So what?
What has that to do with the Christian view of end times and prophecy?
So....Era 8:27 ...20 bowls of gold worth 1,000 darics, and two vessels of fine bright bronze as precious as gold. 1000 represent a large but not specific number of darics? I doubt it.
The 70 weeks. Zechariah and all the other prophets of the Old Testament.It is through Israel that the Messiah was to come. As such, they were chosen to be God's chosen people.
The word Gentile is actually foreign to the Old Testament, and is actually goyim, but we understand it as Gentile. When they are among Israel they are not called Israel, but "strangers". Why? They aren't Israel. They can become proselytes like Ruth, but that means they adopt the Jewish religion, culture and Mosaic Law. Can you give one verse that says that God's purpose was to take back land that apparently belongs to Satan and not God, and put it into the hands of those he created it for by redeeming a people from all nations? Just one verse. I expect to see Satan, dominion, and take back land from in that verse. I also want to see nations instead of tribes of Israel being assigned the land. The story of this Creation/word is very in depth.
Elect =/= chosen people of God in the Old Testament. And it isn't that Israel is more the chosen people of God, but Israel IS the chosen people of God. You can find plenty of verses in the Old Testament using those words of Israel all over the Old Testament. You have to consider all that Paul had said about the elect and about Israel. As for the elect, they were foreordain to the adoption of children through Christ. That is different then chosen people of God. And there is a difference I have already pointed out. You see, some of the chosen people of God of the Old Testament are damned to hell, yet they are called the chosen people of God. Can any of the elect be damned to hell?
Jew and Gentile believers are the church, and the Bible is clear that the church is one. However, the remnant of Israel, the remainder of the elect of Israel that has yet to come to salvation, are not a part of the church and, since they aren't believers, aren't even a part of your question. Revelation 21 is the official mention of all men, since at this time all men are all saved, all elect, are no longer Jews, Gentiles, etc, but are stated as all men. The temple no longer dwells with Israel/Jerusalem, but among all men, and all men shall be God's chosen people. This is the next age, the eternal age. The first things, such as Israel being God's chosen people, passed away with the first Earth and first heavens. All are one in the next age. All became one at the end of the first, at the consummation of the age, which is where all the plot lines converge and there are no loose plot ends. Everything comes together, considering that is what consummation means.
God's purpose for Israel is 70 weeks? Zechariah and all the other prophets of the OT?
Talk about misrepresenting what someone says! I never said that any land belonged to Satan. I said he has dominion over it through mankind and instead of the good dominion that God gave humankind at creation. See the first two chapters of Gen.
It is a serious shortcoming when someone demands all the answers to be given in one verse. But it does tell us in Col that God rescued us from what----the kingdom of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of Christ the Son. Scripture does tell us in 2 Cor 4:4 that the God of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel; of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. It does show us in both Is and Rev 21 that at the consummation all creation is restored.
They weren't assigned the land that was assigned to the descendants of Abraham. That is only one small piece of the big picture though. The big picture is about all the land. But redemption is not about individual nations or land borders or nations, or ethnicity.
Whatever that means.
Chosen for a purpose. Are non-Jewish believers not his chosen people? God has one family. Not two families.
Elect and chosen mean the same thing. It is the purpose that you have wrong. Israel was not chosen for salvation unto eternal life, they were chosen for a different purpose---the purpose which leads to Christ.
Yes. It is all there.
You have the whole Bible. Please find scripture, passages, context etc that supports what you are saying. Perhaps Deuteronomy?
Yet they were a sovereign geographic nation, and... still are. With Jerusalem being God's holy city, which He calls Zion. (As does David.)
If he has dominion, that makes him sovereign. So why did He go to God to ask permission to go after one of his subjects? You said he has dominion, which means sovereingty, yet he can't act without God's permission.
I thought you said God was acting to take land under the dominion of Satan and give it to Israel or the church. (It looked to me like you were leaning towards the church.)
I agree, but it was because I knew, as you show here, that you couldn't do it in one verse, and you couldn't do it holding the whole Bible. It isn't in there. Postmillennialism is not present in the Bible. We are strangers in a foreign land, and our treasure is not in this world, but is with God in heaven, where our true home is. In this age, in this fallen world, Israel is the chosen people/nation of God and this is seen and explained throughout the Old Testament. Some people might say, well if Israel had not turned on God, everything would be different. That would/could never happen because God straight up told Moses that Israel was going to reject Him and go after other gods. He already knew. That is why He spoke of a time after all the blessings and the curses have been fulfilled. That time is coming.
The story of scripture is the spiritual message that flows through the Bible from beginning to end. It starts with Adam's sin, it goes through Noah and what the purpose of God was in the flood (there are A LOT of strange stories connected to it), through Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and including Ishmael. (It wouldn't surprise me if the Palestinians were descendants of Ishmael). God chose to put His name on Earth on the nation of Israel (when using the word peoples, it is speaking of a nation), and through Israel the Messiah would come. Their Savior and King in the line of David and Melchizedek for Israel, and the Savior King/Lord of the Gentiles. This is all in this age, before the consummation of everything. Jesus comes, and Israel rejects Him. By this rejection, according to Paul, the Gentiles were obedient and received Him in His gospel. After God is done dealing with the Gentiles, He will again turn to His remnant/elect in Israel, and He will save them. None of this is a question of how, as though there is more then one redemption or salvation. It is all about when. The redemption is the same throughout history, it doesn't matter for who, or when. It is the same.
Again, you have to keep it in line with scripture. No, if they are not part of Israel they are not His chosen people. The Old Testament is clear who bears the title, God's chosen people. And God's faithfulness to His promises is seen through scripture, all the way to the end of the age. And if you consider the context of scripture, you can say there are two families. One the chosen people of God, complete with those who are simply chosen people of God in name only. That is, they are physical descendants of Abraham, and it is in that that they stake their claim. That is fine and good, however, the one's who actually belong to God, those who do not reject Him, they are also Abraham's spiritual descendants, having the same spirit as Abraham and being called through Isaac, the son of promise. Those Paul would say are those who are of Israel. Those whose circumcision is a circumcision of the heart.
So if you are elected to a state office, that means you are president. Woohoo. Oh wait. It isn't all the same. If Israel was not chosen for salvation unto eternal life, that means that NO ONE is Israel can be saved. If you believe that that is wrong, then that means you have the purpose wrong. What it means is that you are short sighted and not seeing the big picture. There is a lot more to the story. An additional two millennia that does not fit in with what you are saying. They serve a purpose, and the whole reason is because of... Gentiles and Israel. We have the times of the Gentiles, as spoken by Luke where the Gentiles trample on the courtyard of the temple. You have Israel, which Paul tells us has a future date with God, where they will find their redemption. It is not another redemption, or salvation. It isn't about how, but about WHEN. They will meet, recognize and accept their Savior just as we have, but at a future time.
Dominion does not mean sovereign.
I didn't say either one of those things. I said he is restoring all the earth from the work and influence of Satan, and he does this by conquering sin and death, and he conquers sin and death by Jesus substituting Himself on the cross to pay the owed debt for sin of his people---those he CHOSE in Christ. Did you not know that?
1 Peter 2:9-10 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, and holy nation, a people for God's own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who has called you our of darkness and into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy but now you have received mercy.
Of course it is. You just do not understand how that promise was fulfilled in Christ, or how to read prophecy. How to read and understand prophecy is something we must learn. The first step in that is to read it in as though we were the first hearers of the prophecy. Find out how they would understand it and recognize that it often has a direct application to the immediate future of those hearers or their current situation, and also future events and times relating to redemption and its final outcome----particularly Christ, who he is, and what he will do. It is the NT that interprets those events.
You could say that but you would be incorrect. It would be more accurate to say believing Israel is the older brother.
Paul says all believers with no distinction are the descendants of the spiritual seed of Abraham.
Do they receive all the same benefits and promises and curses for disobedience, that the natural descendants do? Is God their God or not? Many non Hebrews left Egypt with Jacob (Israel). Jesus had a number of "Goyim" in his lineage.
Distinct in purpose. They are unbelievers equally with unbelievers outside of Israel. Unbelief is unbelief. Belief is belief. A remnant will be given to Christ and be believers. I do not deny that a remnant of Jews will be saved-----those God chooses to save. I just deny your version of that.
They already have gone through tribulation, and are going through tribulation now. And I believe you have wrongly identified Jacobs trouble but we have been over that in other threads and what I said and the support I gave it was dismissed rather than considered, so I will not do so again. This Energizer bunny approach that can speak on one subject and only one subject over and over and over, saying the same things, for years amazes me.
I take it you didn't look up synonyms for dominion. If you have dominion, then you are the sovereign. God made Adam sovereign over His creation by giving him dominion. That is why the word dominion and sovereign are synonyms. They can be used interchangeably.
Which does not say
You gave your own interpretation of what I was saying and what I meant by changing my wording and altering my intent. People do the same thing with the Bible all the time, and when it is pointed out they either say "huh?" because they have no idea what that means, or they deny having done it.
It does not matter what dictionaries say about it. They are often very imprecise, especially with synonyms, and people then use them any way that suits their position. If God gave sovereignty to Adam over his creation we are in big trouble, because that means sovereignty would be taken out of the hands of God.
Yes, that makes my point exactly. God created earth for mankind, and put him in charge of it to tend it and care for it. They and we are his servants. But they were not sovereign over creation but under him and made in his image and likeness, therefore required by him to rule over creation according to his perfect moral righteousness. We still are. That is our job. God subjected the entire creation to futility because of their failure. God did that. Not Adam. Read Eccl and find out what it is like under the sun if you don't believe me.
Mock all you want but at least try and use an analogy that relates to what it is being applied to.
That defies all logic. Have you not heard----"no one is saved by the law" ? Have you not read the book of Hebrews that tells us the blood of beasts cannot save, that they cannot clear the conscience of anyone, or change a single heart? Unless they were offered with faith they were nothing more than a stay of execution. And faith came to OT believers the same way it comes to NT believers. Because God chooses them for his purposes and by grace through faith which is a gift of God, shines that light in them.
What you consider the big picture is wrong. But I don't believe no one in Israel is saved and never said I did.
It does fit into it. You simply fail to understand what I have said about the millennium, or reject it and then assuming you are right tell me my view doesn't fit your view. I disagree with your view of the millennium and you have yet to even discuss my view. You just keep repeating yours as though that is a valid argument all by itself.
It isn't about how or when it is about WHAT.
That is a very narrow purpose. What was his purpose in his covenant relationship with Israel. Take your time. Think it through.
I did take it back to where one should begin. At the beginning. Everything follows that. Systematically, in a straight line, without breaks, back tracking, or change exactly the way God planned and purposed everything in the history of redemption. Surely you do not think redemption began with Israel. It is one continuous history, the subject, redemption, and you say give me scriptures, passages, context that supports it!! Unbelievable.
That makes no sense. You agreed it couldn't be done, and should never be done (demand all the answers be given in one verse) so you did it because you knew I couldn't do that?! And I did do it by giving the beginning, the middle and the end. Learning how to put them together using the whole Bible is not for me to do for you. That is something you should be doing yourself and if you did, we would not be having this disagreement or you would be able to refute my position using the whole Bible. When someone says the purpose for Israel was the seventy weeks it indicates they are not bothering to use the whole Bible.
I am not a postmillennialism and am not presenting anything I have said from that view. I most closely align with idealist amellinialism. If you don't know what that is (and I have told you that is where I am coming from) then you have no business arguing against what I present until you learn what it is. Instead of carrying on the conversation as though I was postmillennial.
Earth is our real home. God created it for us. The creation through mankind has been corrupted (and it is Jesus' creation and marvelous it is) and he is restoring it (our home) and us. Isaiah 11. Rev 21.Even its corruption, God's glory is still over all the earth. Watched clouds shift across a blue sky or morph shape and color as the sun rises or sets, lately? Watched and listened to rust colored leaves of an oak tree in fall, buffeted by a wind?
You think so? His glory (presence) left the temple long before it was destroyed in 70a.d. That is God leaving Israel because they broke the covenant, not because God broke the covenant. They have no priests to intercede with God for them. No Holy Place where God resides symbolically. No sacrifices to temporarily cover their sins. No king. The covenant within the Sinai covenant that will not be broken is the one God made with David that he would have a descendant who would sit on his throne forever(eternally). That King is Jesus and he is on that throne now. When he returns to earth it will be in judgement.
The Bible is the history of redemption from beginning to end. If you pay attention to genealogies and especially that of Jesus, all those you mentioned except Ismael and there was no reason to mention him, are the seed bearer, that begins with Seth a son of Adam. Follow the seed. That is the purpose.
It is speaking of the sons of Jacob. The 12 tribes and they were not a nation but a wandering nomadic people until they asked for a king. Then it became a kingdom, an earthly one. And even then the borders God had designed to give them refuge were not fully established until David. And after David it became two nations. Israel, the northern kingdom and Judah the southern kingdom.
The end of the story is when Jesus returns in judgement and restores ALL things. It will happen when the last sheep has been gathered into the fold. The last Jew the last one from all over the world. And every single one of us goes through tribulation on our journey, as does the creation.
are you tracking the conversation? Here is what you said:
So now I pasted what you said. You could have just said that isn't what you meant. I mean, you were building a pretty good postmillennial framework there.
Not necessarily. It is possible to give sovereignty to someone below you, and then take it back. Just like Jesus and the Father in I Corinthians I believe. After the last enemy is defeated, Jesus gives the kingdom back to the Father that He might be all in all. And Paul makes it clear that just because the Father gave the kingdom and sovereignty to the Son, the Father is exempted.
Consider this passage: "20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in [h]Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all."
So take it from a history student. Sovereignty and dominion are synonymous. The way a sovereignty works is the king grants sovereignty of an area to someone, and they serve the king. In their sovereignty/dominion, they are the authority, however, the king doesn't fall under this person, the person is still beholden to the king. The king could forcibly remove that person, or remove them with just a word. The king still retains authority. Like with Joseph and Pharaoh. Joseph was the number 2 man in Egypt, second only the Pharaoh who maintained his authority. As long as Joseph fulfilled his duties, the Pharaoh was happy.
