Why Have You Forsaken Me?

[ReverendRV]

I understand that his divine nature cannot experience death and decay, but God demonstrated his feelings, such as being angry, happy, joyful, having sorrow, judgemental, merciful, graceful. Wouldn't he experience these feelings of pain in the human nature? I need to research this further.​

My Leading question was leading to this...

Philippians 2:6-8: "Though Christ Jesus was by nature God, he didn't consider equality with God as a prize to be displayed (or clung to), but emptied himself by taking the nature of a servant. When he was born in human likeness, and his appearance was like that of any other man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death - even death on a cross".

Jesus Suppressed the Expression of his Deity, in order to live on the level of an Unfallen Adam. This means Christ's Deity became Obedient to the Point of Death. His Deity would Obey the Righteous Requirements of the Law of God; and Punishment for Trespassing the Law would bring the Righteous Requirement of Death to His Person...

In this respect, Jesus was in theory Peccable...

 

[David1701]

He is a Divine Person not a human person.

If you think that Jesus is not human, then you are not a Christian. He is God and man, not God only.

 

[ReverendRV]

If you think that Jesus is not human, then you are not a Christian. He is God and man, not God only.

It would be a terrible thought that Civic is Antichrist...

 

[David1701]

It would be a terrible thought that Civic is Antichrist...

I'm hoping that he doesn't mean what he appears to mean.

 

[civic]

If you think that Jesus is not human, then you are not a Christian. He is God and man, not God only.

Read your Orthodox Creeds on the Trinity and Deity of Christ.

Christ is a Divine Person(not a human person which is Netorianism, 2 persons) who assumed a human nature. See the Chalcedon and Athanasian creeds that go into detail with His Divine Person and human nature.

and for those tossing around the "spirit of antichrist" from 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 1:7- that has to do with those who deny Christ has come in the flesh and remains in the flesh in the present. In other words Christ is permanently both God and man, human and Divine. Christ is one Person ( Divine) having 2 inseparable and indivisible natures.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

How could he only suffer in human nature and not in both? Isn't this Nestorianism?

He suffered as the Divine Son of God. His Person is Divine. Natures do not suffer- Persons suffer.

 

[civic]

Summarize the main points of difference between the Alexandrian and Antiochene approaches to Christology.

​

Anhypostasia is essential to a trinitarian understanding of the person of the God-man. It is impossible to be a trinitarian without a confession of it. Classical Christology has described the relationship of the two natures of Christ by using the rather arcane-sounding terms anhypostasis and enhypostasis. What does this mean? Well, firstly, the human nature of Jesus has no hypostasis, or "person", of its own, but subsists only as the human nature of the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity. His human nature is anhypostatic in that it has no personhood, or independent reality of its own (the word 'subsists' is used rather than 'exists’' to indicate this dependence): rather it is hypostatized in union with, in (so, enhypostasis), the person of the Logos. This is how Chalcedon is explained: we have in Jesus one person in two natures. The subject of this human nature is divine. Thus Jesus is a divine person and not a human person! Here's Louis Berkhof, A Summary of Christian Doctrine, The Banner of Truth Trust, 1938, p. 87:

"Christ has a human nature, but He is not a human person. The Person of the Mediator is the unchangeable Son of God. In the incarnation He did not change into a human person; neither did He adopt a human person. He simply assumed, in addition to His divine nature, a human nature, which did not develop into an independent personality, but became personal in the Person of the Son of God. After this assumption of human nature the Person of the Mediator is not only divine but divine-human; He is the Godman, possessing all the essential qualities of both the human and the divine nature. He has both a divine and a human consciousness, as well as a human and a divine will. This is a mystery which we cannot fathom."

 

[Ladodgers6]

He suffered as the Divine Son of God. His Person is Divine. Natures do not suffer- Persons suffer.

I hear what you are saying, Civic. But doesn't God show these emotions in his divine nature? Love, Anger, Sorrow, Joy, Wrath, Pleasure, Displeasure and so forth. Isn't separating Christ when feeling pain, and suffering in the flesh with his divine nature nestorianism?​

 

[civic]

I hear what you are saying, Civic. But doesn't God show these emotions in his divine nature? Love, Anger, Sorrow, Joy, Wrath, Pleasure, Displeasure and so forth. Isn't separating Christ when feeling pain, and suffering in the flesh with his divine nature nestorianism?​

Absolutely thats my point. Natures do not suffer people/persons do. We are saying the same thing just differently. See Berkoff in my previous post on the 2 natures with Chalcedon. I'll try and check in later have to get ready for work.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Summarize the main points of difference between the Alexandrian and Antiochene approaches to Christology.

​

Anhypostasia is essential to a trinitarian understanding of the person of the God-man. It is impossible to be a trinitarian without a confession of it. Classical Christology has described the relationship of the two natures of Christ by using the rather arcane-sounding terms anhypostasis and enhypostasis. What does this mean? Well, firstly, the human nature of Jesus has no hypostasis, or "person", of its own, but subsists only as the human nature of the Son of God, the second person of the Trinity. His human nature is anhypostatic in that it has no personhood, or independent reality of its own (the word 'subsists' is used rather than 'exists’' to indicate this dependence): rather it is hypostatized in union with, in (so, enhypostasis), the person of the Logos. This is how Chalcedon is explained: we have in Jesus one person in two natures. The subject of this human nature is divine. Thus Jesus is a divine person and not a human person! Here's Louis Berkhof, A Summary of Christian Doctrine, The Banner of Truth Trust, 1938, p. 87:

"Christ has a human nature, but He is not a human person. The Person of the Mediator is the unchangeable Son of God. In the incarnation He did not change into a human person; neither did He adopt a human person. He simply assumed, in addition to His divine nature, a human nature, which did not develop into an independent personality, but became personal in the Person of the Son of God. After this assumption of human nature the Person of the Mediator is not only divine but divine-human; He is the Godman, possessing all the essential qualities of both the human and the divine nature. He has both a divine and a human consciousness, as well as a human and a divine will. This is a mystery which we cannot fathom."

Okay Berkhof is saying that Christ possess all the essential qualities of a human and divine nature. So, how can he not feel pain and suffering if he possessed human qualities to experience them?

 

[Ladodgers6]

Absolutely thats my point. Natures do not suffer people/persons do. We are saying the same thing just differently. See Berkoff in my previous post on the 2 natures with Chalcedon. I'll try and check in later have to get ready for work.

Every human nature possess these faculties, yes? We experience and feel pain in our human nature, correct? The human nature comes with nerve endings, pain signals that are sent to the brain that registers pain. If I hit myself or fall and break my leg or get into an accident, I will experience pain and suffer, yes? And yes people do also cause us pain and suffering physically and emotionally but all of this is experiences in our human nature. There's no way around it.​

 

[Carbon]

Here is the thing natures do not die, natures are not persons. Persons die, are persecuted, loved etc...... Jesus is a Divine Person not a human person ( Nestorianism ). Whatever happened to Jesus happened to a Divine Person, not a nature. This is sound Christology. @Binyawmene . It was not a nature that suffered and died it was a Person, that Person was Divine. This is why at its very core its an issue with the Tri-Unity of God.

hope this helps !!!

I seems you're trying your best to explain it all away,

 

[Carbon]

He is a Divine Person not a human person.

Yes. Who is 100% God and 100% man

 

[Carbon]

I understand that his divine nature cannot experience death and decay, but God demonstrated his feelings, such as being angry, happy, joyful, having sorrow, judgemental, merciful, graceful. Wouldn't he experience these feelings of pain in the human nature? I need to research this further.​

Since Jesus is a divine person, all of His person suffered.

 

[Carbon]

If you think that Jesus is not human, then you are not a Christian.

Amen brother!

 

[Carbon]

I hear what you are saying, Civic. But doesn't God show these emotions in his divine nature? Love, Anger, Sorrow, Joy, Wrath, Pleasure, Displeasure and so forth. Isn't separating Christ when feeling pain, and suffering in the flesh with his divine nature nestorianism?​

@civic
If we would just say whats in the word and go by that, it would be plain to see who Jesus is. For those who say they do, why argue and play with things and make Jesus into something he is not?
Scripture says he was human just as his brethren because he had to be.
Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. Heb 2:17.

In every respect? Wouldn't this include humanity? But isn't he God? Of course, He is God.
Is there a mystery here? There should be.

Just because there are some mysteries in these things, does not give us the right to adjust and explain things away. Just accept the fact there will be mysteries. God does not have to explain everything to us, I guess we just have to trust Him. “The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law. Deut 29:29.

 

[David1701]

Read your Orthodox Creeds on the Trinity and Deity of Christ.

Christ is a Divine Person(not a human person which is Netorianism, 2 persons) who assumed a human nature. See the Chalcedon and Athanasian creeds that go into detail with His Divine Person and human nature.

and for those tossing around the "spirit of antichrist" from 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 1:7- that has to do with those who deny Christ has come in the flesh and remains in the flesh in the present. In other words Christ is permanently both God and man, human and Divine. Christ is one Person ( Divine) having 2 inseparable and indivisible natures.

hope this helps !!!

This sounds very much like sophistry to me. If the creeds say the same thing, then they are using "person" with an arcane meaning; and I don't subscribe to that kind of gobbledygook.

Do you have some, hitherto unknown, definition of "person", in which someone can be human, without that humanity (including reason, conscience, memory, personality, etc.) being part of what he is as a person?

What about when Jesus (the Person) said that no-one knew the day or the hour, not even he, but only the Father in heaven? Was he not still a person, just because he limited himself, at that moment, to what he knew as man?

Christ is indeed one Person - that person being human and divine (two natures, one Person).

 

[David1701]

He suffered as the Divine Son of God. His Person is Divine. Natures do not suffer- Persons suffer.

Ah; so, you're saying that Jesus did not suffer as a human. He didn't thirst, or suffer physical pain, on the cross ... now, what's the name of that heresy again?

 

[Carbon]

This sounds very much like sophistry to me. If the creeds say the same thing, then they are using "person" with an arcane meaning; and I don't subscribe to that kind of gobbledygook.

Do you have some, hitherto unknown, definition of "person", in which someone can be human, without that humanity (including reason, conscience, memory, personality, etc.) being part of what he is as a person?

What about when Jesus (the Person) said that no-one knew the day or the hour, not even he, but only the Father in heaven? Was he not still a person, just because he limited himself, at that moment, to what he knew as man?

Christ is indeed one Person - that person being human and divine (two natures, one Person).

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14.

 

[Carbon]

Ah; so, you're saying that Jesus did not suffer as a human. He didn't thirst, or suffer physical pain, on the cross ... now, what's the name of that heresy again?

Some people's objective is to prove the PSA wrong. It cannot be done by using the bible.