Why Have You Forsaken Me?

[GoKart Mozart]

What matters most is what the bible teaches on the subject.

The highest consideration is the truth of the matter and not one's presuppositions of what scriptures say or do not say.
That would apply to all of us.

considering Anselm and so many other ECF's

Anselm is not an early church father

isn't it interesting to know that we are not the first generation to look to scripture for its teaching on it?

If the final "it" in your question refers to "Penal Substitutionary Atonement (PSA)" specifically then I can only offer a reserved agreement to the fact that PSA is indeed older than our generation. In that regard you and I would not be living in the first generation to look at it. That is interesting enough. If you meant something else by "it", then my response may vary.

It would be hard to ignore the opinions and learnings of such giants of the faith such as Athanasius and Augustine.

Agree, which is why it is very important to point out that neither Augustine nor Athanasius taught Penal Substitutionary Atonement as presented in Reformed Theology.

 

[Arial]

Agree, which is why it is very important to point out that neither Augustine nor Athanasius taught Penal Substitutionary Atonement as presented in Reformed Theology.

We would need to know what you think the Reformed view of PSA is before that can be adequately addressed.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Nothing more to explain. Jesus said what He said, and the Holy Spirit had been with HIM since his baptism. Apparently SOMETHING HAPPENED at that point in time as He was dying, and as He became SIN for us (as the "Sin Offering" and the "Scapegoat"), the Holy Spirit LEAVING HIM would appear to be a reasonable assumption.

Are familiar of the Covenant of Redemption? Why do you think the Spirit was given to him at Baptism?

 

[Ladodgers6]

Brother we must remember His Person is Divine, not human otherwise its Nestorianism.

As a side note natures do not die- people, persons die.

The question is did the Father willingly punish his Son in our place? PSA is a Biblical teaching. Don't you see why Christ nature matter for us? Why he is the God-Man? Christ is human and divine at the same time.

Jesus Christ is true God and true Man also referred to as the Hypostatic Union. Salvation depends on the belief that Christ had to become fully human to share his full divinity with humanity.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Where would you prefer that topic in the Trinity forum or somewhere else ?

Are we getting off track here. Let's address PSA, first. Civic would you do me the honors and present your case against it? And please provide your sources if you don't mind.

 

[Carbon]

The question is did the Father willingly punish his Son in our place? PSA is a Biblical teaching. Don't you see why Christ nature matter for us? Why he is the God-Man? Christ is human and divine at the same time.

Jesus Christ is true God and true Man also referred to as the Hypostatic Union. Salvation depends on the belief that Christ had to become fully human to share his full divinity with humanity.

Amen brother!

 

[Carbon]

Are we getting off track here. Let's address PSA, first. Civic would you do me the honors and present your case against it? And please provide your sources if you don't mind.

That's a good idea.

 

[civic]

Are we getting off track here. Let's address PSA, first. Civic would you do me the honors and present your case against it? And please provide your sources if you don't mind.

Throw me some questions as you know my reason why I reject PSA from the old forum.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Throw me some questions as you know my reason why I reject PSA from the old forum.

I have been going through some medical procedures and PT. Please if you wouldn't mind, remind me of your position. A recap if possible, thanks.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Throw me some questions as you know my reason why I reject PSA from the old forum.

If you can include this into your reply. Why is bloodshed necessary? Why did Christ need to be humiliated and wear a crown of thorns? Why was Christ's hair pulled out in clumps and why was he disfigured?

Why couldn't God just snap his fingers like Thanos and make it all go away and start over? Why not just forgive us and move on?

Thanks.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Throw me some questions as you know my reason why I reject PSA from the old forum.

Sorry to bombard with all these questions. Do you still hold to the imputed righteousness of Christ through Faith Alone?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Are familiar of the Covenant of Redemption?

Never heard of it.

Why do you think the Spirit was given to him at Baptism?

Since Jesus' Baptism was the beginning of his earthly ministry, and Jesus was a normal Human MAN, then just as in our case, the Holy Spirit was the one who guided His ministry, and gave Him the POWER to work His miracles, and know wht to do. Jesus said that he did that which He saw Father God doing, and the Holy Spirit was his "Link" to God's will in situations. Jesus was different from us in that the Holy SPirit was His WITHOUT MEASURE, while in our case, it's Measured out to us as needed.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Never heard of it.

John Owen was a 17th century Puritan theologian who rooted the atonement of Christ on a trinitarian basis, seen in the eternal counsels of God, which he describes as the covenant of redemption. The covenant of redemption is a covenant where the Father decrees to send the Son to save and redeem sinners, and the Son agrees to work for the glory of the Father and the salvation of his people. Owen saw the covenant as the foundation of the economy of salvation and the incarnation of Christ.

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[Ladodgers6]

Never heard of it.

John Owen was a 17th century Puritan theologian who rooted the atonement of Christ on a trinitarian basis, seen in the eternal counsels of God, which he describes as the covenant of redemption. The covenant of redemption is a covenant where the Father decrees to send the Son to save and redeem sinners, and the Son agrees to work for the glory of the Father and the salvation of his people. Owen saw the covenant as the foundation of the economy of salvation and the incarnation of Christ.​

 

[Bob Carabbio]

John Owen was a 17th century Puritan theologian who rooted the atonement of Christ on a trinitarian basis, seen in the eternal counsels of God, which he describes as the covenant of redemption. The covenant of redemption is a covenant where the Father decrees to send the Son to save and redeem sinners, and the Son agrees to work for the glory of the Father and the salvation of his people. Owen saw the covenant as the foundation of the economy of salvation and the incarnation of Christ.​

What does "economy of salvation" mean??

 

[Ladodgers6]

What does "economy of salvation" mean??

Vital

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Vital

That makes no sense at all. Must be just another "Theological Buzz Word".

 

[GoKart Mozart]

That makes no sense at all. Must be just another "Theological Buzz Word".

I don't know what the phrase "economy of salvation" is supposed to mean.

I kept trying to reconcile it (in my head) with the Greek "οἰκονομία" which relates to household stewardship and a means to an end. In ancient economic theory, an action is considered economically rational only when taken towards a praiseworthy end. In some instances the means can be altered as long as the praiseworthy end remains.
This seemingly/probably has nothing to do with the usage in this instance.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I don't know what the phrase "economy of salvation" is supposed to mean.

I kept trying to reconcile it (in my head) with the Greek "οἰκονομία" which relates to household stewardship and a means to an end. In ancient economic theory, an action is considered economically rational only when taken towards a praiseworthy end. In some instances the means can be altered as long as the praiseworthy end remains.
This seemingly/probably has nothing to do with the usage in this instance.

"Theologians" LOVE to make up religious "Buzz words". A bit ago, I found out that to the "Calvinist", "Born Again" and "Saved" aren't the same thing!!! Who Knew??

 

[Ladodgers6]

That makes no sense at all. Must be just another "Theological Buzz Word".

I use to think at way a long time ago. I was hoping you were going to research it for yourself. Do you want me to tell you or do you want to research it first?

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