Coming Against Reformed Theology

[ReverendRV]

The Magisterium of the Church

CCC 85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48

87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me",49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

Blessings Reverend!

Why did the Conclusion of the Council of Jerusalem, begin with Saint Peter but end with Saint James?

 

[Mr GLee]

The Magisterium of the Church

CCC 85 "The task of giving an authentic interpretation of the Word of God, whether in its written form or in the form of Tradition, has been entrusted to the living teaching office of the Church alone. Its authority in this matter is exercised in the name of Jesus Christ."47 This means that the task of interpretation has been entrusted to the bishops in communion with the successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome.

86 "Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith."48

87 Mindful of Christ's words to his apostles: "He who hears you, hears me",49 the faithful receive with docility the teachings and directives that their pastors give them in different forms.

Blessings Reverend!

I would offer..

Our Holy Father the invisible head Christ knew in advance when a prophet would die a majority of the unbelieving Jews as law of the fathers would revert back to the pagan foundation . . oral traditons of dying mankind, a succession of dying mankind from one generation to the next

The Lord set up a golden law to protect the integrity of sola scriptura.

When creating the six days. God used gold, the only word as a rudiment of this dying word that he did put his "good" seal of approval It represented His unseen approval as Eternal Spirit

Genesis 1:1i-12 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone

The Book Revaltion calls it the golden measure .the measure of faith., Faith as if it gold (Revelation 21) or hidden mana chapter 2:17 the unseen eternal things faith hid from natural unconverted mankind .

There in the Ark the covering of the secret things of the mysteries of God the hidden manna , The fatter Lovingly commanded Moses take the book of law (sola scriptura) and put it un the outside .the authroity of the mysteries inside . Calling Himself a God who hides himself from some

Deuteronomy 31:22-30 2. And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death? Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended.


Hebrews 9:3-5King James Version3 And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularl

 

[Arch Stanton]

Why did the Conclusion of the Council of Jerusalem, begin with Saint Peter but end with Saint James?

because St. James was due the honor as the Bishop of Jerusalem [his diocese].

 

[Arch Stanton]

The Lord set up a golden law to protect the integrity of sola scriptura.

There is no sola scriptura though.

 

[Mr GLee]

There is no sola scriptura though.

Where is the book of law (CCC) oral tradition of the dying fathers proves that ? Sola scriptura clearly teaches the oposite Brother in Christ .Show some proof?

 

[Arch Stanton]

Sola scriptura clearly teaches the opposite Brother in Christ. Show some proof?

That is what I am asking you for.... it is a relatively new concept.

 

[David1701]

That is what I am asking you for.... it is a relatively new concept.

Only Scripture is God-breathed - everything else is fallible commentary.

Scripture tells us to test everything; it also says that all Scripture is God-breathed; and that it is able to make the man of God complete, thoroughly furnished for all good works.

Every genuine believer in Jesus Christ has the Holy Spirit indwelling. He enables us to understand what we need to, in Scripture; and to test all teachings against Scripture. Anyone who puts his unqualified trust in the doctrine of teachers (RC or otherwise) is an idolater.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Only Scripture is God-breathed - everything else is fallible commentary.

Is it fallible commentary when Christ says 'he who hears you hears ME?

Is it fallible commentary that according to St. Paul the Church is the pillar of truth?

Is it fallible commentary that according to St. Paul the wisdom of God is made known through the Church?

 

[Mr GLee]

That is what I am asking you for.... it is a relatively new concept.

Two ways. #1 law of the fathers. Dying mankind, what the non venerable must call patron saints (3500) and rising .Paul a former sign and wonder seeker Treating Jesus like a circus seal (show me a miracle then I will believe). With their law oral traditons of dying they came aftr with a vengeance born again Paul they called all things written in the law prophets (Sola scriptura) a (heresy

Paul turned inspiration right side up coming down like rain. Rather than worshiping a legion of dead fathers ,

Paul worshiped Christ the Holy Father our invisible head After one manner, two is a crowd

Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Another is given with Moses to also protect the integrity of gospel( Sola scriptural )

 

[Arch Stanton]

Two ways. #1 law of the fathers. Dying mankind, what the non venerable must call patron saints (3500) and rising .Paul a former sign and wonder seeker Treating Jesus like a circus seal (show me a miracle then I will believe). With their law oral traditons of dying they came aftr with a vengeance born again Paul they called all things written in the law prophets (Sola scriptura) a (heresy

Paul turned inspiration right side up coming down like rain. Rather than worshiping a legion of dead fathers ,

Paul worshiped Christ the Holy Father our invisible head After one manner, two is a crowd

Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Another is given with Moses to also protect the integrity of gospel( Sola scriptural )

none of that says scripture alone or even faith alone

 

[David1701]

Is it fallible commentary when Christ says 'he who hears you hears ME?

Is it fallible commentary that according to St. Paul the Church is the pillar of truth?

Is it fallible commentary that according to St. Paul the wisdom of God is made known through the Church?

Those are God-breathed words of Scripture (the parts you've quoted in red). Perhaps you made a mistake, when you read my post, and didn't realise that I said that anything that is NOT Scripture is fallible commentary?

He who listened to one of the disciples, telling others what Jesus had told them (and that we now have in Scripture), was, in effect, listening to Jesus, because they were saying what he said.

The church (i.e. the body of believers in Jesus Christ) is the pillar and ground of the truth. In other words, we are to hold up the truth (which we have in the God-breathed Scriptures), support it, protect it and preach it.

The wisdom of God is made known through the body of Christ, when we proclaim it (as it is in Scripture) and live it, by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Those are God-breathed words of Scripture (the parts you've quoted in red). Perhaps you made a mistake, when you read my post, and didn't realise that I said that anything that is NOT Scripture is fallible commentary?

Yes, they are from scripture but what I am trying to say is that scripture is showing us the pillar of truth [The Church]; the scriptures are showing us that the wisdom of God is made known TO US through [The Church].... and The Church leaders [hierarchical] are the ones that Christ speaks through [He who hears you...]

 

[ReverendRV]

because St. James was due the honor as the Bishop of Jerusalem [his diocese].

What was Saint Peter's Diocese?

 

[David1701]

Yes, they are from scripture but what I am trying to say is that scripture is showing us the pillar of truth [The Church]; the scriptures are showing us that the wisdom of God is made known TO US through [The Church].... and The Church leaders [hierarchical] are the ones that Christ speaks through [He who hears you...]

Firstly, I've already answered the part about the wisdom of God being made known through the church (it was part of my post that you omitted).

"The wisdom of God is made known through the body of Christ, when we proclaim it (as it is in Scripture) and live it, by the Holy Spirit." - from my previous post.

Secondly, Christ can speak through anyone, it doesn't have to be a church leader. As an example, let's say that an RC bishop gets caught in a sin. One of his parishioners finds out, prays about it and is led to speak to him, quoting some relevant Scripture. That would be Christ speaking to the bishop, through a member of what you would call "the laity".

 

[Arch Stanton]

What was Saint Peter's Diocese?

Antioch and then he left for Rome.... but he also made his rounds as the leader to the whole Church...

Acts 9:31-32 The CHURCH THROUGHOUT all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria was at peace. It was being built up and walked in the fear of the Lord, and with the consolation of the holy Spirit it grew in numbers.

As PETER was passing THROUGH EVERY REGION, he went down to the holy ones living in Lydda.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Christ can speak through anyone, it doesn't have to be a church leader.

True

As an example, let's say that an RC bishop gets caught in a sin. One of his parishioners finds out, prays about it and is led to speak to him, quoting some relevant Scripture. That would be Christ speaking to the bishop, through a member of what you would call "the laity".

AMEN!

 

[David1701]

Antioch and then he left for Rome.... but he also made his rounds as the leader to the whole Church...

Acts 9:31-32 The CHURCH THROUGHOUT all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria was at peace. It was being built up and walked in the fear of the Lord, and with the consolation of the holy Spirit it grew in numbers.

As PETER was passing THROUGH EVERY REGION, he went down to the holy ones living in Lydda.

Peter was specifically the apostle to the Jews; whereas, Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that Peter had authority over the whole body of Christ (or even all the Jewish believers).

 

[Arch Stanton]

Peter was specifically the apostle to the Jews;

and the whole church...

1. Acts 9:31-32 The CHURCH THROUGHOUT all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria was at peace. It was being built up and walked in the fear of the Lord, and with the consolation of the holy Spirit it grew in numbers.

As PETER was passing THROUGH EVERY REGION, he went down to the holy ones living in Lydda.

2. feed my sheep [some or all?]

3. Acts 15 - “My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that THROUGH MY MOUTH the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe

4. Mt 28:19-20 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, TEACHING THEM to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you ALWAYS, until the END OF THE AGE.”

5. Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

 

[ReverendRV]

Antioch and then he left for Rome.... but he also made his rounds as the leader to the whole Church...

Acts 9:31-32 The CHURCH THROUGHOUT all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria was at peace. It was being built up and walked in the fear of the Lord, and with the consolation of the holy Spirit it grew in numbers.

As PETER was passing THROUGH EVERY REGION, he went down to the holy ones living in Lydda.

Why did Saint James clarify Saint Peter's Declaration?

 

[David1701]

and the whole church...

1. Acts 9:31-32 The CHURCH THROUGHOUT all Judea, Galilee, and Samaria was at peace. It was being built up and walked in the fear of the Lord, and with the consolation of the holy Spirit it grew in numbers.

As PETER was passing THROUGH EVERY REGION, he went down to the holy ones living in Lydda.

2. feed my sheep [some or all?]

3. Acts 15 - “My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that THROUGH MY MOUTH the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe

4. Mt 28:19-20 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, TEACHING THEM to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you ALWAYS, until the END OF THE AGE.”

5. Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

Peter was not sent exclusively to Jews, any more than Paul was sent exclusively to the Gentiles; but, their ministries were characterised by going to the Jews and Gentiles respectively. It's similar for the other apostles, and there is not a hint that any one of them had authority over the others.