Why so much against Calvinism?

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Yes. The frustrating part of it is that the people that make that accusation seem stubbornly blind to the fallaciousness of their position, even if corrected. It isn't an argument based on reality but on a speculative theory or philosophy that holds no water.

I think investment ( time spent promoting ) and "face" ( pride for those who have a following ) are major components in that stubbornness. It's also natural to not want to be wrong ( again pride but very personal ). Just like any other endeavor we hoomans make idols of ourselves simply by breathing and it really does take a move of God too shift us. And *man* it hurts.

 

[PeterJens]

Well, your position is just that, a personal and subjective problem that is non sequitur with regard to the word of God and what is revealed therein.

It is glaringly apparent God sent His Son to die for His people and save them from their sins, and that each and everyone will come to Him; Matthew 1:21; John 6:37ff.

We preach because we are told to preach and make disciples, Matthew 28:18ff.

Lastly, we know that God uses secondary causes to accomplish His purpose.

Instead of leaning on your personal opinion and trouble with what God has revealed, walk by faith instead.

However you interpret scripture, of course Jesus came to die for the sin of mankind, but what that means is not just a transactional action.
If one finds oneself just talking theology with a level heart, something is wrong.

I was having a conversation with family and one member talked about end of life with pneumonia, as if this was just factual, when this is happening to a friend at this time, which involves grieving and pain. Some are aware of the difference, some not. Blessed are those that mourn for they will be comforted.

I have shared similar things with believers and some do not know what I am talking about. So I ask a deeper question, is love alive in them?
The apostles faced believers who were happy to say to other believers, "God bless you" knowing they could help a real need but doing nothing.
Bluntly they said such a reaction expresses a lack of Gods love in their hearts.

And those who say this is just subjective are unfortunately declaring their place and their hearts. God bless you

 

[360watt]

This topic I posted elsewhere. And wanted to post it here as well. Because I am curious about everyone's thoughts.

Why is it so difficult for Arminians, (semi-pelagians and other free will believers) to accept reformed theology? Why are they so much against Calvinism? And actively against it?

I’m genuinely curious why.

Free willers, synergists, or whatever you prefer? Why?

Calvinists, what do you think are the reasons? Why?

Primarily because all the verses about believing on the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life get made to be not about conversion. Someone who is converted according to calvinism, was born again before belief. That's got zip zero nadda to do with scripture.

The secondary problem is Lordship salvation.. where someone who is converted.. according to calvinism.. WILL be faithful to the end.

The third is having a pre set group chosen by God who will be converted.

This is messing with biblical predestination about the believer having a pre set place in heaven after they believe.

It's also messing with the pre set institution of God's churches, He set up for believers to join.

They preach eternal security, which is completely biblical.. but then say only the continuously faithful are saved. It's 'back loading' works into salvation.

Like with Arminianism, they mix works into getting saved. That's not biblical. Works have zip, zero, nadda to do with initial conversion.

Initial conversion is believing Jesus is God, that He died and rose again, and that by believing in Him you have eternal life. Full stop. John 3:16, 5:24, 10:28, Romans 10:9-10, Ephesians 2, 8-9.

Neither calvinism, nor arminianism.

 

[Carbon]

Primarily because all the verses about believing on the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life get made to be not about conversion. Someone who is converted according to calvinism, was born again before belief. That's got zip zero nadda to do with scripture.

That’s my belief. John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

The secondary problem is Lordship salvation.. where someone who is converted.. according to calvinism.. WILL be faithful to the end.

True conversion? Yes. Perseverance of the saints.

The third is having a pre set group chosen by God who will be converted.

God’s business.

This is messing with biblical predestination about the believer having a pre set place in heaven after they believe.

It’s not presented in that way.

It's also messing with the pre set institution of God's churches, He set up for believers to join.

Never heard such a thing.
Though I would say there are churches that both Arminians and Calvinists shouldn’t attend.

They preach eternal security, which is completely biblical.. but then say only the continuously faithful are saved. It's 'back loading' works into salvation.

The elect are eternally secure.

Like with Arminianism, they mix works into getting saved. That's not biblical. Works have zip, zero, nadda to do with initial conversion.

Calvinism does not mix works with being saved. If you disagree please provide proof or retract.

Initial conversion is believing Jesus is God, that He died and rose again, and that by believing in Him you have eternal life. Full stop. John 3:16, 5:24, 10:28, Romans 10:9-10, Ephesians 2, 8-9.

Neither calvinism, nor arminianism.

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 1 John 5:1.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Primarily because all the verses about believing on the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life get made to be not about conversion. Someone who is converted according to calvinism, was born again before belief. That's got zip zero nadda to do with scripture.

The secondary problem is Lordship salvation.. where someone who is converted.. according to calvinism.. WILL be faithful to the end.

The third is having a pre set group chosen by God who will be converted.

This is messing with biblical predestination about the believer having a pre set place in heaven after they believe.

It's also messing with the pre set institution of God's churches, He set up for believers to join.

They preach eternal security, which is completely biblical.. but then say only the continuously faithful are saved. It's 'back loading' works into salvation.

Like with Arminianism, they mix works into getting saved. That's not biblical. Works have zip, zero, nadda to do with initial conversion.

Initial conversion is believing Jesus is God, that He died and rose again, and that by believing in Him you have eternal life. Full stop. John 3:16, 5:24, 10:28, Romans 10:9-10, Ephesians 2, 8-9.

Neither calvinism, nor arminianism.

I am sorry, but I only read your first sentence and the rest I wouldn't venture, because the first part is just plain wrong. Please exegete the Bible in context and understand that "faith" is the gift of the Holy Spirit, it is not latent or potential in fallen human beings at all. There are numerous Bible verses that say salvation is a GIFT, and it comes through Faith, which is also a gift, because belief without supernatural intervention is not efficacious at all.

 

[ReverendRV]

This topic I posted elsewhere. And wanted to post it here as well. Because I am curious about everyone's thoughts.

Why is it so difficult for Arminians, (semi-pelagians and other free will believers) to accept reformed theology? Why are they so much against Calvinism? And actively against it?

I’m genuinely curious why.

Free willers, synergists, or whatever you prefer? Why?

Calvinists, what do you think are the reasons? Why?

In a way, a Christian who is actively against Calvinism (IE Professor Flowers); bears something in common with a New Atheist. Atheism and New Atheism are different in that Atheism lets a dead dog lie. A New Atheist doesn't let a dead dog lie. To an Atheist, Theism is a dead dog they see in the road and drive around it. To the New Atheist, Theism is a dead dog they see in the road; and they drive over it, back up and drive over it again. We could say the Difference between Atheism and New Atheism, is that Atheism beats a Straw Man; but a New Atheist beats a Dead Horse...

A Christian who is aggressive toward Calvinism and doesn't accept that it is in the Pale of Orthodoxy, could be calling Calvinists Atheists. In the Bible, the only time the word Atheos is used; it means you can be Religious, but in reality you are without God...

I know this is not Professor Flowers' position. But some Christians rail against Calvinism as if it were a Cult...

 

[civic]

In a way, a Christian who is actively against Calvinism (IE Professor Flowers); bears something in common with a New Atheist. Atheism and New Atheism are different in that Atheism lets a dead dog lie. A New Atheist doesn't let a dead dog lie. To an Atheist, Theism is a dead dog they see in the road and drive around it. To the New Atheist, Theism is a dead dog they see in the road; and they drive over it, back up and drive over it again. We could say the Difference between Atheism and New Atheism, is that Atheism beats a Straw Man; but a New Atheist beats a Dead Horse...

A Christian who is aggressive toward Calvinism and doesn't accept that it is in the Pale of Orthodoxy, could be calling Calvinists Atheists. In the Bible, the only time the word Atheos is used; it means you can be Religious, but in reality you are without God...

I know this is not Professor Flowers' position. But some Christians rail against Calvinism as if it were a Cult...

Could the opposite also be true just asking ? Could the person who rails against non calvinists have the same in common with the new atheist ?

 

[ReverendRV]

Could the opposite also be true just asking ? Could the person who rails against non calvinists have the same in common with the new atheist ?

Yes...

 

[Carbon]

Primarily because all the verses about believing on the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life get made to be not about conversion. Someone who is converted according to calvinism, was born again before belief. That's got zip zero nadda to do with scripture.

The secondary problem is Lordship salvation.. where someone who is converted.. according to calvinism.. WILL be faithful to the end.

The third is having a pre set group chosen by God who will be converted.

This is messing with biblical predestination about the believer having a pre set place in heaven after they believe.

It's also messing with the pre set institution of God's churches, He set up for believers to join.

They preach eternal security, which is completely biblical.. but then say only the continuously faithful are saved. It's 'back loading' works into salvation.

Like with Arminianism, they mix works into getting saved. That's not biblical. Works have zip, zero, nadda to do with initial conversion.

Initial conversion is believing Jesus is God, that He died and rose again, and that by believing in Him you have eternal life. Full stop. John 3:16, 5:24, 10:28, Romans 10:9-10, Ephesians 2, 8-9.

Neither calvinism, nor arminianism.

And thank you for your honesty.

 

[360watt]

I am sorry, but I only read your first sentence and the rest I wouldn't venture, because the first part is just plain wrong. Please exegete the Bible in context and understand that "faith" is the gift of the Holy Spirit, it is not latent or potential in fallen human beings at all. There are numerous Bible verses that say salvation is a GIFT, and it comes through Faith, which is also a gift, because belief without supernatural intervention is not efficacious at all.

Thanks for the reply,

It's clear in scripture God draws a sinner to believe in Him, so without this drawing.. there would be no salvation. The believer has to be convicted first, then they can believe in Him. But that doesn't mean God is going to draw them and save them regardless of whether they choose to believe in Him or not. So I agree that God has to draw a sinner to Him for them to believe. They aren't using their own fallen nature to 'bring God to them'.. but calling to God out of conviction on their soul. 'God be merciful to me, a sinner'

 

[360watt]

That’s my belief. John 3:3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”



True conversion? Yes. Perseverance of the saints.

God’s business.

It’s not presented in that way.

Never heard such a thing.
Though I would say there are churches that both Arminians and Calvinists shouldn’t attend.

The elect are eternally secure.

Calvinism does not mix works with being saved. If you disagree please provide proof or retract.

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him. 1 John 5:1.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

Okay, so if we say that a believer will endure to the end.. then that is saying that someone who believes in Jesus genuinely.. but then struggles with their faith.. was 'never saved in the first place'. That is the line that so many calvinists bring out with someone who talks about a wayward believer. That is the 'back loading' of works.

That is tying words to eternal life. It's not saying you can lose eternal life... but only the continuously faithful are the ones who are eternally secure. That's plain works based salvation.

Plus the verse 'he who endureth to the end will be saved' is not a verse about eternal life. It's deliverance from trials and tribulations during end times. It's not about eternal salvation.

Same goes for James 2- 'faith without works is dead'.. the subject of James 2 is not eternal salvation.. but the things someone who already has faith does for it be an alive faith. Abraham-- was converted far earlier than when he offered up his son Isaac.

Rahab-- hiding those people-- she had faith to begin with to do that act.

Their saving acts-- were justified as right acts before God.. but had no bearing on their eternal life.

In regards to God's churches being pre-set for believers to join.. that is what Jesus did with His disciples as the first church.. which led to other churches being planted through the disciples and then the apostles --with authority being given them by Jesus. This system of churches was pre-planned, pre-set by God for believers to grow in.

Jesus and His disciples-- first church.. Jerusalem.. next.. then Antioch, Ephesus, Corinth etc.. God set this system of churches for believers to join.

Now in saying this-- I don't say calvinists or armenianists are unsaved. Because many-- probably the majority still believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. So I can't judge any body's soul. That's God's business.

The problem though.. is the reverse is true with many calvinists.. many WILL say you are unsaved.. even if you are a professing christian. They DO tie works to eternal life. It's a plain fact.

 

[360watt]

We get the "pre set group" from Scripture; John 6:37ff; Ephesians 1:4ff &c.

Your comment about "pre set instituion of God's churches" is totally non sequitur.

No, it's not. You are misunderstanding.

You've erected a straw man.

You're making the common mistake of conflating works with evidence of conversion. So-called Lordship salvation is the latter, not the former.

You are incorrect in saying "they mixed works into getting saved." That's another subject altogether -- "getting saved."

We are talking about professing believers, not "getting saved" thus it is concerning evidence of true conversion. You're mixing the two together and arriving at error by erecting a straw man.

A true convert-- a believer .. will have fruit from being saved. But they may not 'endure to the end' in their faith. That does not mean they were 'never saved in the first place'. God is going to discipline and rebuke, bring a believer back to Him if they struggle.. but that doesn't mean there are no believers who are wayward.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Thanks for the reply,

It's clear in scripture God draws a sinner to believe in Him, so without this drawing.. there would be no salvation. The believer has to be convicted first, then they can believe in Him. But that doesn't mean God is going to draw them and save them regardless of whether they choose to believe in Him or not. So I agree that God has to draw a sinner to Him for them to believe. They aren't using their own fallen nature to 'bring God to them'.. but calling to God out of conviction on their soul. 'God be merciful to me, a sinner'

Hang on a minute. You said, "The believer has to be convicted first, then they can believe in Him". If this is true, and you add your own faith to it contrary to the Bible saying that Faith is the supernatural gift of God, then you don't need God to be saved at all, because your salvation depends upon you and not God. And no theology says that except a type of Christianity that ignores predestination as a word in the Bible.

 

[Carbon]

Okay, so if we say that a believer will endure to the end.. then that is saying that someone who believes in Jesus genuinely.. but then struggles with their faith.. was 'never saved in the first place'. That is the line that so many calvinists bring out with someone who talks about a wayward believer. That is the 'back loading' of works.

Believers will struggle with sin until they are glorified, we may be born anew but the law of sin remains. Those who walk away and never return are those who were never part in the first place. But only God knows the heart.

That is tying words to eternal life. It's not saying you can lose eternal life... but only the continuously faithful are the ones who are eternally secure. That's plain works based salvation.

I don't know why you would have an issue with believing the saved will remain? It has nothing to do with works salvation.

Plus the verse 'he who endureth to the end will be saved' is not a verse about eternal life. It's deliverance from trials and tribulations during end times. It's not about eternal salvation.

Which verse?

Same goes for James 2- 'faith without works is dead'.. the subject of James 2 is not eternal salvation..

It's about a lively faith, which produces good works. Good works are a fruit of the Spirit.

but the things someone who already has faith does for it be an alive faith. Abraham-- was converted far earlier than when he offered up his son Isaac.

Yes, proved by his believing God. Again, everyone who believes has been born again. So, if you are believing, it's proof God has done His work in you.

Rahab-- hiding those people-- she had faith to begin with to do that act.

Their saving acts-- were justified as right acts before God.. but had no bearing on their eternal life.

...............

In regards to God's churches being pre-set for believers to join.. that is what Jesus did with His disciples as the first church.. which led to other churches being planted through the disciples and then the apostles --with authority being given them by Jesus. This system of churches was pre-planned, pre-set by God for believers to grow in.

Okay.

Jesus and His disciples-- first church.. Jerusalem.. next.. then Antioch, Ephesus, Corinth etc.. God set this system of churches for believers to join.

Okay

Now in saying this-- I don't say calvinists or armenianists are unsaved. Because many-- probably the majority still believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. So I can't judge any body's soul. That's God's business.

I agree.

The problem though.. is the reverse is true with many calvinists.. many WILL say you are unsaved.. even if you are a professing christian.

I can't help but wonder who you know that is a Calvinist that would say such, or maybe you heard them wrong? Why would they say such, because you're not a Calvinist? Is that what you think?
I'm a 5-point Calvinist and I have no doubt I have synergist brothers and sisters in Christ. I also believe you are wrong and probably misunderstang something about Calvinists, because I highly doubt a mature Christian (Calvinist) would say you're not saved if you're not a Calvinist.

They DO tie works to eternal life. It's a plain fact.

No, not true again. I'd ask you to defend that thought.

Matter of fact, there are Calvinists besides myself here. Ask..

 

[Carbon]

A true convert-- a believer .. will have fruit from being saved. But they may not 'endure to the end' in their faith. That does not mean they were 'never saved in the first place'. God is going to discipline and rebuke, bring a believer back to Him if they struggle.. but that doesn't mean there are no believers who are wayward.

I think you believe a believer can lose their salvation. Is this the issue?

If you read the parable of the soils, you may notice that all the soils, but the prepared soil, produce fruit quickly. Then die off. Which proves they were never saved in the first place. Are you interested in going through Hebrews 6:4-6?


I'll start a thread.

 

[jeremiah1five]

This topic I posted elsewhere. And wanted to post it here as well. Because I am curious about everyone's thoughts.

Why is it so difficult for Arminians, (semi-pelagians and other free will believers) to accept reformed theology? Why are they so much against Calvinism? And actively against it?

I’m genuinely curious why.

Free willers, synergists, or whatever you prefer? Why?

Calvinists, what do you think are the reasons? Why?

Paul said:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Rom. 1:18–19.

THEY KNOW the truth deep down in their conscience but hate God still.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Rom. 1:21–23.

"Made like to corruptible man..." is another way of saying "I am God and I will determine the way in which God shall save me."

BUT:

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh:
The Lord shall have them in derision.
Ps 2:4.

 

[Carbon]

Paul said:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. Rom. 1:18–19.

THEY KNOW the truth deep down in their conscience but hate God still.

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Rom. 1:21–23.

"Made like to corruptible man..." is another way of saying "I am God and I will determine the way in which God shall save me."

BUT:

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh:
The Lord shall have them in derision.
Ps 2:4.

I think I missed your point.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I think I missed your point.

YOU SAID: Why is it so difficult for Arminians, (semi-pelagians and other free will believers) to accept reformed theology? Why are they so much against Calvinism? And actively against it?

RESPONSE: People are uncomfortable they have no control over salvation. But it's more than just being uncomfortable not having control, their pride in their own sufficiency blinds them to the truth of God and His plan of salvation. It is born from a deep-seated hatred for God.
And since they cannot touch God to harm Him they attack those who claim salvation is of the Lord in all its parts.
It will be the unconverted of Arminianism that will kill believers thinking they do God service in the Tribulation.
The Church will go through the Time of Jacobs Trouble with Israel.

 

[Carbon]

YOU SAID: Why is it so difficult for Arminians, (semi-pelagians and other free will believers) to accept reformed theology? Why are they so much against Calvinism? And actively against it?

RESPONSE: People are uncomfortable they have no control over salvation. But it's more than just being uncomfortable not having control, their pride in their own sufficiency blinds them to the truth of God and His plan of salvation. It is born from a deep-seated hatred for God.
And since they cannot touch God to harm Him they attack those who claim salvation is of the Lord in all its parts.
It will be the unconverted of Arminianism that will kill believers thinking they do God service in the Tribulation.
The Church will go through the Time of Jacobs Trouble with Israel.

Okay. I disagree there also. Mainly because I am not a premill. But thats for another thread.

Thanks for your reply.

 

[360watt]

I think you believe a believer can lose their salvation. Is this the issue?

If you read the parable of the soils, you may notice that all the soils, but the prepared soil, produce fruit quickly. Then die off. Which proves they were never saved in the first place. Are you interested in going through Hebrews 6:4-6?


I'll start a thread.

No.. a believer can't lose salvation. I'm not Armenian. And there are false converts. I agree with that. But carnal christians are a reality. Paul called himself chief of sinners. He knew he had a fleshly nature as well as being able to follow the Spirit.

There are wayward believers.. they exist.