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Why Have You Forsaken Me?

Here is the thing natures do not die, natures are not persons. Persons die, are persecuted, loved etc...... Jesus is a Divine Person not a human person ( Nestorianism ). Whatever happened to Jesus happened to a Divine Person, not a nature. This is sound Christology. @Binyawmene . It was not a nature that suffered and died it was a Person, that Person was Divine. This is why at its very core its an issue with the Tri-Unity of God.

hope this helps !!!
Firstly, that Person (the Lord Jesus Christ) is both human and divine; not, as you claimed divine but not human. Otherwise you end up with the heresy that Jesus only appeared to be human.

Secondly, when a normal human dies, it is not the whole person that dies, only his physical body. His spirit returns to God who gave it.

Your post is nonsense.
 
Firstly, that Person (the Lord Jesus Christ) is both human and divine; not, as you claimed divine but not human. Otherwise you end up with the heresy that Jesus only appeared to be human.

Secondly, when a normal human dies, it is not the whole person that dies, only his physical body. His spirit returns to God who gave it.

Your post is nonsense.
He is a Divine Person not a human person.
 
I think you'd better explain what you mean there. Is Jesus Christ not come in the flesh? Human flesh?
Christ is a Divine Person not a human person as taught by Nestorius.

The Creed of Chalcedon was adopted at the fourth and fifth sessions of the fourth œcumenical Council, held at Chalcedon, opposite Constantinople, A.D. 451 (Oct. 22d and 25th). It embraces the Nicæno-Constantinopolitan Creed, and the christological doctrine set forth in 30the classical Epistola Dogmatica of Pope Leo the Great to Flavian, the Patriarch of Constantinople and martyr of diophysitic orthodoxy at the so-called Council of Robbers (held at Ephesus in 449).5959 Comp. my Church Hist. Vol. III. p. 738.

While the first Council of Nicæa had established the eternal, pre-existent Godhead of Christ, the Symbol of the fourth œcumenical Council relates to the incarnate Logos, as he walked upon earth and sits on the right hand of the Father. It is directed against the errors of Nestorius and Eutyches, who agreed with the Nicene Creed as opposed to Arianism, but put the Godhead of Christ in a false relation to his humanity. It substantially completes the orthodox Christology of the ancient Church; for the definitions added during the Monophysite and Monothelite controversies are few and comparatively unessential. As the Nicene doctrine of the Trinity stands midway between Tritheism and Sabellianism, so the Chalcedonian formula strikes the true mean between Nestorianism and Eutychianism.

The following are the leading ideas of the Chalcedonian Christology as embodied in this symbol:6060 Abridged, in part, from My Church History, Vol. III. pp. 747 sqq.

1. A true incarnation of the Logos, or the second person in the Godhead (ἐνανθρώπησις θεοῦ, ἐνσάρκωσις τοῦ λόγου, incarnatio Verbi).)6161 The diametrical opposite of the ἐνανθρώπησις θεοῦ is the heathen ἀποθέωσις ἀνθρώπου. This incarnation is neither a conversion or transmutation of God into man, nor a conversion of man into God, and a consequent absorption of the one, or a confusion (κρᾶσις, σύγχυσις) of the two; nor, on the other hand, a mere indwelling (ἐνοίκησις, inhabitatio) of the one in the other, nor an outward, transitory connection (συνάφεια, conjunctio) of the two factors, but an actual and abiding union of the two in one personal life.

2. The precise distinction between nature and person. Nature or substance (essence, οὐσία) denotes the totality of powers and qualities which constitute a being; while person (ὑπόστασις, πρόσωπον) is the Ego, the self-conscious, self-asserting and acting subject. The Logos assumed, not a human person (else we would have two persons, a divine and a human), but human nature which is common to us all; and hence he redeemed, not a particular man, but all men as partakers of the same nature.

313. The God-Man as the result of the incarnation. Christ is not a (Nestorian) double being, with twopersons, nor a compound (Apollinarian or Monophysite) middle being, a tertium quid, neither divine nor human; but he is one person both divine and human.

4. The duality of the natures. The orthodox doctrine maintains, against Eutychianism, the distinction of nature even after the act of incarnation, without confusion or conversion (ἀσυγχύτως, inconfuse, and ἀτρέπτως, immutabiliter), yet, on the other hand, without division or separation (ἀδιαιρέτως, indivise, and ἀχωρίστως, inseparabiliter), so that the divine will ever remain divine, and the human ever human,6262 'Tenet,' says Leo, in his Epist. 28 ad Flavian., 'sine defectu proprietatem suam utraque natura, et sicut formam servi Dei forma non adimit, ita formam Dei servi forma non minuit. . . . Agit utraque forma cum alterius communione quod proprium est; Verbo scilicet operante quod Verbi est, et carne exsequente quod carnis est. Unum horum coruscat miraculis, aliud succumbit injuriis. Et sicut Verbum ab æqualitate paternæ gloriæ non recedit, ita caro naturam nostri generis non relinquit.' and yet the two have continually one common life, and interpenetrate each other, like the persons of the Trinity.6363 Here belongs, in further explanation, the scholastic doctrine of the περιχώρησις, permeatio, circummeatio, circulatio, circumincessio, intercommunio, or reciprocal indwelling and pervasion, which has relation, not merely to the Trinity, but also to Christology. The verb περιχωρεῖν is first applied by Gregory of Nyssa (Contra Apollinarium) to the interpenetration and reciprocal pervasion of the two natures in Christ. On this rested also the doctrine of the exchange or communication of attributes, ἀντίδοσις, ἀντιμετάστασις, κοινωνία ἰδιωμάτων, communicatio idiomatum. The ἀντιμετάστασις τῶν ὀνομάτων, also ἀντιμεδίστασις, transmutatio proprietatum, transmutation of attributes, is, strictly speaking, not identical with ἀντίδοσις, but a deduction from it, and the rhetorical expression for it.
 
continued:

5. The unity of the person (ἕνωσις καθ᾽ ὑπόστασιν, ἕνωσις ὑποστατική, unio hypostatica or unio personalis). The union of the divine and human nature in Christ is a permanent state resulting from the incarnation, and is a real, supernatural, personal, and inseparable union—in distinction from an essential absorption or confusion, or from a mere moral union; or from a mystical union such as holds between the believer and Christ. The two natures constitute but one personal life, and yet remain distinct. 'The same who is true God,' says Leo, 'is also true man, and in this unity there is no deceit; for in it the lowliness of man and the majesty of God perfectly pervade one another. . . . Because the two natures make only one person, we read on the one hand: "The Son of Man came down from heaven" (John iii. 13), while yet the Son of God took flesh from the Virgin; and on the other hand: "The 32Son of God was crucified and buried,"6464 Comp. 1 Cor. ii. 8: 'They would not have crucified the Lord of glory.' while yet he suffered, not in his Godhead as coeternal and consubstantial with the Father, but in the weakness of human nature.' The self-consciousness of Christ is never divided; his person consists in such a union of the human and the divine natures, that the divine nature is the seat of self-consciousness, and pervades and animates the human.

6. The whole work of Christ is to be attributed to his person, and not to the one or the other nature exclusively. The person is the acting subject, the nature the organ or medium. It is the one divine-human person of Christ that wrought miracles by virtue of his divine nature, and that suffered through the sensorium of his human nature. The superhuman effect and infinite merit of the Redeemer's work must be ascribed to his person because of his divinity; while it is his humanity alone that made him capable of, and liable to, toil, temptation, suffering, and death, and renders him an example for our imitation.

7. The anhypostasia, impersonality, or, to speak more accurately, the enhypostasia, of the human nature of Christ;6565 Ἀνυπόστατος is that which has no personality in itself, ἐνυπόστατος that which subsists in another personality, or partakes of another hypostasis. for anhypostasia is a purely negative term, and presupposes a fictitious abstraction, since the human nature of Christ did not exist at all before the act of the incarnation, and could therefore be neither personal nor impersonal. The meaning of this doctrine is that Christ's human nature had no independent personality of its own, besides the divine, and that the divine nature is the root and basis of his personality.6666 The doctrine of the impersonality of the human nature of Christ may already be found as to its germ in Cyril of Alexandria, and was afterwards more fully developed by John of Damascus (De orthodoxa fide, lib. III.), and by the Lutheran scholastics of the seventeenth century, who, however, did not, for all this, conceive Christ as a mere generic being typifying mankind, but as a concrete human individual. Comp. Petavius, De incarnatione, lib. V. c. 5–8 (Tom. IV. pp. 421 sqq.); Thomasius, Christol. II. 108–110; Rothe, Dogmatik, II. 51 and 147.
 
makesends said:
I think you'd better explain what you mean there. Is Jesus Christ not come in the flesh? Human flesh?
Christ is a Divine Person not a human person as taught by Nestorius.

The Creed of Chalcedon was adopted at the fourth and fifth sessions of the fourth œcumenical Council, held at Chalcedon, opposite Constantinople, A.D. 451 (Oct. 22d and 25th). It embraces the Nicæno-Constantinopolitan Creed, and the christological doctrine set forth in 30the classical Epistola Dogmatica of Pope Leo the Great to Flavian, the Patriarch of Constantinople and martyr of diophysitic orthodoxy at the so-called Council of Robbers (held at Ephesus in 449).5959 Comp. my Church Hist. Vol. III. p. 738.

While the first Council of Nicæa had established the eternal, pre-existent Godhead of Christ, the Symbol of the fourth œcumenical Council relates to the incarnate Logos, as he walked upon earth and sits on the right hand of the Father. It is directed against the errors of Nestorius and Eutyches, who agreed with the Nicene Creed as opposed to Arianism, but put the Godhead of Christ in a false relation to his humanity. It substantially completes the orthodox Christology of the ancient Church; for the definitions added during the Monophysite and Monothelite controversies are few and comparatively unessential. As the Nicene doctrine of the Trinity stands midway between Tritheism and Sabellianism, so the Chalcedonian formula strikes the true mean between Nestorianism and Eutychianism.

The following are the leading ideas of the Chalcedonian Christology as embodied in this symbol:6060 Abridged, in part, from My Church History, Vol. III. pp. 747 sqq.

1. A true incarnation of the Logos, or the second person in the Godhead (ἐνανθρώπησις θεοῦ, ἐνσάρκωσις τοῦ λόγου, incarnatio Verbi).)6161 The diametrical opposite of the ἐνανθρώπησις θεοῦ is the heathen ἀποθέωσις ἀνθρώπου. This incarnation is neither a conversion or transmutation of God into man, nor a conversion of man into God, and a consequent absorption of the one, or a confusion (κρᾶσις, σύγχυσις) of the two; nor, on the other hand, a mere indwelling (ἐνοίκησις, inhabitatio) of the one in the other, nor an outward, transitory connection (συνάφεια, conjunctio) of the two factors, but an actual and abiding union of the two in one personal life.

2. The precise distinction between nature and person. Nature or substance (essence, οὐσία) denotes the totality of powers and qualities which constitute a being; while person (ὑπόστασις, πρόσωπον) is the Ego, the self-conscious, self-asserting and acting subject. The Logos assumed, not a human person (else we would have two persons, a divine and a human), but human nature which is common to us all; and hence he redeemed, not a particular man, but all men as partakers of the same nature.

313. The God-Man as the result of the incarnation. Christ is not a (Nestorian) double being, with twopersons, nor a compound (Apollinarian or Monophysite) middle being, a tertium quid, neither divine nor human; but he is one person both divine and human.

4. The duality of the natures. The orthodox doctrine maintains, against Eutychianism, the distinction of nature even after the act of incarnation, without confusion or conversion (ἀσυγχύτως, inconfuse, and ἀτρέπτως, immutabiliter), yet, on the other hand, without division or separation (ἀδιαιρέτως, indivise, and ἀχωρίστως, inseparabiliter), so that the divine will ever remain divine, and the human ever human,6262 'Tenet,' says Leo, in his Epist. 28 ad Flavian., 'sine defectu proprietatem suam utraque natura, et sicut formam servi Dei forma non adimit, ita formam Dei servi forma non minuit. . . . Agit utraque forma cum alterius communione quod proprium est; Verbo scilicet operante quod Verbi est, et carne exsequente quod carnis est. Unum horum coruscat miraculis, aliud succumbit injuriis. Et sicut Verbum ab æqualitate paternæ gloriæ non recedit, ita caro naturam nostri generis non relinquit.' and yet the two have continually one common life, and interpenetrate each other, like the persons of the Trinity.6363 Here belongs, in further explanation, the scholastic doctrine of the περιχώρησις, permeatio, circummeatio, circulatio, circumincessio, intercommunio, or reciprocal indwelling and pervasion, which has relation, not merely to the Trinity, but also to Christology. The verb περιχωρεῖν is first applied by Gregory of Nyssa (Contra Apollinarium) to the interpenetration and reciprocal pervasion of the two natures in Christ. On this rested also the doctrine of the exchange or communication of attributes, ἀντίδοσις, ἀντιμετάστασις, κοινωνία ἰδιωμάτων, communicatio idiomatum. The ἀντιμετάστασις τῶν ὀνομάτων, also ἀντιμεδίστασις, transmutatio proprietatum, transmutation of attributes, is, strictly speaking, not identical with ἀντίδοσις, but a deduction from it, and the rhetorical expression for it.
So is that a yes? Jesus Christ is come in the flesh? I didn't ask if you think Jesus had a human and a divine nature.
 
Here is the thing natures do not die, natures are not persons. Persons die, are persecuted, loved etc...... Jesus is a Divine Person not a human person ( Nestorianism ). Whatever happened to Jesus happened to a Divine Person, not a nature. This is sound Christology. @Binyawmene . It was not a nature that suffered and died it was a Person, that Person was Divine. This is why at its very core its an issue with the Tri-Unity of God.

hope this helps !!!
Civic, Carbon doesn't hold to Nestorianism. Our position holds to the Hypostatic Union of Christ. But I am curious to know, what you think Jesus meant by saying, "“Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Who is Jesus talking to? And if he is talking to God (His Father), why does he say this?​
 
Civic, Carbon doesn't hold to Nestorianism. Our position holds to the Hypostatic Union of Christ. But I am curious to know, what you think Jesus meant by saying, "“Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” Who is Jesus talking to? And if he is talking to God (His Father), why does he say this?​
He Passed Over my 'Leading Question'...
 
continued:

5. The unity of the person (ἕνωσις καθ᾽ ὑπόστασιν, ἕνωσις ὑποστατική, unio hypostatica or unio personalis). The union of the divine and human nature in Christ is a permanent state resulting from the incarnation, and is a real, supernatural, personal, and inseparable union—in distinction from an essential absorption or confusion, or from a mere moral union; or from a mystical union such as holds between the believer and Christ. The two natures constitute but one personal life, and yet remain distinct. 'The same who is true God,' says Leo, 'is also true man, and in this unity there is no deceit; for in it the lowliness of man and the majesty of God perfectly pervade one another. . . . Because the two natures make only one person, we read on the one hand: "The Son of Man came down from heaven" (John iii. 13), while yet the Son of God took flesh from the Virgin; and on the other hand: "The 32Son of God was crucified and buried,"6464 Comp. 1 Cor. ii. 8: 'They would not have crucified the Lord of glory.' while yet he suffered, not in his Godhead as coeternal and consubstantial with the Father, but in the weakness of human nature.' The self-consciousness of Christ is never divided; his person consists in such a union of the human and the divine natures, that the divine nature is the seat of self-consciousness, and pervades and animates the human.
How could he only suffer in human nature and not in both? Isn't this Nestorianism?
 
He Passed Over my 'Leading Question'...
Help me understand this from Civic.

5. The unity of the person (ἕνωσις καθ᾽ ὑπόστασιν, ἕνωσις ὑποστατική, unio hypostatica or unio personalis). The union of the divine and human nature in Christ is a permanent state resulting from the incarnation, and is a real, supernatural, personal, and inseparable union—in distinction from an essential absorption or confusion, or from a mere moral union; or from a mystical union such as holds between the believer and Christ. The two natures constitute but one personal life, and yet remain distinct. 'The same who is true God,' says Leo, 'is also true man, and in this unity there is no deceit; for in it the lowliness of man and the majesty of God perfectly pervade one another. . . . Because the two natures make only one person, we read on the one hand: "The Son of Man came down from heaven" (John iii. 13), while yet the Son of God took flesh from the Virgin; and on the other hand: "The 32Son of God was crucified and buried,"6464 Comp. 1 Cor. ii. 8: 'They would not have crucified the Lord of glory.' while yet he suffered, not in his Godhead as coeternal and consubstantial with the Father, but in the weakness of human nature.' The self-consciousness of Christ is never divided; his person consists in such a union of the human and the divine natures, that the divine nature is the seat of self-consciousness, and pervades and animates the human.

How can Christ only suffer in human form but not as one? God throughout Scripture expresses angry, love, joy, peace, judgement and mercy. But isn't what Civic writes Nestorianism?
 
Help me understand this from Civic.



How can Christ only suffer in human form but not as one? God throughout Scripture expresses angry, love, joy, peace, judgement and mercy. But isn't what Civic writes Nestorianism?
I will have to read that over and over; or have Civic simplify it for me. It doesn't seem to say Jesus only Suffered in the Flesh. What part of the Paragraph says this?
 
I will have to read that over and over; or have Civic simplify it for me. It doesn't seem to say Jesus only Suffered in the Flesh. What part of the Paragraph says this?
'They would not have crucified the Lord of glory.' while yet he suffered, not in his Godhead as coeternal and consubstantial with the Father, but in the weakness of human nature.'
 
I will have to read that over and over; or have Civic simplify it for me. It doesn't seem to say Jesus only Suffered in the Flesh. What part of the Paragraph says this?
I gotta go, been up reading Justification By Faith Alone. I have to read everyday single day. Just like coffee.
 
'They would not have crucified the Lord of glory.' while yet he suffered, not in his Godhead as coeternal and consubstantial with the Father, but in the weakness of human nature.'
The word "Godhead" throws me off; I usually read that as the Trinity, not as Christ's personal 'Godhood'...

Because of Civic's belief in the Communicatio Idiomatum, I wouldn't assume he means to say Christ's Deity didn't Suffer...
 
'They would not have crucified the Lord of glory.' while yet he suffered, not in his Godhead as coeternal and consubstantial with the Father, but in the weakness of human nature.'
Christ is still a member of the Trinity while on earth. He is the God-Man. This sentence separates this divine nature with the human nature. He suffered as one, not separate.
 
Christ is still a member of the Trinity while on earth. He is the God-Man. This sentence separates this divine nature with the human nature. He suffered as one, not separate.
If Civic means Christ's Deity didn't Suffer, then there is no Need for Communicatio Idiomatum at all...
 
The word "Godhead" throws me off; I usually read that as the Trinity, not as Christ's personal 'Godhood'...

Because of Civic's belief in the Communicatio Idiomatum, I wouldn't assume he means to say Christ's Deity didn't Suffer...
I understand that his divine nature cannot experience death and decay, but God demonstrated his feelings, such as being angry, happy, joyful, having sorrow, judgemental, merciful, graceful. Wouldn't he experience these feelings of pain in the human nature? I need to research this further.​
 
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