Why do Calvinists debate?

[Carbon]

@Mercy_Shown

Ephesians chapter 2.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

 

[makesends]

Yes, only the Son can set us free and we will be free indeed!

Yes, as in, yes it is forcing that we all are encumbered with a sin nature?

If that is forcing for God to do that, (and he did), then what's wrong with God changing our heart, mind, will without first consulting us to find out if we want that????

 

[makesends]

The Bible says we are children and our abba abides in Heaven.

No doubt. It also says we are slaves, some of us children of the devil, and some of us children of God, slaves all.

 

[Carbon]

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44


And He was saying, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” John 6:65

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Yes, as in, yes it is forcing that we all are encumbered with a sin nature?

No, no one forced us to have a sinful nature. It is what we were born with, our natural state.

If that is forcing for God to do that, (and he did), then what's wrong with God changing our heart, mind, will without first consulting us to find out if we want that????

God did not give us a sinful nature.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

@Mercy_Shown

Ephesians chapter 2.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our wrongdoings, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the boundless riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

This does not mean that we cannot reject this wonderful gift. It does not say that we can't fall away. Jesus said in Matthew 24:12-13 "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved"

I suppose we could accuse Jesus of advocating self-salvation. But that aside, in order to wax cold, a thing must have been hot. Something cold cannot wax cold. These "many" at one time had possibly been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit, and tasted the goodness of the word of God. They had, in essence, been made alive, and that is why they loved, but they made a free-will choice to return to Egypt and its fleshpots.

So, being made alive and being saved by Grace does not mean Grace will save you. We are saved in the past, we are saved in the present, and we are being saved in the future.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

But the teaching is there throughout. Though it is not mentioned by name like the Trinity it is taught

It is simply grace throughout. It is never taught as anything else. Are you saying that the Bible parses grace into temporal grace and effectual grace? I don't think so. Calvin constructed temporal grace to explain his theology, of which not all was wrong. But as with any human, he did take some things to the extreme, as did Arminian. I'm just glad I was not in Geneva in his day. I'd be toasted by now.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44


And He was saying, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.” John 6:65

John 12:32
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Acts 2:17
‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams.

 

[Carbon]

This does not mean that we cannot reject this wonderful gift. It does not say that we can't fall away. Jesus said in Matthew 24:12-13 "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved"

I suppose we could accuse Jesus of advocating self-salvation. But that aside, in order to wax cold, a thing must have been hot. Something cold cannot wax cold. These "many" at one time had possibly been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit, and tasted the goodness of the word of God. They had, in essence, been made alive, and that is why they loved, but they made a free-will choice to return to Egypt and its fleshpots.

So, being made alive and being saved by Grace does not mean Grace will save you. We are saved in the past, we are saved in the present, and we are being saved in the future.

Do I have to answer all these things for you?

Okay, tomorrow I will.

 

[GeneZ]

No doubt. It also says we are slaves, some of us children of the devil, and some of us children of God, slaves all.

The Greek sometimes refers specifically to us being "house slaves."

When it says you are not to judge another man's servant... its speaking of house slaves, which no one in the Roman culture would dare to criticize except his master.

 

[Arial]

I can't believe you imagine it is there. It is χαρις translated 170 times as grace in the New Testament. In the Old Testament, grace, gracious, and graciously are translated 147 times from the same root word: Tnakh. So, unless there is a secret Calvinist Bible, I did not know about it. There is no Irresistible grace, effectual grace, effectual calling, or efficacious grace. Found in the bible.

We find the concept of efficacious grace in God Himself. One place would be Is 55:10-11 "For as the rain and the snow comed down fro heaven and do not return there but water the earth making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed inthe thing for which I sent it.

Another would be Heb 4:12 HOw, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is alive and active, Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow;

 

[Mercy_Shown]

In the Bible does not parse Grace. Grace is grace and not another thing.. These texts all describe the power of God’s word. Do you have any examples of other types of grace in the Bible.

 

[GeneZ]

God, my circumstances, my genetic makeup, my predilection for irony, my personality, my will, my thinking, my trick finger and the way I felt and many other things, not to mention the fact that if God had not made me I wouldn't have willed to write that —all those together, show that there was no other way I would have written that. If just one thing had been different, I might've written it differently, but nothing was different, so I wrote it only the way I did.

And.... what made you write that?

Did you choose to write that?

Sorry.. (just playing the mind game)

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
God, my circumstances, my genetic makeup, my predilection for irony, my personality, my will, my thinking, my trick finger and the way I felt and many other things, not to mention the fact that if God had not made me I wouldn't have willed to write that —all those together, show that there was no other way I would have written that. If just one thing had been different, I might've written it differently, but nothing was different, so I wrote it only the way I did.

And.... what made you write that?

Did you choose to write that?

Sorry.. (just playing the mind game)

Of course I chose to write that! Why should my choice not be also what God has decreed from the beginning?

 

[Mercy_Shown]

makesends said:
God, my circumstances, my genetic makeup, my predilection for irony, my personality, my will, my thinking, my trick finger and the way I felt and many other things, not to mention the fact that if God had not made me I wouldn't have willed to write that —all those together, show that there was no other way I would have written that. If just one thing had been different, I might've written it differently, but nothing was different, so I wrote it only the way I did.

Of course I chose to write that! Why should my choice not be also what God has decreed from the beginning?

It would not be a choice then would it.

 

[GeneZ]

makesends said:
God, my circumstances, my genetic makeup, my predilection for irony, my personality, my will, my thinking, my trick finger and the way I felt and many other things, not to mention the fact that if God had not made me I wouldn't have willed to write that —all those together, show that there was no other way I would have written that. If just one thing had been different, I might've written it differently, but nothing was different, so I wrote it only the way I did.

Of course I chose to write that! Why should my choice not be also what God has decreed from the beginning?

Omniscient God knowing what you would ultimately want to choose, made your choice certain as its now found.

Decreeing does not make us choose something by over riding our will.. (with the exception of the sin onto death)
The decrees determined that out of all the possible ways we could have chosen to express something, that only the one
He decrees would be the one to be manifested in time.

Imagine if God allowed us to marry everyone we ever wished to be married to?
The decrees are truly a good thing in that case....

 

[Carbon]

This does not mean that we cannot reject this wonderful gift.

If one is elected, he cannot ultimately fall away.

It does not say that we can't fall away.

Again a genuinely saved person cannot ultimately fall away. Scripture is full of the teaching that a saved person cannot fall away.

Look at this one. “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:16.

Whosoever believes in Jesus will not what? " will not Perish", and will have "eternal life" Eternal, everlasting, same thing. So, when does everlasting end? {answer: it does not end.}

Jesus said in Matthew 24:12-13 "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved"

Try reading it in context. Jesus is talking about a time when people will hate you because of Him. This is not teaching about Christians hating other Christians, I suggest you re-read the passage.

I suppose we could accuse Jesus of advocating self-salvation. But that aside, in order to wax cold, a thing must have been hot.

Again, re-read. You're way off in left field somewhere.

Something cold cannot wax cold.

These "many" at one time had possibly been enlightened and tasted the heavenly gift, shared in the Holy Spirit, and tasted the goodness of the word of God.

Yes, I suppose that's possible. But that does not mean they were saved.

They had, in essence, been made alive,

Nope. There is no middle ground. Sorry.

and that is why they loved, but they made a free-will choice to return to Egypt and its fleshpots.

Nonsense! Your teaching a false gospel, be careful.

So, being made alive and being saved by Grace does not mean Grace will save you. We are saved in the past, we are saved in the present, and we are being saved in the future.

You're partially correct.

 

[GeneZ]

It would not be a choice then would it.

The decrees is not making you choose something. God takes all the possibilities of what you could choose and (in order to reveal your true heart) limits the choice and not allowing for all the others that could have been taken. That way God does not have us being reborn over and over again, and spending 10,000 years of earth.

Our choices are to reveal who and what we are, so God when evaluating us, does not need to see a repetitive trend to determine what blessings we can have. The decrees limits our time in history in a divinely efficient way.

God does not decree our lives so He can evaluate us. He already knows who and what we are. His decrees causes the unfolding of we discovering over time who and what we are to ourselves. That way we will be stabilized when we face the Lord's evaluation either for reward, or loss of reward for eternity.

If God were sovereign in a way as some propose? In Heaven God would just administer rewards and deny rewards of others, without those involved being aware of how they would have, or would have not chosen, for what God determines our character with.

 

[makesends]

It would not be a choice then would it.

How not?

 

[Mercy_Shown]

How not?

Could you have chosen to go against what God decreed from the beginning?