Why so much against Calvinism?

[civic]

It's %100 Free Will that Calvinists are against...

Free will much like predestination needs to be defined so everyone is on the same page and not talking past one another . There are misconceptions about both doctrines .

 

[ReverendRV]

Free will much like predestination needs to be defined so everyone is on the same page and not talking past one another . There are misconceptions about both doctrines .

I have come across a new way to define it, that I think Christians should agree with...

Maybe even Professor Flowers...

 

[Alive]

I look at it this way...that since the fall what is called free will was limited. Limited by death and sin toward God. I often refer to it ---- "the unregererated's will is impotent 'Godward'.
This means it takes God by His Grace to step in and solve this problem.

 

[civic]

I have come across a new way to define it, that I think Christians should agree with...

Maybe even Professor Flowers...

I look forward to hearing it brother

 

[Carbon]

I look forward to hearing it brother

Me too.

 

[Alive]

I tend to look at things simply. Scripture teaches that we must be drawn by the Father to Christ and scripture teaches that we are in Christ of/by the Father. The Father places us into Christ.
So--in an instant--measured in a way only God can; we share the history of Christ in the Cross (death), the Resurrection (Life/Regenerated) and His Ascension (our life is hidden with Christ in God).
By Grace and through faith.
And because Christ Life cannot be killed--this is eternal.
My only slight difference with Tulip is that I believe that God makes it possible for us to persevere--that He actually makes sure of this on our behalf.

I hope this makes some sense.

 

[Carbon]

I tend to look at things simply. Scripture teaches that we must be drawn by the Father to Christ and scripture teaches that we are in Christ of/by the Father. The Father places us into Christ.
So--in an instant--measured in a way only God can; we share the history of Christ in the Cross (death), the Resurrection (Life/Regenerated) and His Ascension (our life is hidden with Christ in God).
By Grace and through faith.
And because Christ Life cannot be killed--this is eternal.
My only slight difference with Tulip is that I believe that God makes it possible for us to persevere--that He actually makes sure of this on our behalf.

I hope this makes some sense.

Interesting.

What scripture would you use to support that?
Just curious

 

[Carbon]

My only slight difference with Tulip is that I believe that God makes it possible for us to persevere--that He actually makes sure of this on our behalf.

How would you say He does this?
Thinking about it, my guess would be through sanctification. Which would make sense to me.

 

[Alive]

Interesting.

What scripture would you use to support that?
Just curious

Which part?

How would you say He does this?
Thinking about it, my guess would be through sanctification. Which would make sense to me.

Really I believe that through the entirety of scripture, but this is an very clear declarative statement of our Lord's.
John 15:5 (NAS20S) “I am the vine, you are the branches; the one who remains in Me, and I in him bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

I can do no thing. No some things or a few things, but no thing.

 

[Alive]

The same goes for our sanctification...we work together with Him, but it is His agency working in us that makes it possible.
Its all God--all the time--by Grace.

 

[ReverendRV]

I look forward to hearing it brother

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.4

The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith

www.the1689confession.com

I say it like this; we Confess that the Liberty of the Will is Established as a Secondary Cause, without God offering Violence to get his Way...

In Confessing this, what's not said speaks volumes. We do not Confess that the Liberty of the Will is Established as a Primary Causation...

Basically the Free Will Debate wants to Establish our Will is the Primary Cause in our lives. This makes us equal with God. I will Confess here and now, the Will is NOT Established as a Primary Cause. It is a Sin to want to be Like God...

 

[Carbon]

@Alive
But know I believe sanctification is monergistic.
So, it would tie in with your belief here. I think.

Considering the work of regeneration done by God, it would seem sanctification is an easy task by God. As Motives and exhortations to a life of holiness now find a ready response in the heart, which is already the temple of the Holy Spirit. The incorruptible seed sown there, germinates into a plant, and blossoms and ripens into the fruits of holiness. Considering this, sanctification process and the perseverance of the saints, I think it compliments each other.

 

[Alive]

Also--didn't Jesus set the pattern earlier?
John 5:30 (NAS20S) “ I can do nothing on My own. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of Him who sent Me.

 

[Carbon]

Really I believe that through the entirety of scripture,

Amen to that!

but this is an very clear declarative statement of our Lord's.
John 15:5 (NAS20S) “I am the vine, you are the branches; the one who remains in Me, and I in him bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

I can do no thing. No some things or a few things, but no thing.

Great point brother!

 

[Alive]

@Alive
But know I believe sanctification is monergistic.
So, it would tie in with your belief here. I think.

Considering the work of regeneration done by God, it would seem sanctification is an easy task by God. As Motives and exhortations to a life of holiness now find a ready response in the heart, which is already the temple of the Holy Spirit. The incorruptible seed sown there, germinates into a plant, and blossoms and ripens into the fruits of holiness. Considering this, sanctification process and the perseverance of the saints, I think it compliments each other.

See my post 122 above.

 

[Carbon]

The same goes for our sanctification...we work together with Him, but it is His agency working in us that makes it possible.
Its all God--all the time--by Grace.

I believe our beliefs are very similar.

If I understand you correctly. It's compared to John 15, the vine and branches. The only reason we go and bear fruit is because we are connected to the vine. It's the Spirit flowing through us, producing fruit. Since we are all individuals, we are part of it, not in working it out synergistically, but as its effect and fruit. We live a life of fruit because fruit is what the Spirit produces in and through us.

@civic @ReverendRV I believe this is what RC Sproul was teaching.
That's what I personally think anyway.

 

[Carbon]

Considering this, sanctification process and the perseverance of the saints, I think it compliments each other.

Because, how can God's work go wrong?

 

[Alive]

I believe our beliefs are very similar.

If I understand you correctly. It's compared to John 15, the vine and branches. The only reason we go and bear fruit is because we are connected to the vine. It's the Spirit flowing through us, producing fruit. Since we are all individuals, we are part of it, not in working it out synergistically, but as its effect and fruit. We live a life of fruit because fruit is what the Spirit produces in and through us.

@civic @ReverendRV I believe this is what RC was teaching.
That's what I personally think anyway.

Yup---I agree. These parables and comparisons are all talking about the same basic Truth and to me, that is Christ in us. I New Life and that Life has characteristics.
I have been holding onto something that I believe the Lord was showing me some months ago, but I want to be sure.
It regards what 'spirit' is and how I think it can be explained using of course scripture.
Maybe soon.

 

[ReverendRV]

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established;3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing His decree.4

The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith

www.the1689confession.com

I say it like this; we Confess that the Liberty of the Will is Established as a Secondary Cause, without God offering Violence to get his Way...

In Confessing this, what's not said speaks volumes. We do not Confess that the Liberty of the Will is Established as a Primary Causation...

Basically the Free Will Debate wants to Establish our Will is the Primary Cause in our lives. This makes us equal with God. I will Confess here and now, the Will is NOT Established as a Primary Cause. It is a Sin to want to be Like God...

So what would it look like if we could Establish what our Free Will looks like as a Primary Causation?

Man has...

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass.

Of God's Decree — The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith

Chapter 3

www.the1689confession.com

 

[David1701]

So what would it look like if we could Establish what Free Will looks like as a Primary Causation?

God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass.

Of God's Decree — The 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith

Chapter 3

www.the1689confession.com

That's "free will" in the sense that monergists use (free from external coercion); however, it's not free from God's nature, which means that it's not "libertarian free will"; in fact, there neither is, nor can be, any such thing as "libertarian free will".