The Church and the Body of Christ

[JIM]

I am curious to ask you. Please if you wouldn't mind, will you share your view of the Fall?

I reject entirely what so many refer to as "the fall". Adam (and Eve) disobeyed and they died at that instance in that sin. Each of us who have lived long enough have disobeyed and died in that instance in that sin. It is a "spiritual" death. The only "fall" is that of each of us, individually.

 

[JIM]

I beg to differ, Original Sin is clearly taught in Scripture. Read Romans 5:12-21. I will gladly love to debate this topic with you. BTW, if your view, where does Sin come from, and has ANYONE, other than Christ been found sinless before God. If not, how come? So, you agree with Pelagius?​

I have never really studied Pelagius. Seriously, all I really know about Pelagius is what Calvinists complain about him.

If you deny the Imputation of Adam's Sin to His Progeny (Descendants), then you also deny the Imputation of Christ's Righteousness, correct?​

Incorrect.

 

[JIM]

I believe it's a obvious question that needs an answer, yes? You do believe that sinners can fulfill God's commandments?​

They can but they don't.

My answer is no. So, are God's commandments unfair to judge and convict sinners?​

If your answer is no, then yes God would be unjust to condemn one who did not have the ability to obey.

Does God need to lower His standard of Holiness to allow sinners to enter heaven? BTW, a question can answer a question.​

No He does not need to lower His standard of Holiness. I think you do not understand God's requirements. You are wrapped up and confused by your false concept of "the fall".

 

[Arial]

Actually, no. My question was easily answered with a "yes" or a "no". But you obviously read into the question something more.

So is the question "Have you stopped beating your wife?" Read your question again.

 

[Arial]

And we are off the the races again! Bye, bye, to the second OP trying to discuss a specific thing, And hello again to @JIM's one and only topic.

 

[JIM]

I beg to differ, Original Sin is clearly taught in Scripture. Read Romans 5:12-21. I will gladly love to debate this topic with you. BTW, if your view, where does Sin come from, and has ANYONE, other than Christ been found sinless before God. If not, how come? So, you agree with Pelagius? If you deny the Imputation of Adam's Sin to His Progeny (Descendants), then you also deny the Imputation of Christ's Righteousness, correct?​

And I beg to differ, Original Sin is not taught in scripture. Not in Romans 5:12-21 or any place else.

 

[Arial]

They can but they don't.

If your answer is no, then yes God would be unjust to condemn one who did not have the ability to obey.

No He does not need to lower His standard of Holiness. I think you do not understand God's requirements. You are wrapped up and confused by your false concept of "the fall".

Who is God? Not what is He. Who is He?

 

[JIM]

Who is God? Not what is He. Who is He?.

Who is God? What is He like? What are His attributes or characteristics? Asking this question is the same as asking about the essence of God, because there is no distinction between His essence and His attributes. God is His attributes. We cannot strip away all the attributes of God and wind up with some neutral, attributeless substance. In fact, we cannot take away even one of the divine attributes and still be talking about the true God. For example, a “god” who is not omnipotent or omniscient or gracious is not God at all.

We know much about Him from the general revelation present in the natural world, but most of our knowledge of Him comes from Scripture. Therein we learn the details of His nature, His works, and His will.

But again, I think this begins to wander even further from the OP.

 

[Arial]

Who is God? What is He like? What are His attributes or characteristics? Asking this question is the same as asking about the essence of God, because there is no distinction between His essence and His attributes. God is His attributes. We cannot strip away all the attributes of God and wind up with some neutral, attributeless substance. In fact, we cannot take away even one of the divine attributes and still be talking about the true God. For example, a “god” who is not omnipotent or omniscient or gracious is not God at all.

We know much about Him from the general revelation present in the natural world, but most of our knowledge of Him comes from Scripture. Therein we learn the details of His nature, His works, and His will.

But again, I think this begins to wander even further from the OP.

So in other words you can't answer the question so you come up with reasons why you can't. Ask me the question and see if I can answer it.

 

[Arial]

And all of this is getting off the track of the OP once again. But you both initiated it. If you want to continue in this discussion, I suggest to start a new topic.

I said the word,in a post that explained why you have the attitude towards God that you have, if say, per chance, he actually commands what we cannot do, but I did not initiate that conversation. That has been shown to you. LA simply did what I said would happen and is not to be blamed for it, following your (yours not mine) whole piece on OS. Start a new topic? I surely hope by that you mean new thread. To which I will remind you that I started this one after you completely wrecked the first one I started to discuss the topic of the OP. Whose to say you won't do it again.

 

[Ladodgers6]

I reject entirely what so many refer to as "the fall". Adam (and Eve) disobeyed and they died at that instance in that sin. Each of us who have lived long enough have disobeyed and died in that instance in that sin. It is a "spiritual" death. The only "fall" is that of each of us, individually.

It's called the "Fall", because of where Adam was with God in the Garden Temple. Walking and talking with God without a mediator. Adam along with us are made in the image of God. Adam was appointed or commanded by God to be fruitful and multiply the earth; fill the earth with the image of God. Once Adam disobeyed and breached the Covenant of Works ratified with God. Judgement of God not only fell upon Adam's head but his whole progeny in solidarity as the representative head of mankind. Just like Christ is the representative of His people and church.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Notice Paul makes a juxtaposition between the two Adams here, in reference to ONE ACT of either disobedience or obedience. And our condemnation is based on the One Act of Disobedience of Adam.​

 

[Arial]

It's called the "Fall", because of where Adam was with God in the Garden Temple. Walking and talking with God without a mediator. Adam along with us are made in the image of God. Adam was appointed or commanded by God to be fruitful and multiply the earth; fill the earth with the image of God. Once Adam disobeyed and breached the Covenant of Works ratified with God. Judgement of God not only fell upon Adam's head but his whole progeny in solidarity as the representative head of mankind. Just like Christ is the representative of His people and church.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Notice Paul makes a juxtaposition between the two Adams here, in reference to ONE ACT of either disobedience or obedience. And our condemnation is based on the One Act of Disobedience of Adam.​

LA this thread is not for a discussion on OS or the fall. JIM took it there as he does almost every thread he is in, and he has been told repeatedly to stop doing that. There are several right now that this one, if I let it get out of hand in that way, would just be a repeat of. I had to start this one because of another thread I started on the same subject got wrecked by him completely changing it into a thread about Calvinism, total depravity, spiritual death.

I realize most threads go off track eventually, and I wouldn't even mind if at least the divergence was somewhat related. But what JIM was about to accomplish and has in countless threads, would cause my OP point to be completely lost, never to have lived at all. I finally had to give him a time out for a couple of days, just to keep him quiet---as he seems to never learn.

I might suggest when he comes back if you want to take your shot with reason, logic and Scripture at exorcising the Pelagian out of him to start a thread in which the subject of OS and the fall are clearly noted in the title. He will meet you there I am sure.

 

[Ladodgers6]

No one sins by necessity.

I beg to differ. Here's more scripture.

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
​

What do you think Christ is redeeming people from?

There is no pre- or post-lapsarianism, if by lapsarianism you mean the fall of mankind due to Adam's sin. Any fall is the fall of the individual when he, just like Adam, commits his first sin.

Adam (and his one act of disobedience) didn't condemn anyone. God didn't given any such power to him.

I answered this already in your other post, but, no problem, I will post the scripture that states that Adam's One Act of Disobedience brought condemnation on all men.

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people

So, please, clarify because I am thinking you are placing people in a state of either innocence or good. Show me in Scripture where this is the case?

Psalm 51:​

5Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
and in sin did my mother conceive me.

 

[Ladodgers6]

They can but they don't.

How can sinner who are already under the curse of the Law, fulfill the Law with perfect obedience without a single blemish of sin on their record? Only people who fulfill the Law with perfect obedience without a record will gain entry.

If your answer is no, then yes God would be unjust to condemn one who did not have the ability to obey.

Fault does not lie with God, but the sinner. BTW, as I have already pointed out, sinners are already condemned before God, which is why they need a Redeemer. To which the obvious is stated, to redeem sinners from what? If sinners could obey, and fulfill God's law, then why did Christ have to die? The walking dead follow the prince of air as sons of disobedience. They do his will, which is passions of the flesh and mind. This is how the image of God is mocked and attempt to destroy it by Satan.​

No He does not need to lower His standard of Holiness. I think you do not understand God's requirements. You are wrapped up and confused by your false concept of "the fall".

Oh, then I can be as evil as I want, and still enter heaven. Who needs to be obedient then? Live it up!

 

[Ladodgers6]

LA this thread is not for a discussion on OS or the fall. JIM took it there as he does almost every thread he is in, and he has been told repeatedly to stop doing that. There are several right now that this one, if I let it get out of hand in that way, would just be a repeat of. I had to start this one because of another thread I started on the same subject got wrecked by him completely changing it into a thread about Calvinism, total depravity, spiritual death.

I realize most threads go off track eventually, and I wouldn't even mind if at least the divergence was somewhat related. But what JIM was about to accomplish and has in countless threads, would cause my OP point to be completely lost, never to have lived at all. I finally had to give him a time out for a couple of days, just to keep him quiet---as he seems to never learn.

I might suggest when he comes back if you want to take your shot with reason, logic and Scripture at exorcising the Pelagian out of him to start a thread in which the subject of OS and the fall are clearly noted in the title. He will meet you there I am sure.

Sorry, I encourage him to discuss OS. That's my fault. I'll start a thread on OS or whatever he wants to debate, when he comes back.

 

[Ladodgers6]

And I beg to differ, Original Sin is not taught in scripture. Not in Romans 5:12-21 or any place else.

I suggest you read John Murray's little book, Imputation of Adam's Sin.

Romans 5:18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people

It's One Trespass that brought condemnation on all Adam's descendants (progeny) in solidarity. Disagreeing doesn't make your case.