Why so much against Calvinism?

[civic]

Ya--that is my point. Honestly, I owe some of these things to member Josheb. Things he has said, cause me to deep dive into the events and players leading up to and including the reformation and what followed.
Far too many folks online, anyway, simply repeat things they have heard or read, that are not factual.
We are blessed with an 'embarrassment of riches'--so there is little excuse.

This creates an atmosphere where a great deal of patience and preseverence is required to wade through it when trying to discuss these issues.
Josh has those characteristics and I applaud his efforts.

Arminius is much closer to todays calvinist then he is to todays arminian. Think about that one for a moment.

 

[Alive]

Arminius is much closer to todays calvinist then he is to todays arminian. Think about that one for a moment.

Yes--I have done so.
Full disclosure. I try not to refer to myself as a Calvinist, but rather as a biblicist.
LOL
Although I have all of Calvin's materials and commentary in my Accordance Bible software and find him to be the most thorough and honest student of scripture. He was apt to leave no stone unturned.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Yes--I have done so.
Full disclosure. I try not to refer to myself as a Calvinist, but rather as a biblicist.
LOL
Although I have all of Calvin's materials and commentary in my Accordance Bible software and find him to be the most thorough and honest student of scripture. He was apt to leave no stone unturned.

However you cut this pie, for me I was saved reading the Bible one day in my bedroom alone, and later I found that the Bible itself confirmed my experience spiritually exactly, and found Reformed literature over time and started saying to myself, "YES YES!!! THAT is EXACTLY my experience of salvation too!" So how do you pretend there is some difference between the Bible and the doctrines of grace from the born again reformed camp?

I'm not advocating experience over scripture, but I am saying that they coincide and there is no need to be skeptical of experiences like that, unless they are blatantly obviously not salvific in content or fruit.

 

[Alive]

However you cut this pie, for me I was saved reading the Bible one day in my bedroom alone, and later I found that the Bible itself confirmed my experience spiritually exactly, and found Reformed literature over time and started saying to myself, "YES YES!!! THAT is EXACTLY my experience of salvation too!" So how do you pretend there is some difference between the Bible and the doctrines of grace from the born again reformed camp?

I'm not advocating experience over scripture, but I am saying that they coincide and there is no need to be skeptical of experiences like that, unless they are blatantly obviously not salvific in content or fruit.

I am not clear on all of what you wrote above, but I agree with your proposition. My experience when and how the Lord rescued me is exactly as I came to believe later on.

 

[Alive]

This is my testimony:

I am the way, the truth and the life and none can come to the Father but by me.

That is the first scripture I heard resound in my heart. I was 18 years old and a seeker. I was studying eastern religions and such things. One day while standing outside waiting for a ride, I found myself looking up to heaven and crying out--"God, whoever you are, I want to be aligned with truth".
A couple minutes later a guy I knew from our HS came walking down the sidewalk toward me. He invited me over the next night to play guitars and sing songs. I did to find out it was a bible study--a bunch of Jesus Freaks. LOL
John was my friend's name--he read the above scripture and I heard the Lord speak to me as audible and clear as can be--"I am the Truth". He did not say, one of the truths.

Before the Father placed me into Christ as a free gift by His Grace---I was like every other sinner member of Adam's fallen race of men.
This is a fact of history. There was nothing in me of righteousness.
In one moment, Christ spoke to me and said, "I am the Truth". In that moment, He put faith in my heart to believe Him.
This too, is a fact of history. It happened.

Miraculously, in that same moment, the Father placed me 'into' Christ and at that moment everything that the Father accomplished 'In Christ' on the cross, the resurrection and the ascension became true of and for me, as well.
He relocated me from the 1st Adam to the 2nd Adam. How could I possibly have accomplished this on my own?

John 1:13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

That moment was my Damascus. Every one born from above had the same experience. Not necessarily in the same manner, but behind the curtain of our perceptions--the same.

 

[ReverendRV]

Arminius is much closer to todays calvinist then he is to todays arminian. Think about that one for a moment.

I get it...

I won't Cross the fence and become Arminian; but I could do it and be happy. If I did Cross. the fence, I would be so Conservative; people would think I'm a Calvinist...

I just won't cross the fence because of the Positive reasons to be a 5-Point Calvinist...

 

[civic]

I get it...

I won't Cross the fence and become Arminian; but I could do it and be happy. If I did Cross. the fence, I would be so Conservative; people would think I'm a Calvinist...

I just won't cross the fence because of the Positive reasons to be a 5-Point Calvinist...

I get it brother

 

[ReverendRV]

Arminius is much closer to todays calvinist then he is to todays arminian. Think about that one for a moment.

Travelah might call Arminus a Neo Calvinist...

I'm sure he wouldn't call him that...

 

[KatarinaVonBora]

Okay, yeah I picked up on that this site is actually run by calvinists. I may not stick around here. But I have encountered it alot in other forums.. where someone will talk of someone caught up in sin.. and then a bunch of calvinists come down on them with 'never saved in the first place' lines.

If someone is not saved by works at all at salvation.. then works after salvation shouldn't be the measure of someone's eternal state. The measure would be if they believed Jesus is God, that He died and rose again and believed the were given eternal life by that. Not if they were faithfully going to church or sharing their faith etc..


There will be fruit from being saved. That doesn't mean they will continual faithfully to the end.

I'l' try some other topics.

Perseverance of the Saints from the scriptures.

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning (James 1:17).


But, God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life (Romans 5:8-10).


And, this is the promise that He hath promised us, even eternal life (1 John 2:25).


And, for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance (Hebrews 9:15).


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life” (John 6:47).


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24).


“Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:45-46).


That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:15-16).


Then said Jesus unto the twelve, “Will ye also go away?” Then Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life” (John 6:67-68).


These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:1-3).


Forasmuch as ye know thed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation m received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God (1 Peter 1:18-21).


I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever; nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past (Ecclesiastes 3:14-15).


And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose (Romans 8:28).


“For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? If a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And, if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish” (Matthew 18:11-14).


“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And, I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one” (John 10:27-30).


“And, this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day” (John 6:39).


“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition [Judas]; that the scripture might be fulfilled” (John 17:12).

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not (1 John 5:18).


“But, if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But, when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils” (Luke 11:20-22).


Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that in you, than he that is in the world
(1 John 4:4).


There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it (1 Corinthians 10:13).



“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect” (Matthew 24:24).



They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us (1 John 2:19).


Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:2-6).



And, the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen (2 Timothy 4:18).


Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen (Jude 24-25).


The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD ; and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand. I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread. He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed (Psalm 37:23-26).


And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).


“Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not” (Luke 22:31).

It seems the Bible contradicts your view.

 

[Carbon]

I get it...

I won't Cross the fence and become Arminian; but I could do it and be happy. If I did Cross. the fence, I would be so Conservative; people would think I'm a Calvinist...

I just won't cross the fence because of the Positive reasons to be a 5-Point Calvinist...

Ha, I would cross the fence in a heartbeat if I found Arminianism to be the truth. I spent 20+ years as an Arminian and I loved the Lord as one, but I have been much more humbled knowing God as a reformed believer. How mighty He is, in my life and all things are just unexplainably awesome and humbling. If I found Arminianism to be true, I know I could not resist, nor would I want to. I'm just a stupid man who stands amazed by our Lord.

MOD note. No stupid man found!

 

[360watt]

Perseverance of the Saints from the scriptures.

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning (James 1:17).


But, God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life (Romans 5:8-10).


And, this is the promise that He hath promised us, even eternal life (1 John 2:25).


And, for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance (Hebrews 9:15).


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life” (John 6:47).


“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life” (John 5:24).


“Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal” (Matthew 25:45-46).


That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (John 3:15-16).


Then said Jesus unto the twelve, “Will ye also go away?” Then Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life” (John 6:67-68).


These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent” (John 17:1-3).


Forasmuch as ye know thed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation m received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God (1 Peter 1:18-21).


I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be forever; nothing can be put to it, nor anything taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him. That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been; and God requireth that which is past (Ecclesiastes 3:14-15).


And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose (Romans 8:28).


“For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. How think ye? If a man have a hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray? And, if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish” (Matthew 18:11-14).


“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And, I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. I and my Father are one” (John 10:27-30).


“And, this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day” (John 6:39).


“While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition [Judas]; that the scripture might be fulfilled” (John 17:12).

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not (1 John 5:18).


“But, if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But, when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils” (Luke 11:20-22).


Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that in you, than he that is in the world
(1 John 4:4).


There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it (1 Corinthians 10:13).



“For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect” (Matthew 24:24).



They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us (1 John 2:19).


Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:2-6).



And, the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen (2 Timothy 4:18).


Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen (Jude 24-25).


The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD ; and he delighteth in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholdeth him with his hand. I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread. He is ever merciful, and lendeth; and his seed is blessed (Psalm 37:23-26).


And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).


“Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat; but I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not” (Luke 22:31).

It seems the Bible contradicts your view.

I agree with eternal security. But tieing any kind of behaviour to being given salvation to start with is not biblical.

Salvation and service are not tied to eachother

 

[360watt]

You continue to conflate evidence of conversion with intitial salvation and act as if Calvinists or so-called "Lordship Salvationists" teach works salvation, or merited salvation.

No one here, no Calvinist at least, teaches what you assert. It appears you don't care that you conflate these things in order to repeat the error.

You're the only person making said claim. No Calvinist here teaches this, and so-called Lordship Salvation doesn't teach it either, you're mistaken.

You struggle here, and with prescriptive and descriptive texts most likely in addition.

Would you please drop your straw man argument? That is exactly what it is you're doing, then maybe you'd listen to reason.

Thank you!

Okay.. I will first explain what I mean.

If a believer definite WILL persevere to the end, then behaviour is tied to salvation. Works become the test of whether some one is converted rather than if they have believed in Jesus as God, that He died and rose again, and that by believing in Him you have eternal life.

End. I will post on something else . Blessings

 

[Alive]

Okay.. I will first explain what I mean.

If a believer definite WILL persevere to the end, then behaviour is tied to salvation. Works become the test of whether some one is converted rather than if they have believed in Jesus as God, that He died and rose again, and that by believing in Him you have eternal life.

End. I will post on something else . Blessings

Could it be helpful to think of works and fruit as simply evidence of the New Life?

 

[civic]

Could it be helpful to think of works and fruit as simply evidence of the New Life?

Yes good works and walking in them as per Eph 2:10 is synonymous with walking in the spirit which produces the fruit of the spirit. Genuine faith produces good works , the fruit of the spirit . It’s a by product of a living and abiding faith . God manufactures this in believers when we yield and submit to Him in obedience . We cannot produce the works or fruit that comes from the Holy Spirit . But as believers we can grieve the Holy Spirit and not be fruitful and operate in the flesh. Those “ works “ will be burned up.

 

[Alive]

Yes good works and walking in them as per Eph 2:10 is synonymous with walking in the spirit which produces the fruit of the spirit. Genuine faith produces good works , the fruit of the spirit . It’s a by product of a living and abiding faith .

It is written somewhere--"by their fruit, ye shall know them". I like that "ye" part. Sounds spiritual.

 

[Alive]

Rom. 4:4 (NAS20S) Now to the one who works, the wages are not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Eph. 2:8 (NAS20S) For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[ezra]

Why is it so difficult for Arminians, (semi-pelagians and other free will believers) to accept reformed theology? Why are they so much against Calvinism? And actively against it?

let me ask in return why is so hard to accept free will. its of no concern of mine who is Calvinist. but my dealings with them in forum they tell me how wrong i am

 

[Carbon]

let me ask in return why is so hard to accept free will. its of no concern of mine who is Calvinist. but my dealings with them in forum they tell me how wrong i am

That's a good question.
So, why so much against free will?

I'm not against free will. I believe we have free will according to our nature.

 

[ReverendRV]

let me ask in return why is so hard to accept free will. its of no concern of mine who is Calvinist. but my dealings with them in forum they tell me how wrong i am

It's %100 Free Will that Calvinists are against...

 

[Carbon]

It's %100 Free Will that Calvinists are against...

Well, I'd say more like free will in salvation. Before regeneration, I believe man will freely choose against Christ. Because he is of the natural man. Therefore he cannot choose Christ, nor does he have a desire to.

After regeneration, the new man freely chooses Christ. He is not forced but freely chooses.