Total Depravity Explained Without Reference to the Human Will

[Carbon]

No I was not. And neither were you.

I became dead in my trespasses and sins when I sinned. There was nothing wrong with my spirit when God gave it to me when I was born.

Well, scripture strongly disagrees with you. Or, should I say, you disagree with scripture? Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

 

[Carbon]

Are you a Manichaeist?

I'm not a gnostic of any kind.

 

[Josheb]

But what is left out in your attempt to say why Adam and Eve sinned, is that though they were created able to die (mortal) they were not created corrupted by anything.

...nor were they created already dead in sin.

They were not created with a nature to sin, (which would be internal) but with the ability to do so (able to be corrupted.) What they lost was access to the tree that would keep them alive---therefore sin entered by one man and through that one man, to all men, and the penalty for sin is death. All sin because of Adam and all die because of Adam, though it is for our own sins that we are judged.

All die dead in sin.

No, that is not true. Books are written on the grace of God in salvation without any consideration of the doctrine of Total Depravity.

And they all miss an enormously important aspect of divine grace.

The topic was initially on Total Depravity, not the grace of God.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Grace is a completely different and separate issue.

Think of it as two concentric circles with the circle of TD on the inside and the circle of grace a MUCH larger ginormous circle encompassing TD. Plenty of other aspects of grace can fit inside the larger circle. TD just happens to be one of them.

Ignorance of the Law....

How about you find the point of what I said and discuss that? If you can't find it, let me know and I will try and clarify.

TD has nothing specifically to do with the Law of Moses, especially not any willful ignorance (which would be an indication of depravity).

The point the op is making is a sound. valid, and veracious one. TULIP is 100% about God, not humanity. TULIP is theocentric, not anthropocentric, God-centric, not humancentric. Each letter in the acronym can (and should) be explained using God alone. Each letter in the acronym can (and should) be explained without humanity as its source.

Total Depravity = Grace (alone) is necessary to save from sin.

No mention of sin's effect on the human at all. Yes, as TD is further explained the mention of humanity ensues but that is because it is humans and not kangaroos or kumquats that are being saved, not because humanity is at the center of the doctrine. The same holds true of ULIP.

We can discuss grace if you like, but I certainly do not want to do that confined within any notion of Total Depravity.

LOL! Then your participation in the thread will be brief !

There are five doctrines of grace in TULIP or, more accurately, five aspects of soteriological grace are ensconced in TULIP. It's not that grace is limited to TD or that grace is limited to only five conditions. I have read through the entire thread yet, but I don't see anyone saying anything even remotely close to that premise. What is being said (and @Arial can correct this if I err), is that when it comes to how a person is saved from sin and wrath there are five aspects of divine grace that are germane in the monergistic soteriology: Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints.

This op is specifically about how TD can and should be defined and understood without reference to the human will.

Everyone here knows I'm an equal-opportunity critic, a skeptic prone to and willing to find a flaw in any op. While I might word things a little differently, Arial has done an excellent job articulating TD without reference to human will, especially sinful human will. It is only by God's grace that any may partake in the tree of life. Antithesis cannot obtain Thesis, sin cannot obtain righteousness, and there is no dialectic, no synthesis, no synergy by which that can change.

 

[JIM]

Well, scripture strongly disagrees with you. Or, should I say, you disagree with scripture? Romans 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

There is nothing there that says that either of us was born dead in sin.

Rom 2:14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.

 

[Carbon]

There is nothing there that says that either of us was born dead in sin.

It's simple grammar.

 

[JIM]

And they all miss an enormously important aspect of divine grace.

You apparently think that. If so, you really do not understand the grace of God.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

The grace of God is real, it is true. Total Depravity not so.

This op is specifically about how TD can and should be defined and understood without reference to the human will.

It has nothing to do with the human will, nor God's will. It, TD, should be set aside as the heresy that it is.

 

[JIM]

It's simple grammar.

And that is simple eisegesis.

 

[Carbon]

And that is simple eisegesis.

Okay, have it your way.

 

[Josheb]

You apparently think that. If so, you really do not understand the grace of God.

Ad hominem noted.

The grace of God is real, it is true.

Non sequitur noted.

Total Depravity not so.

The falsity of the statement is noted.

It has nothing to do with the human will,

Which is what the op assets.

nor God's will.

hmmmmm..... grace has nothing to do with God's will?

It, TD, should be set aside as the heresy that it is.

Ask @Arial if she'd be willing to have you hijack her op so you can prove that statement. Whether heresy or not, the point of the op is that is that TD can and should be understood as having nothing directly to do with the will of the sinner.

I am not dead in Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:22 states otherwise.

There was nothing wrong with my spirit when God gave it to me when I was born.

Who said there was?

There is not one word in Romans 9 that says that God ever did or ever would impute the sin of one to another.

There are a host of other scriptures that teach that. Read HERE.

We can discuss grace if you like, but I certainly do not want to do that confined within any notion of Total Depravity.

Then, as I posted previously, your participation in the thread will be brief because this op is about TD..... or the op will not be discussed.

 

[Ladodgers6]

I am not dead in Adam.

There's only two places people are in; dead in Adam, or Alive in Christ' there is no third category between death and life.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Just like everyone else. No

Exactly, still believing the lies of the serpent. "You will not surely die."

 

[Carbon]

Exactly, still believing the lies of the serpent. "You will not surely die."

Yep. They believe Finney and Wigglesworth.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Yep. They believe Finney and Wigglesworth.

Did you know or see that Brazil hosts what is called, "The Devil's Parade"? They praise and worship the Devil and mock Jesus as some guy dressed up as the Devil and another guy dressed up as Jesus and the Devil beats him on Jesus on the street during the parade along with guys dressed up as demons who also beats on Jesus.

If this is already difficult for some Christians to stomach, one of Salgueiro’s floats featured a huge devil. There was a considerable uproar. It was considered an offense to the Christian faith, a “profanation” of the most serious battle of God vs. the devil. Indeed, Carnival is ironic and irreverent. The devil’s parade was meant to be a critique of an exacerbated moralistic agenda, held by many, mainly white, right-wing evangelicals and Catholics in Brazil and seen as repressive rather than liberating.​

 

[Carbon]

Did you know or see that Brazil hosts what is called, "The Devil's Parade"? They praise and worship the Devil and mock Jesus as some guy dressed up as the Devil and another guy dressed up as Jesus and the Devil beats him on Jesus on the street during the parade along with guys dressed up as demons who also beats on Jesus.

If this is already difficult for some Christians to stomach, one of Salgueiro’s floats featured a huge devil. There was a considerable uproar. It was considered an offense to the Christian faith, a “profanation” of the most serious battle of God vs. the devil. Indeed, Carnival is ironic and irreverent. The devil’s parade was meant to be a critique of an exacerbated moralistic agenda, held by many, mainly white, right-wing evangelicals and Catholics in Brazil and seen as repressive rather than liberating.​

Nope. Haven't seen it. Dont want to see it.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Nope. Haven't seen it. Dont want to see it.

A few days later a flood hit the town, destroying over 400 homes, leaving people homeless, and killing over 50 people.

 

[Arial]

Are you referring to 2 Corinthians 5:21?

That is only one place that shows that those Jesus died for have their sins imputed to Him in order to take upon Himself the just punishment we deserve. Do you want me to give more?

 

[JIM]

That is only one place that shows that those Jesus died for have their sins imputed to Him in order to take upon Himself the just punishment we deserve. Do you want me to give more?

More would be helpful since 2 Corinthians doesn't say that sins are imputed to Jesus. It says that Jesus was made sin, i.e., a sin-offering for the sins of the world. To impute sin to someone means that they have committed a wrong against God. For God to have imputed sin, any sin, to Jesus would mean that He was guilty and therefore was justly punished. That was not the case. Jesus was innocent and was the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world.

 

[Arial]

Not one of those says that we are sinners because Adam sinned. 1 Corinthians 15:21-45 is speaking of physical death and resurrection. Being in Adam is being human and subject to physical death. Physical death was an integral part of the creation. Nothing physical is immortal.

I do wish you could stick to and address the subject of the OP instead of moving away from it. But FYI the resurrected and glorified Christ was physical. The believers resurrected and glorified bodies will be physical, immortal and incorruptible.

Spiritual death is the penalty for sin, not physical death. That was true for Adam and that is true for us. In 1 Corinthians 15:26, for those in Christ, death, the last enemy to be destroyed, is spiritual death. He did not destroy physical death. Everyone, save those still alive when he returns, will die physically. In Christ we will still die physically, but we will not die the second death (Rev 20:6).

The last enemy to be destroyed is death itself. This happens when Jesus returns and the dead in Christ are raised imperishable and those alive at His return are changed----imperishable 1 Cor 15




50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54 When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55 “O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Rev 21:1-4 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adornded for her husband, And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things--- have passed away."

 

[Josheb]

Personally, I find A. W. Pink a little too determinist but, on this occasion, he correctly explained reality.

"Whilst Divine power up-holds him [the sinner] he is preserved from plunging still deeper into sin; let that power be withdrawn and he falls - his own weight (of sin) drags him down." (from "The Sovereignty of God")​

It is by grace we have been saved because the sinfully dead and enslaved sinner cannot save himself from sin.

 

[Arial]

More would be helpful since 2 Corinthians doesn't say that sins are imputed to Jesus. It says that Jesus was made sin, i.e., a sin-offering for the sins of the world. To impute sin to someone means that they have committed a wrong against God. For God to have imputed sin, any sin, to Jesus would mean that He was guilty and therefore was justly punished. That was not the case. Jesus was innocent and was the perfect sacrifice for the sins of the world.

If what you say is true above, then you would Truly have a God who bypassed His justice, and simply sent His Son to suffer and die. It truly would have been God having a human sacrifice to appease Him in the same way that pagans offered human sacrifice to their gods.

Sin exacts a price. And that price is death and the wrath of God. It was sin---the whole problem with Adam forward---that Jesus was undoing. He was undoing what Adam did in the only way it could be undone. As a perfectly righteous ransom. Paying the debt owed for the one who owed it. A substitute. Our sins imputed to Christ on the cross, does not mean that Jesus Himself became a sinner. It means that He bore the punishment for the believer's sins, instead of the believer. And what is it that God's justice demands of the sinner and sin? Death and the wrath of God in judgement. Jesus suffered that wrath on His body and He died. What appeared as His defeat, was His victory.



Is 53:6; 1 Peter 2:24;

Now, can we get back to the OP?