Why so much against Calvinism?

[ReverendRV]

That's "free will" in the sense that monergists use (free from external coercion); however, it's not free from God's nature, which means that it's not "libertarian free will"; in fact, there neither is, nor can be, any such thing as "libertarian free will".

Right. Only God has the Liberty of the Will, to be Established as a First Cause...

 

[ReverendRV]

Right. Only God has the Liberty of the Will, to be Established as a First Cause...

Professor Flowers believes Man has Decreed in himself, by the most Wise and Holy Counsel of his own Will, Freely and Unchangeably whatsoever comes to Pass in his Life...

I don't believe that...

I already know, y'all don't know what to think about half of what I say...

 

[makesends]

Predestination has embedded in it choice. God's choice and our choice. If one holds all sinners equally lost and incapable then to be chosen is random, without outcome judgements only God's choice. If God's choice is like a farmers seeking good fruit and certain responses and outcomes this is a cause and effect.

For some a response affect is earning salvation, so heresy. For me love is about interaction and choice by both parties. God is love, so His gift of life is choice.

Those lost in darkness are lost and doomed but when the light appears so does a real choice. Equally we are born loving, though often betrayed it is still real. To see sin as revenge on this betrayal makes sense of our God given image of the Father and why we desire to be in the Kingdom.

"Predestination has embedded in it choice." That can be looked at right and also can looked at wrong. That choice is part of how what is predestined comes to pass, and even that choice is itself a predestined ability, does not imply that our future choices being visible to God before he made us, was one of the ways he decided to predestine us.

But it can also be said, as the WCF puts it, that his predestining 'establishes' our ability to choose, (and, I have to say, it establishes even the choices we make).

I don't follow the structure of your sentence:

If one holds all sinners equally lost and incapable then to be chosen is random, without outcome judgements only God's choice.

I can follow the first part, and I disagree with it. We are not equally guilty, if that is what you mean by "equally lost and incapable", but either way, the fact none of the lost are capable, and are equally dead and at enmity with God, still does not imply random choosing by God. So not only do I not follow the structure there, but I don't see how that is logical either.

If God decrees all things for his own purposes, but submits all creation to frustration, and all humanity to depravity, how is any randomness implied? He made each of us, including the reprobate, for his own particular use of each one of us.

Your last paragraph sounds like homemade philosophy. Not at all like scripture. What makes you assume we are born equally loving? Where do you come up with the notion of sin as revenge on betrayal? I don't at all follow how that has anything to do with being made in the image of God and desiring to be in the Kingdom. What you mean by "real choice" in the first sentence of the last paragraph? Are you assuming that "real choice" implies ability to choose either way? The lost, even when they suppose to "choose Christ", if it is not done as a result of God's regenerating them, are still not choosing Christ.

 

[PeterJens]

"Predestination has embedded in it choice." That can be looked at right and also can looked at wrong. That choice is part of how what is predestined comes to pass, and even that choice is itself a predestined ability, does not imply that our future choices being visible to God before he made us, was one of the ways he decided to predestine us.

But it can also be said, as the WCF puts it, that his predestining 'establishes' our ability to choose, (and, I have to say, it establishes even the choices we make).

I don't follow the structure of your sentence:

I can follow the first part, and I disagree with it. We are not equally guilty, if that is what you mean by "equally lost and incapable", but either way, the fact none of the lost are capable, and are equally dead and at enmity with God, still does not imply random choosing by God. So not only do I not follow the structure there, but I don't see how that is logical either.

If God decrees all things for his own purposes, but submits all creation to frustration, and all humanity to depravity, how is any randomness implied? He made each of us, including the reprobate, for his own particular use of each one of us.

Your last paragraph sounds like homemade philosophy. Not at all like scripture. What makes you assume we are born equally loving? Where do you come up with the notion of sin as revenge on betrayal? I don't at all follow how that has anything to do with being made in the image of God and desiring to be in the Kingdom. What you mean by "real choice" in the first sentence of the last paragraph? Are you assuming that "real choice" implies ability to choose either way? The lost, even when they suppose to "choose Christ", if it is not done as a result of God's regenerating them, are still not choosing Christ.

Proposition 1: A reductionist framework were all are equally lost and incapable of being saved or acceptable, other than if changed. And the change when created is permanent, irrefutable and eternal. If this is ones belief system then there is no choice or resolution in which people partake just Gods will. I am not saying from some perspectives this is actually true, but God equally can create the environment were meaningful choice does take place. The tension is expressed in how Pharaoh responded to Moses's request to let Israel go and the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart. But equally choice does exist, and the disciples were called and they responded. What I am responding to is the expression by some that any participation by a believer in the outcome of the walk with Jesus is self righteousness and heresy, is a denial of the dynamic of who Jesus is and His appeal to His people. In one real sense we are drawn unto Him, because His light is so stunning, we walk on. In one way there is a choice but in another nothing else comes close. So I am reticent to say any description is finished, rather it is an infinite patchwork, where we grasp the beginning of just some of the implications.

Homemade philosophy. What is it to be made in the image of God? We love, it is in the chore of who humans are. Just listen to people and their songs, which have love as the highest ethic, often opposed with disappointment and betrayal. Our commonest conversation among guys is I never knew my dad. Or a common dream is expressing love father to son, and son to father. Some of my friends spent their early years trying to get their dads to be proud of them. When you strip psychology down it is resolving these broken relationships and seeing God as our true Father, and Jesus as our brother as well as Saviour and Lord.

There is only one real choice in the universe to walk deeper with Jesus. To walk away is to walk into darkness and life falling apart. C S Lewis in the great divorce put it in terms of being like a ghost that over time becomes real. Choices, where I live, who I marry, do I want children, this type of job. It can feel like these are real and significant, but for me they are out shone by the walk with Jesus. And in a real way this is a daily choice, a daily giving, listening and walking in the way.

God bless you

 

[David1701]

Proposition 1: A reductionist framework were all are equally lost and incapable of being saved or acceptable, other than if changed. And the change when created is permanent, irrefutable and eternal. If this is ones belief system then there is no choice or resolution in which people partake just Gods will. I am not saying from some perspectives this is actually true, but God equally can create the environment were meaningful choice does take place. The tension is expressed in how Pharaoh responded to Moses's request to let Israel go and the Lord hardened Pharaohs heart. But equally choice does exist, and the disciples were called and they responded. What I am responding to is the expression by some that any participation by a believer in the outcome of the walk with Jesus is self righteousness and heresy, is a denial of the dynamic of who Jesus is and His appeal to His people. In one real sense we are drawn unto Him, because His light is so stunning, we walk on. In one way there is a choice but in another nothing else comes close. So I am reticent to say any description is finished, rather it is an infinite patchwork, where we grasp the beginning of just some of the implications.

Homemade philosophy. What is it to be made in the image of God? We love, it is in the chore of who humans are. Just listen to people and their songs, which have love as the highest ethic, often opposed with disappointment and betrayal. Our commonest conversation among guys is I never knew my dad. Or a common dream is expressing love father to son, and son to father. Some of my friends spent their early years trying to get their dads to be proud of them. When you strip psychology down it is resolving these broken relationships and seeing God as our true Father, and Jesus as our brother as well as Saviour and Lord.

There is only one real choice in the universe to walk deeper with Jesus. To walk away is to walk into darkness and life falling apart. C S Lewis in the great divorce put it in terms of being like a ghost that over time becomes real. Choices, where I live, who I marry, do I want children, this type of job. It can feel like these are real and significant, but for me they are out shone by the walk with Jesus. And in a real way this is a daily choice, a daily giving, listening and walking in the way.

God bless you

Are you a sheep because you believe in Jesus; or, do you believe in Jesus because you are a sheep?

John 10:24-29 (EMTV)
24 Then the Jews encircled Him and said to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, these things testify about Me.
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, just as I said to you.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give to them eternal life, and they shall never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

 

[ezra]

there are some things i can go along with in Calvinism others i cant. i once belonged to a carm forum very much Calvinism . all i could ever get out of them was how wrong i was and how right they was. i was told i was a false teacher my answers were straw man . when it comes to getting saved if God is dealing with your heart/drawing you in . you can be saved ..the night i got saved i heard God say its now or never. i chose the now. i went to the altar and asked God to save me. 5 years alter He called me to preach. i am very much free will. i have been told it was impossible to hear God say now or never. i am living prof .

 

[ReverendRV]

there are some things i can go along with in Calvinism others i cant. i once belonged to a carm forum very much Calvinism . all i could ever get out of them was how wrong i was and how right they was. i was told i was a false teacher my answers were straw man . when it comes to getting saved if God is dealing with your heart/drawing you in . you can be saved ..the night i got saved i heard God say its now or never. i chose the now. i went to the altar and asked God to save me. 5 years alter He called me to preach. i am very much free will. i have been told it was impossible to hear God say now or never. i am living prof .

You may enjoy this Forum more. We try to avoid dogging out other Posters for disagreeing with us. Sure, people will disagree with you; but hopefully it won't hurt so much...

 

[Carbon]

there are some things i can go along with in Calvinism others i cant. i once belonged to a carm forum very much Calvinism . all i could ever get out of them was how wrong i was and how right they was. i was told i was a false teacher my answers were straw man . when it comes to getting saved if God is dealing with your heart/drawing you in . you can be saved ..the night i got saved i heard God say its now or never. i chose the now. i went to the altar and asked God to save me. 5 years alter He called me to preach. i am very much free will. i have been told it was impossible to hear God say now or never. i am living prof .

Well, I personally may not agree with all you believe, for example, I do not believe man is born with free will and able to choose Christ. But if you agree we are saved by grace through faith alone in Christ alone, we are in agreement there.

 

[Alive]

there are some things i can go along with in Calvinism others i cant. i once belonged to a carm forum very much Calvinism . all i could ever get out of them was how wrong i was and how right they was. i was told i was a false teacher my answers were straw man . when it comes to getting saved if God is dealing with your heart/drawing you in . you can be saved ..the night i got saved i heard God say its now or never. i chose the now. i went to the altar and asked God to save me. 5 years alter He called me to preach. i am very much free will. i have been told it was impossible to hear God say now or never. i am living prof .

I agree with you regarding carm. It was a brutal environment and although I am not a freewiller, as you see it, I could not abide the way folks conducted themselves. I hope and prayer, it is not so here.
God bless you, ezra.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Well, I'd say more like free will in salvation. Before regeneration, I believe man will freely choose against Christ. Because he is of the natural man. Therefore he cannot choose Christ, nor does he have a desire to.

After regeneration, the new man freely chooses Christ. He is not forced but freely chooses.

I do know what you mean, but I don't believe this applies to people who have been born into and raised Christian. As a child I had no problem believing in Christ.

 

[Carbon]

I do know what you mean, but I don't believe this applies to people who have been born into and raised Christian. As a child I had no problem believing in Christ.

Okay

 

[Illuminator]

With almost equal frequency, Calvinists mistakenly think that Catholics disagree with them on various points, when in fact, we agree. It works both ways: Catholics often inadvertently mischaracterize various Calvinist or other Protestant beliefs as contradictory to the Catholic faith, when they are not so. We have more in common than many (probably most) of those on either side realize.​

Top 15 “Catholic” Beliefs of Protestant Leader John Calvin​

50 “Catholic” Views of Protestant Leader John Calvin​

. . . Where His Views Are Harmonious With Catholic Teaching

 

[ReverendRV]

With almost equal frequency, Calvinists mistakenly think that Catholics disagree with them on various points, when in fact, we agree. It works both ways: Catholics often inadvertently mischaracterize various Calvinist or other Protestant beliefs as contradictory to the Catholic faith, when they are not so. We have more in common than many (probably most) of those on either side realize.​

Top 15 “Catholic” Beliefs of Protestant Leader John Calvin​

50 “Catholic” Views of Protestant Leader John Calvin​

. . . Where His Views Are Harmonious With Catholic Teaching

You sound like me...

 

[civic]

You sound like me...

Is it JK, sorry I couldn’t help myself

 

[ReverendRV]

Is it JK, sorry I couldn’t help myself

Well...

 

[Illuminator]

I do know what you mean, but I don't believe this applies to people who have been born into and raised Christian. As a child I had no problem believing in Christ.

Christians who grow up in functioning families often feel they are missing out on a dynamic "born again" experience when in fact they don't need one.

 

[Illuminator]

I take the same Biblical stand that R. C. Sproul took on Catholics being brothers as per what he said on the ECT (Evangelicals and Catholics Together) panel discussion with John MacArthur, D. James Kennedy, and hosted by John Ankerberg. John also took the same stance. Kennedy did as well.

I do not believe we are close, see their gospel as errant, and in no way do I believe in ecumenism with that sect.

Well, if I believed what you think ecumenism is, I would reject it too. Jesus' prayer that we be ONE is not a globalist conspiracy.

Ut Unum Sint (25 May 1995) | John Paul II

Encyclical Letter Ut Unum Sint (25 May 1995) On commitment to Ecumenism

www.vatican.va

 

[Illuminator]

I take the same Biblical stand that R. C. Sproul took on Catholics being brothers as per what he said on the ECT (Evangelicals and Catholics Together) panel discussion with John MacArthur, D. James Kennedy, and hosted by John Ankerberg. John also took the same stance. Kennedy did as well.

I do not believe we are close, see their gospel as errant, and in no way do I believe in ecumenism with that sect.

Is that your response to post 145? Your denial of it affirms my point.

 

[QVQ]

What Calvin meant by Church and what Catholics mean by Church are two different concepts.
I believe in one Church but that includes all Christians.
There are doctrines that are derived from Augustine and Aquinas in Calvin's theology. Calvin was, in the beginning, a Catholic.
The earliest Schism was Rome and Eastern Orthodox.
The Protestants are not the only ones who question the primacy and infallibility of Rome. That has a very long history.

 

[ezra]

Well, I am glad God saved you.

I will suggest an open mind, as certainly as you've been told your views are false, you hold the same opinion toward others as well. Knowing Scripture, the God of Scripture, the persecutions and martyrdoms of His people, and especially the slaying of His Son, we should not, imho, walk around upset because a person disagrees with us, or calls our teachings false, straw man arguments &c.

If that is the extent of the "suffering" we are given, it is nothing in comparison to many Biblical examples.

i am good with disagreement until point it becomes your right i am wrong no matter. many years ago i did a email correspondence with a man who parkisions. he was Calvinist . we emailed each other using scripture to defend our stance .he finally gave up. even though i dont agree with Calvinism it does not create a ganger sign with me. the apostolic oneness doctrine does. .

i have face book friend in Scotland that is Calvinist. i have watched the service on Facebook. . besides when we get to heaven there will be no church denoms