WW III and the rebuilding of the temple

[Arial]

That has been my experience

It is still a false equivalency and if you would deal with what an idealist/amillenialist actually says instead of skimming or ignoring it, that would not be your experience.

Do you believe God stops at Israel? Uniquely hated by God?

Why do you ask me that when I have already showed you that I don't and pointed out that you are arguing from a false equivalency?

That is not true at all. Israel is not everything, however, Israel is a big part.

But that is the false equivalency that you are arguing through. You didn't ever perceive that I was showing your false equivalency when I said that. Instead you jumped on the statement and responded to it as though that is what I was saying.

It just means that they missed some things in the prophecy.

Nevetheless, it is the false equivalency that you operate from in this discussion. We can't even have a discussion that removes those false equivalencies from your responses by having you recognize them and stop using them! You just continue with red herrings and self defense. I pointed them out for a reason. In hopes that the exchanges could cease to be nothing more than a band wagon for you to posit your interpretations, but a discussion, a real one, about exploring another view through the Bible. It is something that rarely happens on any subject with anyone when a disagreement occurs and it is a crying shame.

You are missing the point. I haven't argued against amillennialism yet, unless replacing the Israel with the church is part of amillennialism

You are arguing against amillennialism even if that is not your intent and even if you don't know that. You are arguing with an amilennialist and ignoring what I say. And you are doing so from false equivalencies----the four false equivalencies that I mentioned. Instead of addressing your FE's as what they are, and what you are using, you are treating them as statements I am making, and responding accordingly, which is another logical fallacy.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to have a proper view of eschatology without dealing with Israel first. The reason is that eschatology has its primary source in Israel and the Old Testament. So many prophecies for eschatology. Jesus expanded on them. He fleshed it out. Not only is Israel going to go through war and hard times, the temple is going to be destroyed. He added to it. But each time He said, but the time isn't here yet. I can't help but seeing large chunks of this as multi-fulfillment prophecy. Or prophecy that looks like it related to one thing when it actually didn't. I can't line up Matthew with Luke because the disciples asked different questions, and Jesus provided differing answers. The court of the temple will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. That is different then, immediately afterwards the Son returns.

Irrelevant to the post it is responding to. Red herring. Band standing.

I put empahsis on Israel, because terms of eschatology are couched in Israel for whatever reason. (Olivet discourse, Old testament, etc.) I am also a hopeless romantic, and the plans God has for Israel, being His chosen people, from what I see is incredible. Prodigal son incredible. While some of the church are the elder son upset the Father took his son back in.

Irrelevant to the post it is responding to. Red herring. Band standing.

I do not see any of the above changing so I am done wasting my time.

 

[Arial]

Is there a reason that the idea that God may have His own plan as far as timing and how Israel is saved seems to greatly upset you. If you want to see a difference of manner in salvation, look at Cornelius and company, and then look at Saul. Would you say that they got saved in the same manner? I would say yes, except that Paul's salvation was much more direct. We are regenerated. Saul was regenerated when Jesus knocked him down and then point blank told him that he was attacking God's people. Why would that be regenerating? Paul's whole life, as he said, was about God. He believed in with his full heart that Jesus was an enemy of God. His whole mind, his whole world was transformed by Jesus revelation. He was broken. God would basically tell him he was dead, here's a new name for your new life. If you read in Zechariah, which I believe is an explanation of what happens, Jesus will go to Jerusalem and present Himself to His people and they will accept Him. They will recognize Him. Why? Regeneration. God Himself lifts the blindness and hardness from Israel, and they recognize them who they pierced, and they, like Paul are broken down. It says they will mourn for him as one mourn's for an only child. Like Paul, they will be saved. It's different in only that God is reconciling with His chosen people of promise, as He promised.

False equivalency in play. Irrelevant body of text. Red herring. Band standing.

I speak of the end. The final redemption of the elect of Israel, which you keep saying no to.

No I haven't. I have said no to your view of it. If you would actually consider my posts, instead of only yours, you would know that.
`

Zechariah 13, however, consider 12-14 together.
"
“Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
And against the man, My Associate,”
Declares the Lord of hosts.
“Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered;
And I will turn My hand [d]against the little ones.
8 “It will come about in all the land,”
Declares the Lord,
“That two parts in it will be cut off and perish;
But the third will be left in it.
9 “And I will bring the third part through the fire,
Refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them;
I will say, ‘They are My people,’
And they will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

This is obviously speaking of Christ's return in judgement, referencing first his crucifiction. The one third and two thirds. It does not necessarily have to be literal and even if it is, that is something no one could ever know by counting. The smaller portion are the redeemed. And if it is the final judgement, it does not have to apply to only national Israel, since God calls even those who are not his people ( not of Israel) his people in Christ. It echoes Hosea 2:23. And if the period between the two advents is the millennial spoken of in Rev all believers are refined through the fire---tribulations. (1 Cor 3:11-16; Matt 24:3-14, 29-31; John 16:33; 1 Peter 4:12-14; Romans 5:3-5; James 1:12; Rev 2:10; 1 Peter 1:6-7)

Israel received judgment as a nation in 70 A.D for crucifying their Messiah. It was trampled underfoot then by the Romans and has continued to be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles even to this day. Much of the land God gave them is occupied by other nations and a mosque stands where the temple used to be. God continues to work in Jew and Gentile bringing the elect to Christ and will until the last day.

The judgement that remains is the one that all unbelievers encounter, but Jesus is on the throne of David now and always will be. And all the promises given to Israel are fulfilled in Christ and not only for Israel.

 

[TMSO]

Because everything God does is a joke. You should read I Corinthians 15.

 

[TMSO]

You still haven't been able to answer the question and it is quite simple to do in just one to three sentences.

I did answer. Just because you don't like the original answer...

 

[Arial]

I did answer. Just because you don't like the original answer...

That is what everyone says when it is pointed out that they didn't answer a question. You have made it look as though you were answering the question, and maybe even thought you were because you missed the entire point of the question. But what was done was rabbit trail down a soap box analysis of your opinion.

 

[Arial]

Because everything God does is a joke. You should read I Corinthians 15.

I was not laughing at anything God does. I was laughing at the illogical lengths you went to in order to not admit you were wrong about your definition. Just to be clear, since you post above is an attempt to make me look bad by posting something that is in no way related to what I was laughing at.

Just give it up. I have said I am done with the conversation and so now you wish to exchange personal remarks?

 

[TMSO]

False equivalency in play. Irrelevant body of text. Red herring. Band standing.

So what is incorrect, Calvin? Regeneration? Saul's conversion?

No I haven't. I have said no to your view of it. If you would actually consider my posts, instead of only yours, you would know that.
`

So explain the final redemption of Israel. Again, Israel, not the church. How is Israel finally redeemed after the fulness of the Gentiles has come in, and the partial blindness/hardness is lifted from Israel.

This is obviously speaking of Christ's return in judgement, referencing first his crucifiction.

John 3:17: For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. That doesn't sound like judgment at all.

The one third and two thirds. It does not necessarily have to be literal and even if it is, that is something no one could ever know by counting.

Do you trust God? Do you believe He could do it? He said 1/3 and 2/3. Is there any reason to doubt Him? Is there any reason to understand why 2/3 of Israel perished, and 1/3 remain redeemed would be the fulfillment of the prophecy, as directly as the prophecies made to the chief baker and taste tester in Egypt. The seven years of abundance and famine? Prophecies about Jesus?

The smaller portion are the redeemed. And if it is the final judgement, it does not have to apply to only national Israel, since God calls even those who are not his people ( not of Israel) his people in Christ. It echoes Hosea 2:23. And if the period between the two advents is the millennial spoken of in Rev all believers are refined through the fire---tribulations. (1 Cor 3:11-16; Matt 24:3-14, 29-31; John 16:33; 1 Peter 4:12-14; Romans 5:3-5; James 1:12; Rev 2:10; 1 Peter 1:6-7)

You are ignoring the rest of the prophecy. Israel is under attack in the prophecy. The final battle. In this final battle, 2/3 perish, and 1/3 are saved (in more ways than one). This occurs before the start of the millennium, with Jesus return to Jerusalem after rescuing Israel from destruction. It is at this time that they look upon Him whom they have pierced, recognized Him, and mourn. And if it is Jerusalem, will still have what Jesus said in Matthew where He said Jerusalem would not see Him again until the say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." That is to say, they accept Him as King, after having rejected Him in Matthew.

Israel received judgment as a nation in 70 A.D for crucifying their Messiah. It was trampled underfoot then by the Romans and has continued to be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles even to this day. Much of the land God gave them is occupied by other nations and a mosque stands where the temple used to be. God continues to work in Jew and Gentile bringing the elect to Christ and will until the last day.

So how does this from Luke fit in with Matthew? One says Jesus comes immediately after the conclusion of the tribulation, which was 70 AD according to some, the other says that Gentiles trample the court until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled. Is there any reason not to equate "the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled" to Paul's "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in"? If one does, it means that the time of Israel's redemption, and end of the Olivet discourse has not happened yet.

The judgement that remains is the one that all unbelievers encounter, but Jesus is on the throne of David now and always will be. And all the promises given to Israel are fulfilled in Christ and not only for Israel.

 

[TMSO]

This is obviously speaking of Christ's return in judgement, referencing first his crucifiction. The one third and two thirds. It does not necessarily have to be literal and even if it is, that is something no one could ever know by counting. The smaller portion are the redeemed. And if it is the final judgement, it does not have to apply to only national Israel, since God calls even those who are not his people ( not of Israel) his people in Christ. It echoes Hosea 2:23. And if the period between the two advents is the millennial spoken of in Rev all believers are refined through the fire---tribulations. (1 Cor 3:11-16; Matt 24:3-14, 29-31; John 16:33; 1 Peter 4:12-14; Romans 5:3-5; James 1:12; Rev 2:10; 1 Peter 1:6-7)

Final statement on this. Why would God put Himself out on a limb where someone will look and say, "You said one third and two thirds. You lied". Do you believe God would do that? He already said that anyone on Earth who says God says something, and it isn't direct/straight forward, and fulfilled as stated, is to be taken out and executed for speaking presumptiously in the name of the Lord. The only reason I can think of you saying "it does not necessarily have to be literal" is because you are having difficulty making it fit into your belief. The purpose behind me posting is to get you to reconsider your belief, reshape if you will, based on such inconsistencies. Not to change. Not to say you are wrong. That isn't how this kind of discourse is supposed to work, no matter what you say. This isn't a wrecking ball, this is a chunk of rock, a hammer and a chisel. I do get something out of it, and I do consider my belief every time. However, with such things as the above, since you say things like "It does not necessarily have to be literal", and then impugn God's nature by saying "that is something no one could ever know by counting".. God knows. And He will not speak presumptiously. You aren't going to have any impact on my beliefs with that.

With God's prophecies of Jesus shown to have been literally prophesied, would He go to those who seek only to find fault in Christ and say "It doesn't necessarily have to be literal and even if it is, no one could ever know for sure..." This applies solely to Israel. It is God's eschatological prophecy related to Israel. Don't worry, there is plenty to go around for the rest of the world. Zechariah is speaking specifically to how God deals with Israel, His chosen people. There is plenty of prophecies of eschatology that discuss the rest of the world. Wars, people eyes melting out of their skulls, etc. You are sounding more like a replacement theology person putting all of these prophecies for Israel on the church. (Remember, Israel isn't believers, but non-believers, and elect who have not been saved yet.) God is going to redeem His wayward people. Again, even Jesus made a separation between the church and Israel. The Father sent Jesus to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Later He says there is another flock that is not His. That is, is not Israel. Two flocks of sheep, with the delineation being "of the house of Israel", and "another flock". One fold, two flocks. So what if they aren't brought into the fold at the same time? There is still only one door.

 

[Mr GLee]

The 2/3rds points to those who will die... unsaved, they will perish as it says. The 1/3 are the elect whom God will bring through blood a fire, purge (some translations say purge) and purify them, testing them as gold. I believe this point to a future event.

The 2/3 used as .666 represents the non redeemed.

 

[TMSO]

The 2/3 used as .666 represents the non redeemed.

Sort of. It represents those who will perish, while the 1/3 represents those who will be brought through the fire, purged and purified, tested as gold.

 

[TMSO]

I was not laughing at anything God does. I was laughing at the illogical lengths you went to in order to not admit you were wrong about your definition. Just to be clear, since you post above is an attempt to make me look bad by posting something that is in no way related to what I was laughing at.

Just give it up. I have said I am done with the conversation and so now you wish to exchange personal remarks?

I think you have missed the point of the OP, and I have allowed this to get really lost. The point is not to prove premillennialism right, and everyone else wrong. It is to look at prophecy. Specifically things that are happening now, or could happen in the very near future, that are in line with signs and prophecies given in scripture. It was to stir discussion about the possibility that everything could be coming to a head now. Not that it is. A possibility. That is why I tagged you as I did earlier by saying, this is the opportunity for you to see if things a premillennialist says will happen does happen. That does not automatically make them right. It just means that they properly interpreted prophecies, or, put better, better discerned signs of Jesus coming. It doesn't speak to the millennium at all. It can be tagged on, but that is all it would be. It can't be more without discussion. I'm not trying to attack your belief, unless you are a heretical preterist. I cannot stand someone who would change the nature of Christ for the sake of their eschatology. (I speak of the heretical preterist. That change of Christ's nature makes them heretics.)

If you want another thread where we can deal with how the millennium fits in the big picture, I can try to set one up, except attempt to form it better. I need sleep, so spending two hours trying to make sure I give you a good response is really cutting into my sleep. The fact that you think I am just glossing over things, while partially correct (I won't lie on that), is not the problem. Why two hours? I probably erase 10,000 plus character responses every 10 to 15 minutes and start over. I'm not going to remember everything. I believe you and everyone here is worth time. I don't necessarily have the time considering I work 12 hour night shifts, and I'm sitting here after a night shift, and I have another one tonight. I'm already at over an hour and a half just dealing with ONE comment, and now this little bit.

 

[Arial]

I think you have missed the point of the OP, and I have allowed this to get really lost. The point is not to prove premillennialism right, and everyone else wrong. It is to look at prophecy. Specifically things that are happening now, or could happen in the very near future, that are in line with signs and prophecies given in scripture. It was to stir discussion about the possibility that everything could be coming to a head now. Not that it is. A possibility. That is why I tagged you as I did earlier by saying, this is the opportunity for you to see if things a premillennialist says will happen does happen. That does not automatically make them right. It just means that they properly interpreted prophecies, or, put better, better discerned signs of Jesus coming. It doesn't speak to the millennium at all. It can be tagged on, but that is all it would be. It can't be more without discussion. I'm not trying to attack your belief, unless you are a heretical preterist. I cannot stand someone who would change the nature of Christ for the sake of their eschatology. (I speak of the heretical preterist. That change of Christ's nature makes them heretics.)

If you want another thread where we can deal with how the millennium fits in the big picture, I can try to set one up, except attempt to form it better. I need sleep, so spending two hours trying to make sure I give you a good response is really cutting into my sleep. The fact that you think I am just glossing over things, while partially correct (I won't lie on that), is not the problem. Why two hours? I probably erase 10,000 plus character responses every 10 to 15 minutes and start over. I'm not going to remember everything. I believe you and everyone here is worth time. I don't necessarily have the time considering I work 12 hour night shifts, and I'm sitting here after a night shift, and I have another one tonight. I'm already at over an hour and a half just dealing with ONE comment, and now this little bit.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/idealist-amillennialism.2336/

 

[Mr GLee]

You are ignoring the rest of the prophecy. Israel is under attack in the prophecy. The final battle. In this final battle, 2/3 perish, and 1/3 are saved (in more ways than one). This occurs before the start of the millennium, with Jesus return to Jerusalem after rescuing Israel from destruction. It is at this time that they look upon Him whom they have pierced, recognized Him, and mourn. And if it is Jerusalem, will still have what Jesus said in Matthew where He said Jerusalem would not see Him again until the say "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." That is to say, they accept Him as King, after having rejected Him in Matthew.

Hi

Which of the two Israel were under attack ?

Note . . . . .(green ) Christian the chaste virgin bride as sons of God.

As new creatures we are not what we will be. (The literal eternal bride)

# 1) Non-redeemed Israel remaining after the name Jacob the deceiver?

# 2) Born again redeemed Israel whose was promised a new name.

It was changed by the unseen Holy Father in Acts . .calling her Christian .

Remember in Acts our Father did rename the bride which he promised in Isaiah 62. God changed her name to Christian the bride .

Christian a more befitting name to name the bride of all nations ..

Christian literally with no other meaning added ."Residents of the city of Christ .Prepared for his wife" spoken of in Revelation. .She is named after her husband and founder of the city. . . . .Christ

God as Christ is not a racist.

.Satan the racist . the father of lies a murderer from the beginning Cain and Abel

Its wile of the evil one to seduce mankind to believe that God is a Jewish man as King of kings.

The propmised of the rename below. .

Isaiah 62 King James VersionFor Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the Lord, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God. Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the Lord delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

The Lord is married to what he calls her, as sons (born again) the chaste virgin bride . Virgin, not married. . not sexless. Satan would make it about the lust of the flesh having no spiritual insight

Satan's carnal weapons' of warfare .Lust flesh, lust of the eyes the two building blocks of false pride.( I will give you all the worlds glory bow down and deny your father

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you (Timothy) to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ

Romans 9:5-7EasyEnglish Bible. . It was their ancestors that God chose to make great many years ago. And Christ himself, as a man, was born to an Israelite family. Christ is God, who rules over all things. We should praise him for ever! This is true! Amen. God promised good things to Israel's people. But I am not saying that what God promised did not happen. It is clear that not all of Israel's people are God's true people. Not all of them are true descendants of Abraham. God told Abraham, ‘It is only Isaac that I will call the father of your descendants.’

In that way the father of lies who is not subject to the gospel, the spiritual understanding of parables , The liar makes the word Israel what the eyes see the temporal out ward Jew stand alone no comparison .Again no gospel understanding it remains a parable mystery

What God calls altogether one Satan divides (no spiritual understanding (faith) What God calls one two make one the liar calls one of new alphabet LGBTQIA+

Turning things upside down. Inspired after the things seen (earthly dying) Lust of the flesh, lust of the eye. The two building blocks of false pride

It would seem Satan the identity thief king of lying signs to wonder after as if it was true prophecy trying to destroy the meaning of the word Christian

Many say and teach it was a derogatory word used to persecute the Christian, as if the the Potter had no understanding and needed somethng from the clay .

I would think make the name Christian the "virgin bride great again " . Sound D Trump (LOL) .

Christian T shirts. "Make the virgin bride great again." . .

One size fits all.

 

[TMSO]

Hi

Which of the two Israel were under attack ?

Note . . . . .(green ) Christian the chaste virgin bride as sons of God.

As new creatures we are not what we will be. (The literal eternal bride)

# 1) Non-redeemed Israel remaining after the name Jacob the deceiver?

# 2) Born again redeemed Israel whose was promised a new name.

It was changed by the unseen Holy Father in Acts . .calling her Christian .

Remember in Acts our Father did rename the bride which he promised in Isaiah 62. God changed her name to Christian the bride .

Christian a more befitting name to name the bride of all nations ..

Christian literally with no other meaning added ."Residents of the city of Christ .Prepared for his wife" spoken of in Revelation. .She is named after her husband and founder of the city. . . . .Christ

God as Christ is not a racist.

.Satan the racist . the father of lies a murderer from the beginning Cain and Abel

Its wile of the evil one to seduce mankind to believe that God is a Jewish man as King of kings.

The propmised of the rename below. .

Isaiah 62 King James VersionFor Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth. And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the Lord, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God. Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the Lord delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married. For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

The Lord is married to what he calls her, as sons (born again) the chaste virgin bride . Virgin, not married. . not sexless. Satan would make it about the lust of the flesh having no spiritual insight

Satan's carnal weapons' of warfare .Lust flesh, lust of the eyes the two building blocks of false pride.( I will give you all the worlds glory bow down and deny your father

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you (Timothy) to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ

Romans 9:5-7EasyEnglish Bible. . It was their ancestors that God chose to make great many years ago. And Christ himself, as a man, was born to an Israelite family. Christ is God, who rules over all things. We should praise him for ever! This is true! Amen. God promised good things to Israel's people. But I am not saying that what God promised did not happen. It is clear that not all of Israel's people are God's true people. Not all of them are true descendants of Abraham. God told Abraham, ‘It is only Isaac that I will call the father of your descendants.’

In that way the father of lies who is not subject to the gospel, the spiritual understanding of parables , The liar makes the word Israel what the eyes see the temporal out ward Jew stand alone no comparison .Again no gospel understanding it remains a parable mystery

What God calls altogether one Satan divides (no spiritual understanding (faith) What God calls one two make one the liar calls one of new alphabet LGBTQIA+

Turning things upside down. Inspired after the things seen (earthly dying) Lust of the flesh, lust of the eye. The two building blocks of false pride

It would seem Satan the identity thief king of lying signs to wonder after as if it was true prophecy trying to destroy the meaning of the word Christian

Many say and teach it was a derogatory word used to persecute the Christian, as if the the Potter had no understanding and needed somethng from the clay .

I would think make the name Christian the "virgin bride great again " . Sound D Trump (LOL) .

Christian T shirts. "Make the virgin bride great again." . .

One size fits all.

The nation of Israel was under attack. The church did not exist in the Old Testament, but was veiled. It came to fruition and was unveiled in the New Testament. This did not rewrite the Old Testament prophecies. Zechariah is intended for Israel. There are other prophecies for the rest of the world in the Old Testament, but if God speaks of Israel, He is speaking of Israel. Israel is made up of two groups. The unsaved who will perish, and the unsaved who are elect, and thus will be saved when they reach the time God has appointed for them.

 

[TMSO]

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/idealist-amillennialism.2336/

I looked at bit at what I wrote again. I take time because I believe that people are worth it. I am not trying to undermine your belief, because this is eschatology. We aren't sure. So... look at what is happening, and go over what we have. That is all. I will consider looking at the above, as I am tired and a little sick. (Sick as in, sometimes hacking up a lung... except I'm not there yet.)