The Rapture

[ReverendRV]

I'm about to read this...

Four Views on the Millennium - Study Resources

Four Views on the Millennium includes The Views; Dispensational Premillennialism; Historical Premillennialism; Postmillennialism; Amillennialism and Conclusion

www.blueletterbible.org

After I read it, I may add it to my Thread about an Introduction to Eschatology...

I read it...

Everything is as I remember it; everything is as I thought. I still like Amillenialism best; go figure. Raise a child in the way he should go, and he will not depart from it. Y'all often hear me talk about Positive Reasons to be a Calvinist. Positive Reasons for Amillenialism are why I like it. I still think there are Positive Reasons for people to favor other Schemes of Eschatology; Positives are always Positives...

Perhaps it's time to crack open a 5th; a fifth Scheme, that is. One which allows each Positive Reason to be in one new Scheme...

Y'all know how eclectic I am...


How about something like, 'We are in the Millenial Kingdom now, and there will be a seven year Tribulation like Premillenial Dispensational Eschatology describes; without a Secret Rapture, before Christ returns to Judge the world'?

 

[ChristB4us]

The Rapture.

For those of you who may not know, the Rapture conveys the idea of the transporting of believers from earth to heaven at Christ's second coming. As far as dispensationalists are concerned they believe the Rapture refers to Christ's secret coming when all the believers are suddenly removed from the earth before the great tribulation.

Those who believe this secret coming believe that the event takes place 7 years before Christ returns to earth. These hold to a premillennial, pre-trib view of the rapture. This is also what dispensationalists believe. I am not an expert on this so if there are some dispy's who disagree please bring it up for correction or debate.

I am not a premillennial, pretrib or dispensationalist. I am an Amillennialist.
I believe Jesus returns at the end of the church age, or the time of the great apostasy which happens immediately before the return of Christ. Which marks the end of the millennial age on the earth.

The great apostasy is happening now in the churches. It started back in Paul's days as that iniquity was already at work 2 Thessalonians 2:7 for how already saved believers believe the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit by a sign or even sinners in seeking to receive the Holy Spirit by a sign at salvation for why God will permit that strong delusion to occur in Revelation 2:9-12.

To expose that lie, Paul reminded believers of the tradition taught of us in 2 Thessalonians 2;13-15 that we had received the sanctification of the Spirit & the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel. Below is the ink to that chapter.

2 Thessalonians 2nd Chapter

Paul went on to the next chapter in addressing those that were falling away from the faith in his day as it was a commandment from the Lord to withdraw from them that were not of faith, that were not walking after the tradition taught of us and are "disorderly" as they were in Azusa Street Revival, that baptism with the Holy Ghost with evidence of tongues stemmed from that as well as that Welch Revival before that, as we have that teaching today whereby holy laughter movement, Pensacola Outpouring, Toronto's Blessings, slain in the spirit, being drunk in the spirit, and even Ernest Angeley's healing Crusade where he would announce when the supposed "Holy Spirit" is "falling" on already saved believers, causing them to fall backwards in receiving their miracles.

Think believers will still be holding assemblies at the end of the great tribulation when these apostasy comes with the beats waging war on them?

2 Thessalonians 3rd Chapter This commandment to withdraw is in these latter days as it was in paul's days, not at the end of the great tribulation.

I dont disagree with a rapture, just the time in which it takes place.

Here is where I believe the Rapture takes place. Christ's second coming.

and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 At that time there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left. Matthew 24.

Are you applying this as the bad guys are taken away or the good guys are taken away before that destruction comes on the earth?

“Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you must be ready as well; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

When saved believes believe the lie that they can receive the Holy Spirit by a sign or when sinners that believe are seeking proof of their salvation by receiving the Holy Spirit by a sign, thus suffering a thief to break through, they are committing spiritual adultery per Matthew 12:38-40

Matthew 12:38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Although still saved, since faith came and the Holy Spirit came by hearing the word of God, they are at risk of being left behind unless they repent from seeking another filling of the Holy Spirit by a sign & shun that tongue for private use to pray normally before the Bridegroom comes.

 

[ChristB4us]

The Rapture.

For those of you who may not know, the Rapture conveys the idea of the transporting of believers from earth to heaven at Christ's second coming. As far as dispensationalists are concerned they believe the Rapture refers to Christ's secret coming when all the believers are suddenly removed from the earth before the great tribulation.

There is an order to the resurrections; Christ, the firstfruits which is the pre great tribulation rapture event when those abiding in Him, the dead are resurrected & the living that are transformed will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air to be forever with the Lord in Heaven to attend the Marriage Supper in Heaven.

Then there are they that be Christ's at His coming. When you read Zechariah 14:1-5 in how the Lord comes back with the saints to do battle against the world's armies marching against Jerusalem & this same army is clothed in fine linen, white & clean, for when the heaven open for Him to come back as the King of kings in Revelation 19:11-21 which is after having that Marriage supper in Heaven per Revelation 19:1-10, we see that the world's armies are defeated and Satan is in the pit for a thousand years BEFORE that "first" resurrection takes place after the great tribulation.

So if that first resurrection takes place after the defeat of the world's armies and Satan is in the pit for a thousand years, who were the saints that came back with the Lord before that first resurrection takes place? The pre great tribulation raptured saints as they be the firstfruits.

The reason why "first resurrection" was stated thus is because this resurrection was to take place "first" BEFORE the rest of the dead are resurrected later on at the Great White throne Judgment. This was not to infer that was THE first and only resurrection but this resurrection was to happen first before the rest of the dead are resurrected later on at the Great White Throne Judgement.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Verse 5 was written to clarify that is the reason what they had meant by saying "first resurrection".

God is coming to judge His House first as the Bridegroom, receiving the vessels unto honor in His House while leaving behind un-resurrected saints, both unrepentant saints and former believers that had died and the living that were not found abiding in Him to be resurrected to their everlasting shame as vessels unto dishonor in his House, vessels of wood & earth, but still in His House after the great tribulation.

Like Esau giving up his birthright for something temporary, the prodigal son may have given up his first inheritance for wild living and can never get it back, he is still son as God will perform a miracle by wiping the tears from their eyes to get past that loss in ceasing from weeping & gnashing their teeth.

Again, discipleship as that running that race by faith in Jesus Christ to help us to follow Him is not a works salvation when you see those left behind are still saved and in his House still. being His disciple in running that race is for the high prize of being received by Him as that vessel unto honor in His House which is by His grace & by His help as our confidence is in Him to finish His work in us thus that race to His glory.

 

[Wordsmith]

Obviously the second advent hasn’t happened yet, but the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in AD 70.

Only Matthew 24:2 can be said with any certainty to apply to the events of 70 AD. The entire Olivet Discourse is not about 70 AD. Shall we go verse by verse?

 

[Wordsmith]

The sky didn’t roll up in Isaiah 34, neither did it in Revelation 6:14, in AD 70.

Revelation 6:14 is not about 70 AD.

 

[Deleted member 6]

Only Matthew 24:2 can be said with any certainty to apply to the events of 70 AD. The entire Olivet Discourse is not about 70 AD. Shall we go verse by verse?

Go for it. Trust me, it won’t go well for you.

 

[Marty]

In God's plan that all ended on the cross.

Matthew 27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.


This had all been revealed before Revelation was written.



This is what Revelation is:

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Yes of course that happened at the cross that my point it’s who Jesus is and what He did I’m not saying that the new covenant happened at the time Revelation was written

The problem was that Israel rejected their Messiah and carried on the temple sacrifices so God used Rome to put an end to it. Revelation is Gods official certificate of divorce and punishment to Israel and marriage to the church

 

[Wordsmith]

Go for it. Trust me, it won’t go well for you.

You are the one making the 70AD claims show us that from the text verse by verse and I will respond. We will see how it goes.

 

[Deleted member 6]

You are the one making the 70AD claims show us that from the text verse by verse and I will respond. We will see how it goes.

First off, forgive me as that last post came off as being snooty, and that’s not my intent. It may take me a while to address this, but we will compare what we see in the Olivet Discourse and see which one is best. We can also use Mark 13 and Luke 22, as all three passages cover that Discourse.

 

[Leonard03782]

Now I remember why I don't like to debate Eschatology

I agree totally. This thread proves that people make it up as they go w/o regard to what the Scriptures actually have to say.
My only comment on the first six pages of this thread is that a great majority of the posters will discover that they were wrong.

 

[Wordsmith]

My only comment on the first six pages of this thread is that a great majority of the posters will discover that they were wrong.

If you have light to share please do.

 

[Hodgie]

I sure don't. I believe Satan is bound (symbolically speaking) so the gospel can do its work in all nations. And he roams around as a roaring lion.
But this lion is God's pawn as Luther said, "he is God's devil."
Just my two cents bro.

During the 1000 years, he is more than bound. He is also put into a bottomless pit and then a seal put on.
If anyone falls into a bottomless pit while they are bound, I can't see them walking around like a roaring lion.

 

[Carbon]

During the 1000 years, he is more than bound. He is also put into a bottomless pit and then a seal put on.
If anyone falls into a bottomless pit while they are bound, I can't see them walking around like a roaring lion.

I think the pit describes his limitations. In other words, the judgment against him stays and will not be changed.
There is nothing he can do about it.

I could be wrong.

 

[Hodgie]

I think the pit describes his limitations.

I think that you are right regarding it describes his limitations. Even in a figurative sense, a being who is bound and cast into a bottomless pit cannot really do anything. They are really out of the picture.
That does not mean that there will not be evil in the world. We are still here.

 

[Bluedragon]

I lean toward the "Left Behind " series of books ......because it connects a vast unexpected myriad of occurances that make sense. The sudden disappearance of children worldwide. Sudden disappearance of believers worldwide .....without warnig. The governments take over and declare "SEE! we told you! Move in to take complete cntrol...One world government and chaos worldwide at the exact same instance ....

I don't believe we see thousands float up into the air and vanish ....The verse says two in the field and one is suddenly gone. Not floating away ...

 

[Carbon]

I think that you are right regarding it describes his limitations. Even in a figurative sense, a being who is bound and cast into a bottomless pit cannot really do anything. They are really out of the picture.
That does not mean that there will not be evil in the world. We are still here.

Satan is really out of the picture as far as deceiving the nations and the pit proves that.

 

[Carbon]

I lean toward the "Left Behind " series of books ......because it connects a vast unexpected myriad of occurances that make sense. The sudden disappearance of children worldwide. Sudden disappearance of believers worldwide .....without warnig. The governments take over and declare "SEE! we told you! Move in to take complete cntrol...One world government and chaos worldwide at the exact same instance ....

I don't believe we see thousands float up into the air and vanish ....The verse says two in the field and one is suddenly gone. Not floating away ...

I once believed that also.

 

[ReverendRV]

I think that you are right regarding it describes his limitations. Even in a figurative sense, a being who is bound and cast into a bottomless pit cannot really do anything. They are really out of the picture.
That does not mean that there will not be evil in the world. We are still here.

In my thinking, this is foundational. It's part of the reason my Eschatology needs help...

 

[Leonard03782]

I hate debating on the end time prophecies. For the most part, people are not willing to listen to what the Scriptures have to say. Secondly, it seems that no one in this discussion has ever read anything other the book of Matthew. What they seem to be forgetting is that are more books in the NT other than the Gospels. What non-dispensationalists seem willing to ignore is this:

MATT 10:
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

I will now address the OP which is:

The Rapture.

For those of you who may not know, the Rapture conveys the idea of the transporting of believers from earth to heaven at Christ's second coming. As far as dispensationalists are concerned they believe the Rapture refers to Christ's secret coming when all the believers are suddenly removed from the earth before the great tribulation. Those who believe this secret coming believe that the event takes place 7 years before Christ returns to earth.

The idea that the Rapture is a secret snatching away of believers is a complete fabrication made up of those that oppose the idea of the Rapture. The is absolutely no mention of anything being secret in the bible. Unexplained yes, secret no. This is why GOD gave Israel the Prophets of the OT.
ISAIAH 46:
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

I am not a premillennial, pretrib or dispensationalist. I am an Amillennialist.
I believe Jesus returns at the end of the church age, or the time of the great apostasy which happens immediately before the return of Christ. Which marks the end of the millennial age on the earth.

Have you read the Book of Revelation? Just an honest question. Here is the second coming of Jesus as shown to the Apostle John.
Revelation 1:
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Revelation 19
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

I encourage you to read the rest of the chapter........and book. There is more to this chapter that i left out to save space. Also challenge you to find anything that looks like the Rapture in the chapters that immediately precede this one.

That is all for now. I need a break.

 

[Wordsmith]

I lean toward the "Left Behind " series of books ......because it connects a vast unexpected myriad of occurances that make sense. The sudden disappearance of children worldwide. Sudden disappearance of believers worldwide .....without warnig. The governments take over and declare "SEE! we told you! Move in to take complete cntrol...One world government and chaos worldwide at the exact same instance ....

I don't believe we see thousands float up into the air and vanish ....The verse says two in the field and one is suddenly gone. Not floating away ...

I too like Carbon used to believe this but it is not scriptural. There is no secret disappearance of believers anywhere in scripture.