America, calling it "Christadelphian" because church affiliation was required for conscientious objector status. Every single Christadelphian is a part of a movement that occurred in Christianity in the 19th century. Every single Christadelphian is necessarily and inescapably a subscriber to a set of beliefs that were literally invented eighteen centuries after the New Testament.

Every single member of a restoration movement sect is necessarily and inescapably a subscriber to a completely different ecclesiology, too . That includes the Christadelphian. Scripturally speaking, the Church, the ecclesia, is the body of Christ. The body of Christ is NOT dispositionally corrupt. The body of Christ has been washed clean, its members justified by faith, and the righteousness of Christ has been commuted to it individually and corporately. For twenty centuries that has been the uniform orthodox thought, doctrine, and practice in Christianity. The restoration movements came along and ignored the precedents established in the epistolary (the Church has always been a very messy place) and declared the body of Christ corrupt! Each sect then preached their version of what a restored church looked like and proselytized people to join its version. The SDA, for example, taught/teaches a return to the Mosaic code, including the dietary restrictions. That, according to SDAism, is a restoration of the Church. In Dispensationalism it was originally taught pietism was elevated and Christians were taught they should separate from society and have no part on politics or public policy for the sake of purity. Christadelphianism taught the doctrine of the Trinity and the pre-existence of Christ are incorrect and should be discarded. They taught a return to baptism (only) by immersion and other views that were considered by the Christadelphian leaders to be a restoration of the Church.

In other words, each sect had its own view of restoration, its own view of what a restored Church must look like. Each sect was the true sect and all others were to be eschewed. Christadelphianism was a later developing sect in the 1800s and many who shared overlapping views (like the some of the Campbellites and Adventists left Christadelphianism. The end result of this sectarian explosion of views, these "we're-the-only-true-church" theology was counter-productive. Instead of restoring the Church to orthodoxy and unity, the diversity led to increasing fractures and heresy. The explosion of sectarianism and denominationalism that occurred in and following the 19th century made the Reformation look like a sophomoric trial run! Now, to be fair, some of the restoration movement sects still managed to fall within the pale of orthodoxy and some have changed their theologies. The SDA, for example, were never predominantly premillennial so their apocalypticism looked different than that which was espoused by the separated rapturists, for example. Over the last 150-180 years some of the sects have reformed their teachings, recognizing there were very real problems and criticisms were valid. Others became cults.

Eschatologically speaking, Christadelphians believe Jesus will establish a literal kingdom physically here on earth and mortal humans will live with Jesus in this physical monarchy for the thousand years of Revelation 20. When Jesus does so that will be the restoration of the kingdom first established in/with Israel. The whole world will be governed from that kingdom but the physical kingdom itself will be Israel and its restored physical land boundaries. There are many teachings Christadelphinaism that part ways with historical Christianity (like baptism being regenerative) but I have endeavored to stay op-relevant.


Now you feel free to correct anything I just posted. Historically, those are the facts of history. They're not up for debate. Everything just posted can objectively be verified by simply consulting a history book. Theologically speaking, I may have erred in some detail because I'm working from memory (but I can walk over to my library and consult my Christadelphian resources to confirm any dissent).


So Christadelphian is new and different. It is NOT historical Christian thought, doctrine, or practices. The reason this is important is because any and all of the restoration movement sects have had to deal with the logically necessary conclusion of their separated views. Simply put, if what Christadelphians teaches is true and correct then 20 centuries of Christianity has been wrong. The same thing holds true for Dispensationalism. Dispensationalism is so radically different from the entirety of Christian thought, doctrine, and practice that both cannot be simultaneously true and correct. One or the other wise wrong. If historical Christianity is wrong, then there have been no Christians for 20 centuries until John Thomas set things right. John Thomas knew the truth, and everyone else was wrong and remains wrong.

I have already showed you the facts in scripture pertaining to the temple (which is the specified topic of this thread. I have also traded posts with you on the kingdom and monarchy. God never asked for a temple. God openly eschewed an earthly monarchy. The promised throne is the resurrection. Jesus stays seated in heaven until all his enemies are defeated. Jesus is never stated to come to earth in the book of Revelation until chapters 21 and 22. Chapters 19 and 20 NEVER explicitly state Jesus is physically on earth.

John Watson made inferences that are not supported by the plain reading of scripture. He inferred a physical kingdom with Jesus' physical presence here on earth and he did so in neglect of 1 Samuel 8, 2 Samuel 7, Acts 2, and the whole of Revelation.

You, therefore, might consider re-reading your Bible with Posts 247 and 249 in mind. Consider reading more diverse points of view in theology, especially eschatology. I believe I have made some recommendations, starting with basic comparative books where different theologians from different points of view assert their perspective and evaluates each others. Keep in mind Watson 1) gained his views from the Bible and the already existing Christianity and 2) quite literally invented a theology that unavoidably and inextricably says ALL the rest of Christendom is wrong and has been wrong from its inception. If you re-read the Bible with Acts 2:30-31 in mind a whole new and different understanding than Christadelphianism will inescapably emerge.


















(apologies for the length)
.

 

[EarlyActs]

Acts 2-4 doesn't have a bunch of other thrones to deal with. It is a warning to Israel to help in the mission of Christ. It helps to know why they are saying what they are saying.

What is the grammatical reference of "this" in Acts 2:30, when David saw "this"?

If you are expecting an actual kingdom, you should prob reset that instinct. He brought an imperative kingdom: the one that should be. In honor of Him.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Josheb and EarlyActs,

No, it does not. Jesus' throne and God's throne are the same throne, and as I have often pointed out to you, the trhrone of Christ is the resurrection and NOT a physical chair.

I will continue to endorse the Throne of David in Jerusalem Isaiah 2:1-4, Jeremiah 3:17, Micah 4:1-8. One of my favourite chapters is Isaiah 6, and I consider that this is a vision of Jesus as the King / Priest on the Temple Throne in Jerusalem during the 1000 years.

And that has always been another problem with modern futurist premillennialism (Historicism does not share that problem with its modern alternative).

I and Christadelphians are not "future premillennialists" but endorse "continuous historicism" and accept John Thomas' exposition in his 5 volume exposition "Eureka - An Exposition of the Apocalypse",

The facts of Christadelphianism (as I believe I have expressed to you before) is that the sect's origin lays in the 19th century Restoration Movement. There's very little actually couched in scripture.

I appreciate your detailed and interesting overview.

Christadelphianism was an English version and Thomas eventually separated himself and his views from the movement. He, paradoxically, formalized his differences when he registered his church in America, calling it "Christadelphian" because church affiliation was required for conscientious objector status.

John Thomas was based in the US, but he preached in the UK and Christadelphianism grew in the UK mainly under the influence and guidance of Robert Roberts the editor of The Christadelphian magazine. Yes, John Thomas adopted the title "Christadelphian" because of the American Civil War. He dod not want the prospect of his brethren in the north and those in the south blowing out each other's brains as did many Catholics and Protestants.

For twenty centuries that has been the uniform orthodox thought, doctrine, and practice in Christianity.

Interesting perspective, but I consider that there have been faithful individuals and pockets of faithful throughout the 2000 years. Many of these were persecuted by the RCC as predicted in Daniel 7.

So Christadelphian is new and different.

We consider that our beliefs correspond to the Apostolic teaching and practice.

John Watson made inferences that are not supported by the plain reading of scripture.

I assume you mean John Thomas here. I am not sure if you have commented on this before, but your suggestion that the main body of Christians have taught the same ideas on or against the millennium for 2000 years is fallacious. The following quote from Gibbons appears to prove otherwise. and also Calvinism and Preterism is a modern development.
“The ancient and popular doctrine of the Millennium was intimately connected with the second coming of Christ. As the works of creation had been finished in six days, their duration, in their present state, according to a tradition which was attributed to the prophet Elijah, was fixed to six thousand years. By the same analogy it was inferred that this long period of labor and contention, which was now almost elapsed (as they supposed), would be succeeded by a joyful Sabbath of a thousand years; and that Christ, with the triumphant band of the Saints and the elect who had escaped death, or who had been miraculously revived, would reign upon earth till the time appointed for the last and general resurrection. So pleasing was this hope to the minds of believers, that the New Jerusalem, the seat of this blissful kingdom, was quickly adorned with all the gayest colors of the imagination. A felicity consisting only of pure and spiritual pleasure would have appeared too refined for its inhabitants, who were still supposed to possess their human nature and senses. A garden of Eden with the amusements of pastoral life, was no longer suited to the advanced state of society which prevailed under the Roman Empire. A city was therefore erected, of gold and precious stones, and a supernatural plenty of corn and wine was bestowed on the adjacent territory; in the free enjoyment of whose spontaneous productions, the happy and benevolent people was never to be restrained by any jealous laws of exclusive property. The assurance of such a millennium was carefully inculcated by a succession of fathers, from Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, who conversed with the immediate disciples of the apostles, down to Lactantius, who was preceptor to the son of Constantine. Though it might not be universally received, it appears to have been the reigning sentiment of the orthodox believers; and it seems so well adapted to the desires and apprehensions of mankind, that it must have contributed in a very considerable degree to the progress of the Christian faith. But when the edifice of the church was almost completed, the temporary support was laid aside. The doctrine of Christ’s reign upon earth was at first treated as a profound allegory, was considered by degrees as a doubtful and useless opinion, and was at length rejected as the absurd invention of heresy and fanaticism. A mysterious prophecy (the Apocalypse) which still forms a part of the sacred canon, but which was thought to favor the exploded sentiment, has very narrowly escaped the proscription of THE CHURCH.”

Acts 2-4 doesn't have a bunch of other thrones to deal with. It is a warning to Israel to help in the mission of Christ. It helps to know why they are saying what they are saying.

Refer my post here and previous Posts. Acts 2 is very clear and simple to me.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Josheb]

Greetings again Josheb and EarlyActs,

I will continue to endorse the Throne of David in Jerusalem Isaiah 2:1-4, Jeremiah 3:17, Micah 4:1-8. One of my favourite chapters is Isaiah 6, and I consider that this is a vision of Jesus as the King / Priest on the Temple Throne in Jerusalem during the 1000 years.

That sentence right there proves my points.

• Modern futurism is built solely on an inference-only selective use of scripture that emphasizes the Old over the New, neglecting the New Testament when its peaks specifically and explicitly to the OT texts used (several NT passages tell us Isaiah 2:1-4 is already accomplished).
• Additions to scripture are frequent in modern futurism, and the long held and well-established rules of exegesis are ignored in favor of doctrinally biased eisegesis (Jesus is never said to be on earth in Rev. 20. It is assumed he is on earth and the assumption is then pasted into the OT texts apart from scripture.).

.

 

[Mr GLee]

This is Rome. Large iron teeth. It is also not described as any particular beast/monster/animal because it was possibly an amalgamation of the others. He just couldn't describe what he saw. So, due to all the features, Daniel says it looked cruel and terrifying. Rome crushed the ancient world. And another way to know that this is talking about Nebuchadnezzar's statue from how God sees it, and not how Nebuchadnezzar and mankind see it is... ten horns = ten toes. This beast is a revival of the Roman Empire. The final empire in horrifying form.

This is not a parable. It is not story. It is a statement.

I would offer it has nothing to do with earthly Rome or Salt Lake city .His doctrines come down inspired from above. No signs to wonder after as if they were prophecy was given. Believer have the perfect word sealed with 7 seals till the end of time

Yes a statement, prophecy as a "parable: comparing the temporal historical dying things to the invisible eternal living things of God (faith) His understanding given to us as it is written . Without parables the anointing teacher Christ spoke not.

2 Corinthians 4:18King James Version18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

The mixing formula needed to rightly divide parables the signified tongue .

Again parables teach us how to walk or understand the unseen things of God

On one occasion speaking parables one right after the another they wondered and wondered .Christ hiding his understanding of faith, labor of love .

One time the faithless apostles trusting what their eye see the temporal. They made a democratic election who is the Alfa Dog .Jesus the Son of man standing two feet from them. They must of thought he way off his rocker. I beleive jesus the most misunderstood person that ever walked on water . To include his own family .Without parable he spoke not.

Luke 9:42-46 And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father. And they were all amazed (not understand) at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples, Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men. But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying. Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest.

On another occasion or parable the apostles thought Jesus was playing trick on them .They though he was going to the Jews in Jerusalem and ended up in a Gentile city , Not understanding the parable they demanded Christ bring down fire and consumed them (out of sight out of mind I known not where my brother Abel is.. (the foundation of paganism)


Luke 9:51-55 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Same question all must answer. The Christ manner of parables . . . Historical mixed with the eternal. . . the gospel daily rest

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Josheb,

That sentence right there proves my points. Modern futurism ...

Although futurism is popular but it not the Bible teaching, Futurism was invented by a Jesuit to deflect the accusation that the Little Horn of Daniel 7 that persecuted the faithful was the Papacy. Preterism was also invented by a Jesuit for the same purpose. I contribute and Chrisadelphians contribute to the Continuous Historic interpretation of the Books of Daniel and Revelation, and I identify the Little Horn of the Fourth Beast of Daniel 7 as the Papacy.

Christadelphians have a standard Bible Reading Chart called the Bible Companion. This covers three portions and covers reading the OT once and the NT twice each year. My practice has been to only consider one portion each day, and this year the second portion starting with the Psalms. We have recently concluded Isaiah and as well as reading the RV/KJV Interlinear Bible renditions of Isaiah, I also read Alec Motyer's new translation and brief notes and comments on the text in his book "Isaiah by the Day - A New Devotional Translation". He also wrote two commentaries on Isaiah and lectured on the Hebrew language using Isaiah as the basis. I differed with some of his teachings, but his final comments on page 317 based upon his studies of Isaiah were interesting.

He speaks against those who consider that "a coming kingdom is an acceptable thought but a coming King a problem".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Mr GLee]

Greetings again Josheb,

Although futurism is popular but it not the Bible teaching, Futurism was invented by a Jesuit to deflect the accusation that the Little Horn of Daniel 7 that persecuted the faithful was the Papacy. Preterism was also invented by a Jesuit for the same purpose. I contribute and Chrisadelphians contribute to the Continuous Historic interpretation of the Books of Daniel and Revelation, and I identify the Little Horn of the Fourth Beast of Daniel 7 as the Papacy.

Christadelphians have a standard Bible Reading Chart called the Bible Companion. This covers three portions and covers reading the OT once and the NT twice each year. My practice has been to only consider one portion each day, and this year the second portion starting with the Psalms. We have recently concluded Isaiah and as well as reading the RV/KJV Interlinear Bible renditions of Isaiah, I also read Alec Motyer's new translation and brief notes and comments on the text in his book "Isaiah by the Day - A New Devotional Translation". He also wrote two commentaries on Isaiah and lectured on the Hebrew language using Isaiah as the basis. I differed with some of his teachings, but his final comments on page 317 based upon his studies of Isaiah were interesting.

He speaks against those who consider that "a coming kingdom is an acceptable thought but a coming King a problem".

Kind regards
Trevor

Is not Christ the King of kings the invisible head reigning in the believers heart today?. What coming?

It would seem he will leave like a thief in the night on the last day under the Sun.

Satan the god of this world a thief from the beginning.

 

[Josheb]

Greetings again Josheb,

Although futurism is popular but it not the Bible teaching, Futurism was invented by a Jesuit to deflect the accusation that the Little Horn of Daniel 7 that persecuted the faithful was the Papacy. Preterism was also invented by a Jesuit for the same purpose. I contribute and Chrisadelphians contribute to the Continuous Historic interpretation of the Books of Daniel and Revelation, and I identify the Little Horn of the Fourth Beast of Daniel 7 as the Papacy.

None of that is true or correct. It's also self-contradictory because the views you have posted are modern futurist (they are modern views said to occur in the future). Think how Post 254 reads. It reads as, "Futurism is wrong and I'm a futurist posting futurist views."

The difference between "invented" and "formalized" should also be understood. Preterism has ALWAYS existed. It's NOT new. The appeals to de Alcazar as the inventor of preterism is propaganda. What de Alcazar was formalize a preterist case for defending the Pope against accusations he was the antichrist. It had nothing to do with eschatological doctrine beyond that at all. If you believe Jesus fulfilled all the OT messianic prophecies than you are a Christological preterist. Every Christian is a Christological preterist. Wholesale dismissal of preterism is stupid, self-contradictory, and hypocritical.

Modern futurism, on the other hand, was invented within the last 200 years. Historical premillennialism was not. The Historicists changed the name to separate their historical Historicism form the more modern inventions like Dispensationalism and those found in the Restoration Movement sects...... like Christadelphianism.

In other words, Post 254 demonstrates an amazing amount of ignorance. Given the fact EVERYTHING in Post 249 can be objectively verified (look all of it up - I encourage and exhort everyone to do so), there's no excuse for Post 254.

Christadelphians have a standard Bible Reading Chart called the Bible Companion.

It's "standard" only for Christadelphians, NOT all of Christendom.

This covers three portions and covers reading the OT once and the NT twice each year. My practice has been to only consider one portion each day, and this year the second portion starting with the Psalms. We have recently concluded Isaiah and as well as reading the RV/KJV Interlinear Bible renditions of Isaiah, I also read Alec Motyer's new translation and brief notes and comments on the text in his book "Isaiah by the Day - A New Devotional Translation". He also wrote two commentaries on Isaiah and lectured on the Hebrew language using Isaiah as the basis. I differed with some of his teachings, but his final comments on page 317 based upon his studies of Isaiah were interesting.

He speaks against those who consider that "a coming kingdom is an acceptable thought but a coming King a problem".

Kind regards
Trevor

I do not care.

The facts remain Christadelphianism is a minority sect that was invented in the 19th century, and it teaches things overtly contradictory to the whole of the Bible. Eschatologically speaking, there is no Jesus on earth during the 1000 years of Revelation. Scripture never states any such thing. This point has been broached in many of the threads in this board, but modern futurists do not have enough allegiance to scripture to let it rule over their doctrine, or enough integrity to acknowledge the obvious: The book of Revelation states Jesus comes to earth in chapter 21, and not before then. Therefore, NONE of the premillennial views are, nor can be, correct.

Bend eschatology to scripture, not John Thomas.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Josheb,

None of that is true or correct. It's also self-contradictory because the views you have posted are modern futurist (they are modern views said to occur in the future). Think how Post 254 reads. It reads as, "Futurism is wrong and I'm a futurist posting futurist views."

My impression is that Preterism suggests that most of the Book of Revelation has been fulfilled in the events surrounding AD 70. I am not sure, but you seem to label everything else that does not accept this past fulfillment as future or "Futurism". There are many different views that believe that much of the Book of Revelation is to be fulfilled in the future times since the Apostles.

The usual meaning of Futurism is that most of the events of Revelation will be fulfilled in the events immediately before and during the Second Coming of Jesus. In other words most of the Book of Revelation is still future. Some of these advocates consider that the Seals have yet to be fulfilled and they have a prominent teaching that the Antichrist will establish himself in Jerusalem. They do not accept the view that the Papacy is the Antichrist, the little horn of Daniel 7.

I contribute to the Continuous Historic view of the Books of Daniel and Revelation. This is not "Futurism" as I believe that much of the Book of Revelation has already been fulfilled, including the Seals, the Trumpets and Vials 1-5. I consider we are at present in the extensive period of the Sixth Vial.

The Continuous Historic View is not new and definitely not a 19th Century invention as you claim. Take for example the Seals, and many commentators over the Centuries have contributed to the following interpretation:
Seal 1 Gospel Era 1st Century, Seals 2-4 Specific war/famine/plague events in the Pagan Roman Empire in the 2nd-3rd Centuries.

The following commentators have subscribed to this view:
John Purvey 1390, Savanarola 1497, John Bale 1495-1563, Heinrich Bullinger 1557, David Chytraeus 1571, William Fulke 1573, Thomas Cranmer 1582, John Foxe 1587, Franscisco Ribera, James 1st 1601, Thomas Brightman 1605 and at least another 21 individuals before the 19th Century.

The facts remain Christadelphianism is a minority sect that was invented in the 19th century, and it teaches things overtly contradictory to the whole of the Bible. Eschatologically speaking, there is no Jesus on earth during the 1000 years of Revelation.

Revelation 5:9–10 (KJV): 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 20:4–6 (KJV): 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[CrowCross]

I contribute to the Continuous Historic view of the Books of Daniel and Revelation. This is not "Futurism" as I believe that much of the Book of Revelation has already been fulfilled, including the Seals, the Trumpets and Vials 1-5. I consider we are at present in the extensive period of the Sixth Vial.

Why? History hasn't shown that to be true.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings CrowCross,

Why? History hasn't shown that to be true.

I have given one example, the interpretation of the first four Seals as judgements on the Pagan Roman Empire in the second and third Centuries. Do you disagree with this view, or were these Seals fulfilled in AD 70 (Preterist), or another view are they future surrounding the return of Christ (Futurist)? What is your persuasion? I prefer the Continuous Historic view, starting when John wrote the Apocalypse in AD 96. I am especially encouraged by my understanding of the 6th Vial, which includes our present time before the return of Jesus, but I will not disclose this immediately, or even until we settle and agree concerning the first four Seals.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Mr GLee]

Greetings CrowCross,

I have given one example, the interpretation of the first four Seals as judgements on the Pagan Roman Empire in the second and third Centuries. Do you disagree with this view, or were these Seals fulfilled in AD 70 (Preterist), or another view are they future surrounding the return of Christ (Futurist)? What is your persuasion? I prefer the Continuous Historic view, starting when John wrote the Apocalypse in AD 96. I am especially encouraged by my understanding of the 6th Vial, which includes our present time before the return of Jesus, but I will not disclose this immediately, or even until we settle and agree concerning the first four Seals.

Kind regards
Trevor

I would offer from the Anil position "signified" using the things seen to give us the hidden gospel understanding .called hidden Manna in 2:17 our daily sweet honey bread.

He warns be careful how we hear who we say we do?

Jesus the Son of man prophesied living words from the Father. . Its a evil generation. . . no faith that could please God as it is written.

Spoken as a warning to do those that seek after a sign before they will believe (I am from Missouri crowd ) They Pharisees with Sadducees treated Jesus as a circus seal . .do a trick. . make a miracle then when we see it with own eyes we will believe for 15 seconds .

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

Natural unconverted mankind .Out of sight out of mind . We can understanding according to his understanding (faith) previously we had none .Not little, micro. nada. Dead in trespass

Seals as metaphors are used in parables. The signified tongue (parables) of Revelation. The whole chapter or what some call book.

They represent the final authroity of God . .7 seals (perfect) God is no longer bringing new prophecy after any manner. .

Satan the king of lying signs to wonder after. His only voice, the voice of false apostles, false prophets. oral traditons of dying mankind

I had a dream, a vision, out of the body experience. . .Like Satan the legion. I will give you all the kingdoms of the world and all there false glory .


Three times the Father gave Jesus the prophet the words "as it is written" Struck him out. never saw the faith ball come LOL

We walk understand the unseen things of God by His faith,(labor of love) the unseen power of God that works in those yoked with his labor of love (work of faith) not after the temporal dying lies of the father of lies .

No sign were given. When jesus walked out of the abomination of desolation. Temples built with dying human hand as a will. . Jesus the Son of man the apostle given words from the father declared it is desolate .. . . . . "Let it be desolate" and "it was" .

Eternal God living in temples made with hands of dying mankind .Abomination of desolation .