Why Have You Forsaken Me?

[Mr GLee]

The death of Christ.

The gospel tells us that our creator has become our redeemer. It announces that the son of God has become man "for us and for our salvation" and has died on the cross to save us from eternal judgment. The basic description of the saving death of Christ in the Bible is as a propitiation, that is, as that which quenched God's wrath against us by obliterating our sins from his sight. God's wrath is His righteousness reacting against unrighteousness; it shows itself in retributive justice. But Christ has shielded us from the nightmare prospect of retributive justice by becoming our representative substitute, in obedience to his Father's will, and receiving the wages of our sin in our place.

By this means justice has been done, for the sins of all that will ever be pardoned were judged and punished in the person of God the Son, and it is on this basis that pardon is now offered to us offenders. Redeeming love and retributive justice joined hands, so to speak, at Calvary, for there God showed himself to be "just, and the justifier of him that hath faith in Jesus."

Do you understand this? If you do, you are now seeing to the very heart of the Christian gospel.

J. I. Packer

I would think the other way around , Son of man became Son of God.

It would seem the gospel announces that sons of man, dying mankind, dead in trespass and sin without God as a hope in this present world. Miraculously, became a sons of God the Faithful creator , born again from above. Remember in John 6 many disciples walked away and no longer followed Jesus the Son of man when Jesus said of his dying flesh "it profits for zero"

None of the work is attributed to the Son of man . The Son displayed invisible labor of the Father love .As a living sacrifice (no dead sacrifices)

He poured out His Holy Spirit on dying flesh in jeopardy of His own Holy Spirit. He shares his mighty faith as a understanding that he works with us . . the power to raise us to new spiritual life or understanding . He gives us a little of His faith calling us "ye of little faith" (used five times) All glory goes to the Faithful Father.

The Faith of the Father can move mountains . Let it be moved and it was . new creatures

 

[Mr GLee]

The highest consideration is the truth of the matter and not one's presuppositions of what scriptures say or do not say.
That would apply to all of us.

Anselm is not an early church father

If the final "it" in your question refers to "Penal Substitutionary Atonement (PSA)" specifically then I can only offer a reserved agreement to the fact that PSA is indeed older than our generation. In that regard you and I would not be living in the first generation to look at it. That is interesting enough. If you meant something else by "it", then my response may vary.

Agree, which is why it is very important to point out that neither Augustine nor Athanasius taught Penal Substitutionary Atonement as presented in Reformed Theology.

Early church fathers? I could never understand why? Why???

When and from who did the commandment comes to study thier private interpretations as person commentaries called heresies ? Whats the hope? They can give a better understanding then the Spirit of Christ who works in his children ?

I would offer.We must be careful how we hear who we say we do .The father of lies is quick to snatch the seed

What do early church fathers have to do with the loving commandment of the living word below? We have the same perfect word sealed till the end of time .And we are warned of those who do say we need a man to teach us (false apostles, false prophets) bringing false prophecy as the oral traditions of dying early church fathers.

2 Timothy 2:15-16 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I use to think at way a long time ago. I was hoping you were going to research it for yourself. Do you want me to tell you or do you want to research it first?

​

FIRST one would have to CARE what it means. Since I don't, no further explanation is required.

 

[Ladodgers6]

FIRST one would have to CARE what it means. Since I don't, no further explanation is required.

kool...have a nice day.

 

[civic]

Unless you want to reject certain Trinity and Hypostatic Union frameworks.



Because the Bible says "through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God," Hebrews 9:14.

How can that happen if the Father forsaken him?

Brother lets not forget this passage that also confirms the others you referenced.

If God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself ( it took place at the cross, nowhere else ) then there was not an actual forsaking of the Son by the Father. There would be a contradiction.

2 Corinthians 5:19
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Brother lets not forget this passage that also confirms the others you referenced.

If God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself ( it took place at the cross, nowhere else ) then there was not an actual forsaking of the Son by the Father. There would be a contradiction.

2 Corinthians 5:19
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Jesus does say the words, "“Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” I am curious to know what do you think Jesus means by these words.

 

[Mr GLee]

Brother lets not forget this passage that also confirms the others you referenced.

If God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself ( it took place at the cross, nowhere else ) then there was not an actual forsaking of the Son by the Father. There would be a contradiction.

2 Corinthians 5:19
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

God is Christ the anointing teching Holy Spirit. Pouring out his Holy Spirt life on dying flesh in jeapordy of his own Spirit life as faith.

He gives us little of His great power, calls us those of little faith. previously have none dead in trespasses and sin without God in this present world . Gives us just enough faith as empower to please him when yoked as one

Two kind of prophesied demonstrations . The bloody, the cross a demonstration to the whole world all the nations .giving a understanding that the Satan inspired mob did the work of sufferings the body of Jesus the Son of man dying mankind .

I think the more popular of the three demonstrations. Some People love to see blood that demonstrating was a sign to the whole world in a hope they might seek the light of living word

I would say the better demonstration reconciling to the world is the first demonstration that began in the garden of Gethsemane. There the father and Son began the suffering the pangs of hell sufferings unto death. Fhe Father striking the Son of man bruised his heel crushed the head of the serpent The prophesied work of two . Three times in his agony he sought for strength from the apostles Three times the father put them asleep it fulfilled the two prophecies of two working as one. The third the demonstration of the tomb the demonstration of faith (the unseen things of God)

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Isaiah 53:3-5 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Prophecy for believers. . . . sign to wonder after . . .to draw unbelievers

 

[Carbon]

Brother lets not forget this passage that also confirms the others you referenced.

If God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself ( it took place at the cross, nowhere else ) then there was not an actual forsaking of the Son by the Father. There would be a contradiction.

2 Corinthians 5:19
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Respectfully, weak argument.

 

[Carbon]

Respectfully, weak argument.

@civic very weak.


But, hello, been a while, hope all is well.

 

[Carbon]

Jesus does say the words, "“Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” I am curious to know what do you think Jesus means by these words.

Some may say, he was just quoting scripture. But in fact, he was fulfilling it, scripture is all about him.

 

[Carbon]

Brother lets not forget this passage that also confirms the others you referenced.

If God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself ( it took place at the cross, nowhere else ) then there was not an actual forsaking of the Son by the Father. There would be a contradiction.

2 Corinthians 5:19
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

And maybe @David1701 can help you?

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/why-have-you-forsaken-me.1596/post-66363

 

[makesends]

Brother lets not forget this passage that also confirms the others you referenced.

If God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself ( it took place at the cross, nowhere else ) then there was not an actual forsaking of the Son by the Father. There would be a contradiction.

2 Corinthians 5:19
namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their wrongdoings against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

An action done by the Father through Christ does not imply that Jesus was not forsaken on the cross by the Father.

Also, the supposed contradiction is denied by the idea of temporal fact vs. eternal existence. Jesus is not ULTIMATELY forsaken, but only as concerns sin, being made sin for us and paying the penalty thereof. His body did not see corruption, and he was not forsaken in the realm of the dead, but was resurrected, just as David said.

You are comparing apples with oranges.

 

[civic]

And maybe @David1701 can help you?

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/why-have-you-forsaken-me.1596/post-66363

Here is the thing natures do not die, natures are not persons. Persons die, are persecuted, loved etc...... Jesus is a Divine Person not a human person ( Nestorianism ). Whatever happened to Jesus happened to a Divine Person, not a nature. This is sound Christology. @Binyawmene . It was not a nature that suffered and died it was a Person, that Person was Divine. This is why at its very core its an issue with the Tri-Unity of God.

hope this helps !!!

 

[civic]

An action done by the Father through Christ does not imply that Jesus was not forsaken on the cross by the Father.

Also, the supposed contradiction is denied by the idea of temporal fact vs. eternal existence. Jesus is not ULTIMATELY forsaken, but only as concerns sin, being made sin for us and paying the penalty thereof. His body did not see corruption, and he was not forsaken in the realm of the dead, but was resurrected, just as David said.

You are comparing apples with oranges.

When we read the many psalms of David like the one we are debating we read that David felt abandon, deserted, alone etc......... But was he actually deserted, alone, abandon by God ? no he was not. God was always with David even though he at times felt distant from God. David was a sinner and he was not abandon by God. So if he was not abandon neither was Christ.

The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.

Psalm 22:24
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.


Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice,"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.


John 16:32
"A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."


Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

And we know that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself on the cross therefor knowing the Father and Son were not separated and Jesus was never forsaken

2 Corinthians 5:14-21
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.21 God made him who had no sin to be sin]for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God

God says many many times in scripture- I WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU OR FORSAKE YOU

10 plus passages below about Gods everlasting promise to never leave you, abandon you or forsake you. Psalm 22:1 cannot mean the opposite of all these passages. That is a blatant contradiction.

Psalm 94:14- For the Lord will not forsake his people; he will not abandon his heritage

1 Samuel 12:22
Indeed, for the sake of His great name, the LORD will not abandon His people, because He was pleased to make you His own.

1 Chronicles 28:20
Then David said to Solomon his son, “Be strong and courageous and do it. Do not be afraid and do not be dismayed, for the Lord God, even my God, is with you. He will not leave you or forsake you

2 Corinthians 4:9- persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed.

1 Kings 8:57- The Lord our God be with us, as he was with our fathers. May he not leave us or forsake us,

Hebrews 13:5- Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, for God has said: "Never will I leave you, never will I forsake you."

Romans 8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

Psalm 9:10
And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee

Psalm 37:25, 28
I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread: For the LORD loves justice and will not forsake His saints. They are preserved forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off.

Isaiah 41:17- The poor and needy seek water, but there is none; their tongues are parched with thirst. I, the LORD, will answer them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them

The psalmist in psalm 22 felt forsaken yet he was not forsaken. he felt alone yet God heard his prayers and did not leave him alone as verse 24 says.

one one may feel may not be true. I can feel as if God is not hearing me yet God does hear me when I cry out in my prayers, sufferings, times of lonliness etc......

even if I say it was not a declaration and Jesus really felt like He was forsaken doesn't mean He was forsaken. I can feel like God is not listening to my prayers because He is silent but that does not mean He is not there with me just because I feel like I'm alone.

It Jesus felt forsaken it doesn't mean He was.

Jesus did not know the day/hour of His return- does that make Him not God ?

not knowing something and feeling something does not make it mean Jesus was not God or that God can be separated from God which is an oxymoron. Jesus as a man might of felt alone as He was suffering for our sins and bearing them. That doesn't mean He was alone since plenty of Scriptures say that God was with Him and heard His prayers.

conclusion: God promised sinners who believe and trust Him that He will never leave, forsake or abandon them- let alone the sinless one and only begotten Son who is holy,righteous and sinless.

hope this helps !!!

 

[Arial]

Here is the thing natures do not die, natures are not persons. Persons die, are persecuted, loved etc...... Jesus is a Divine Person not a human person ( Nestorianism ). Whatever happened to Jesus happened to a Divine Person, not a nature. This is sound Christology. @Binyawmene . It was not a nature that suffered and died it was a Person, that Person was Divine. This is why at its very core its an issue with the Tri-Unity of God.

hope this helps !!!

You still have not actually addressed the issue but moved the goal post instead. Changed the subject.

It is not the hypostatic union that addressed the question of when Jesus cried out (and He did) "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" did He mean what He said?

IOW was He really suffering, really in pain, really forsaken? And if so, why, and in what way was He being forsaken?

He was forsaken as to His suffering and death. God did not rescue Him from it. And the why is because it was necessary for the substitute for the sinner to bear the just punishment for the sins committed by the sinner, in order for them to be forgiven in the sinner. It was the whole purpose of His coming as one of us, to die in our place. To say it was His human nature that died is simply a way of saying that His human flesh died, just as ours will. It is not something to pick apart and quibble over, in order to avoid answering the OP question.

 

[Mr GLee]

An action done by the Father through Christ does not imply that Jesus was not forsaken on the cross by the Father.

The Father is Christ (the anointing one.) the husband. The anointing teacher the Holy Spirit .

In that way he warns of those who say we do need drying mankind to teach us. Believers can preach, Christ in us alone teaches, comforts, guides and brings to our memory the previous things he has taught us . (John 14)

1 John 2:26-27 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Satan who has no form as the spirit of error would have mankind believe God is a dying Jewish man as King of kings.

Not the most popular Idea but does ring true. I believe it can be seen garden of Gethsemane. as that in which I would call the parable of the "bruised heel" . The beginning of the promised three days and nights demonstration ,prophesied in Genesis 3:15 with Isaiah 53. The promised work of two. as the Father struct the Son of man Jesus with the letter of the law death, wounding him for our transgression

In the garden of Gethsemane the Father bruised the heel of the son of man Jesus. causing him to suffer unto death (not dead) A living sacrifice of Jesus the Son of man. Who again and again three times was bruised as the Father struct him with the letter of the law (death). causing Jesus to cry out for mercy ( why have you forsaken) asking for strength and encouragement from the apostles. Three times the Father put them asleep . to establish the promised prophecy of two working as one .Three is a crowd

A place we can find oneself in. . with one resort look up to were our strength comes from. Then we can strengthen them that fall asleep

Then moved on to part two the hill of the Skull, the cross, the bloody denonstration .Another kind of purpose also used represent the gospel .
Then the last demonstration the tomb the demonstration of faith (the unseen) things as power of eternal God

Prohecy (Genesis 3:15 with Isaiah 53) fulfilled prophecy for the believer . The cross a sign to the unbelieving world all the nations. The cross the more popular. Some love to see the blood slows down traffic

I am reminded of Exodus . Christ who instructed the Israelites to put blood around the opening of thier dwelling. He knew they walked by sight after the things seen (no faith) He therefore said when he sees the blood. Blood like water sometimes mixed together to represent the whole. Both are used to represent the work of the invisible head, Christ. . . . the husband

 

[Mr GLee]

Here is the thing natures do not die, natures are not persons. Persons die, are persecuted, loved etc...... Jesus is a Divine Person not a human person ( Nestorianism ). Whatever happened to Jesus happened to a Divine Person, not a nature. This is sound Christology. @Binyawmene . It was not a nature that suffered and died it was a Person, that Person was Divine. This is why at its very core its an issue with the Tri-Unity of God.

hope this helps !!!

,I would think Devine is supernatural, Without beginning or nature. Without mother or father. without descent, without beginning of Spirit life or end thereof

Divinity dwelling in bodies of death Pouring out His spirit life on dying mankind in jeapordy of his own Spirit life.

Yoked with Emanuel or daily burden can lighter, We pray give us that bread "hidden manna" that we might be empowered to do his good will

Christ in us and not Christ is us

 

[makesends]

When we read the many psalms of David like the one we are debating we read that David felt abandon, deserted, alone etc......... But was he actually deserted, alone, abandon by God ? no he was not. God was always with David even though he at times felt distant from God. David was a sinner and he was not abandon by God. So if he was not abandon neither was Christ.

The following scriptures affirm that Jesus' relationship with the Father on the cross was still there and not broken.

Psalm 22:24
For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help.


Luke 23:46
Jesus called out with a loud voice,"Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.


John 16:32
"A time is coming and in fact has come when you will be scattered, each to your own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me."


Hebrews 5:7
During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with fervent cries and tears to the one who could save him from death, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.

And we know that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself on the cross therefor knowing the Father and Son were not separated and Jesus was never forsaken

2 Corinthians 5:14-21
For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.21 God made him who had no sin to be sin]for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God

God says many many times in scripture- I WILL NEVER LEAVE YOU OR FORSAKE YOU

10 plus passages below about Gods everlasting promise to never leave you, abandon you or forsake you. Psalm 22:1 cannot mean the opposite of all these passages. That is a blatant contradiction.

Psalm 94:14- For the Lord will not forsake his people; he will not abandon his heritage

1 Samuel 12:22
Indeed, for the sake of His great name, the LORD will not abandon His people, because He was pleased to make you His own.

1 Chronicles 28:20
Then David said to Solomon his son, “Be strong and courageous and do it. Do not be afraid and do not be dismayed, for the Lord God, even my God, is with you. He will not leave you or forsake you

2 Corinthians 4:9- persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed.

1 Kings 8:57- The Lord our God be with us, as he was with our fathers. May he not leave us or forsake us,

Hebrews 13:5- Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, for God has said: "Never will I leave you, never will I forsake you."

Romans 8:35
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword?

Psalm 9:10
And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, LORD, hast not forsaken them that seek thee

Psalm 37:25, 28
I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread: For the LORD loves justice and will not forsake His saints. They are preserved forever, but the offspring of the wicked will be cut off.

Isaiah 41:17- The poor and needy seek water, but there is none; their tongues are parched with thirst. I, the LORD, will answer them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them

The psalmist in psalm 22 felt forsaken yet he was not forsaken. he felt alone yet God heard his prayers and did not leave him alone as verse 24 says.

one one may feel may not be true. I can feel as if God is not hearing me yet God does hear me when I cry out in my prayers, sufferings, times of lonliness etc......

even if I say it was not a declaration and Jesus really felt like He was forsaken doesn't mean He was forsaken. I can feel like God is not listening to my prayers because He is silent but that does not mean He is not there with me just because I feel like I'm alone.

It Jesus felt forsaken it doesn't mean He was.

Jesus did not know the day/hour of His return- does that make Him not God ?

not knowing something and feeling something does not make it mean Jesus was not God or that God can be separated from God which is an oxymoron. Jesus as a man might of felt alone as He was suffering for our sins and bearing them. That doesn't mean He was alone since plenty of Scriptures say that God was with Him and heard His prayers.

conclusion: God promised sinners who believe and trust Him that He will never leave, forsake or abandon them- let alone the sinless one and only begotten Son who is holy,righteous and sinless.

hope this helps !!!

I hope you can understand what I mean, here. I'm not saying that God ultimately abandoned him nor that Christ lost hope. But he was made sin, in our place. Which sin, God completely rejected. I have no reason, being ignorant of the dynamic of just what sin is, since I am ignorant of just what God is, since I am ignorant of the totality of infinity, to think that "made sin" is not entirely literal.

The cry was indeed of pain, and was from some form of eternal separation, I believe, yet not complete abandonment, unless the abandonment of his identification as sin. This is one of the main reasons why I believe that the Christ is God —no mere creature could do this and return.

 

[ReverendRV]

Hey Y'all; it's good to see the Thread active..

 

[ReverendRV]

Here is the thing natures do not die, natures are not persons. Persons die, are persecuted, loved etc...... Jesus is a Divine Person not a human person ( Nestorianism ). Whatever happened to Jesus happened to a Divine Person, not a nature. This is sound Christology. @Binyawmene . It was not a nature that suffered and died it was a Person, that Person was Divine. This is why at its very core its an issue with the Tri-Unity of God.

hope this helps !!!

Civic, was Jesus a Human Person before he died?