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The Rapture

The Rapture.

For those of you who may not know, the Rapture conveys the idea of the transporting of believers from earth to heaven at Christ's second coming. As far as dispensationalists are concerned they believe the Rapture refers to Christ's secret coming when all the believers are suddenly removed from the earth before the great tribulation.

Those who believe this secret coming believe that the event takes place 7 years before Christ returns to earth. These hold to a premillennial, pre-trib view of the rapture. This is also what dispensationalists believe. I am not an expert on this so if there are some dispy's who disagree please bring it up for correction or debate.

I am not a premillennial, pretrib or dispensationalist. I am an Amillennialist.
I believe Jesus returns at the end of the church age, or the time of the great apostasy which happens immediately before the return of Christ. Which marks the end of the millennial age on the earth.

I dont disagree with a rapture, just the time in which it takes place.

Here is where I believe the Rapture takes place. Christ's second coming.

and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 At that time there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left. Matthew 24.



“Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming. 43 But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 44 For this reason you must be ready as well; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

Want me to convince you with one verse that Pre-Tribulation is the way it is going to be? First of all, where did this Secret Coming materiel from? It is not a COMING till HIS FEET hit the ground. It has never been in my Bible, so someone had to drag that word "SECRET" in. You do know that Christ is following a Jewish wedding ritual, don't you. I my Father's Hours are many rooms, is a Line right out of a Jewish Wedding. In a JEWISH wedding the Bridegroom NEVER goes near the old Dwelling place, and HE has to chose someone in HIS wedding Party, to go to CALL the Bride out of her old dwelling place. JESUS CHOSE the ArchAngel to do that chore for HIM, while HE waits in the Clouds. Never has been a secret. In a Jewish wedding we all go as a Group, in the twinkling of an eye. Happens VERY, VERY FAST. Second Coming Happens very Slowly, the World's Armies think they have to Attack Israel, to ultimately go After Christ, to Stop HIM from coming back. You follow me so far.

Here is the ONE VERSE, that should convince you.

Revelation 4:4 (HCSB)
4 Around that throne were 24 thrones, and on the thrones sat 24 elders dressed in white clothes, with gold crowns on their heads.

You do not get to Sit on a THRONE until your work is FINISHED, JUST LIKE JESUS did not get to SIT ON HIS THRONE, until HIS WORK of SALVATION WAS FINISHED. You may believe the Church-age Saints HAVE ARRIVED, in their Glorified bodies after Tribulation. But here we have all the Elders of the Church SITTING, in verse 4:4, So the Work of their Great Commission Has to be done. We Know the human spirit returns to GOD when we die, so that verse cannot be talking about those spirit beings. WHY? What are those Spirit Beings going to SIT ON. IT TAKES A GLORIFIED BODY TO SIT ON YOUR POSTERIOR. And John SAW them sitting there, in that vision. Makes Perfect Sense to me.
 
marilyn

We are not `Abraham`s seed,`

Maybe in your views and religion you are not, but in my faith those who belong to Christ are Abrahams seed and heirs Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
 
Want me to convince you with one verse that Pre-Tribulation is the way it is going to be? First of all, where did this Secret Coming materiel from? It is not a COMING till HIS FEET hit the ground. It has never been in my Bible, so someone had to drag that word "SECRET" in. You do know that Christ is following a Jewish wedding ritual, don't you. I my Father's Hours are many rooms, is a Line right out of a Jewish Wedding. In a JEWISH wedding the Bridegroom NEVER goes near the old Dwelling place, and HE has to chose someone in HIS wedding Party, to go to CALL the Bride out of her old dwelling place. JESUS CHOSE the ArchAngel to do that chore for HIM, while HE waits in the Clouds. Never has been a secret. In a Jewish wedding we all go as a Group, in the twinkling of an eye. Happens VERY, VERY FAST. Second Coming Happens very Slowly, the World's Armies think they have to Attack Israel, to ultimately go After Christ, to Stop HIM from coming back. You follow me so far.

Here is the ONE VERSE, that should convince you.

Revelation 4:4 (HCSB)
4 Around that throne were 24 thrones, and on the thrones sat 24 elders dressed in white clothes, with gold crowns on their heads.

You do not get to Sit on a THRONE until your work is FINISHED, JUST LIKE JESUS did not get to SIT ON HIS THRONE, until HIS WORK of SALVATION WAS FINISHED. You may believe the Church-age Saints HAVE ARRIVED, in their Glorified bodies after Tribulation. But here we have all the Elders of the Church SITTING, in verse 4:4, So the Work of their Great Commission Has to be done. We Know the human spirit returns to GOD when we die, so that verse cannot be talking about those spirit beings. WHY? What are those Spirit Beings going to SIT ON. IT TAKES A GLORIFIED BODY TO SIT ON YOUR POSTERIOR. And John SAW them sitting there, in that vision. Makes Perfect Sense to me.
I’m not convinced
 
“Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!”[vss 15-19]

Again, the “you” here is “this generation” and the disciples. The abomination of desolation is not an endtime event, but the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. This was not an end time event, because if it was, fleeing to the mountains would’ve been fruitless. In Luke 21, Luke records Jesus saying “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.[Luke 21:20-22] When they were to see these armies surrounding Jerusalem, they were to know the time of the fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse was to happen, and they knew to leave or be killed as well.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

We see plainly that the time of trouble in Daniel is followed by a resurrection. We also see the great tribulation of Matthew 24:21 is the worst since the beginning of time and there would never be one worse than that. So the tribulation in Matthew cannot be different than the one in Daniel. Where was the resurrection in 70 AD?


Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We the church, the body of Christ are now the elect! 2 Timothy 2:10, Colossians 3:12, Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Our Gathering will not happen until after the falling away and the man of sin is revealed.
The above passages refer to the same event the one and only coming of the Lord in our future.


Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

At the 7th trump or the last trumpet, sounds like a resurrection to me. There is only one more coming of the Lord in our future. Described in many passages not with exact wording, but we should harmonize them by looking at the similar parts not dividing them into multiple comings because wording is not identical.

Daniel 11:31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.


Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

The same abomination as in Daniel.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

My friend this (Matt. 24:29-31) did not happen in 70 AD Yes the temple was destroyed but that was not the only question Jesus answered that day.

There was no gathering, there was no
resurrection, it was not the end of days. More to come. I'll deal later with "this generation".

God Bless My Friend
 
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Matthew 29-31 isn’t to be taken literally as the second advent is. This was Christ coming in judgment to destroy the temple and throttle Jerusalem. In Matthew 24:15-16 Jesus said, “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. In other words, they could’ve escaped this is the fled to the mountains. This was an localized event, not an end time prophecy.
 
Jeff Durbin, in a sermon titled ”The Great Tribulation & The End of the Age”, speaks of how Jesus tells the religious leaders about the impending judgment upon Jerusalem and the temple then travels East to the Mount of Olives and gives His Olivet Discourse. Where else do we see this? Then the cherubim lifted up their wings, with the wheels beside them, and the glory of the God of Israel was over them. And the glory of the Lord went up from the midst of the city and stood on the mountain that is on the east side of the city.[Ezekiel 11:22-23] This was leading up to the destruction of the temple at that time. The same thing here Christ did somewhere AD 30. The Olivet Discourse is about Jerusalem’s destruction, not an end time prophecy.
 
Here is another passage in the OT that uses apocalyptic language when it speaks of a nation under the judgement of God…

Wail, for the day of the Lord is near![not millennia later, either]
It will come as destruction from the Almighty. Therefore all hands will fall limp,
And every man’s heart will melt. They will be terrified,
Pains and anguish will take hold of them;
They will writhe like a woman in labor,
They will look at one another in astonishment,
Their faces aflame. Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
Cruel, with fury and burning anger,
To make the land a desolation;
And He will exterminate its sinners from it. For the stars of heaven and their constellations
Will not flash forth their light;
The sun will be dark when it rises
And the moon will not shed its light
. Thus I will punish the world for its evil
And the wicked for their iniquity;
I will also put an end to the arrogance of the proud
And abase the haughtiness of the ruthless. I will make mortal man scarcer than pure gold
And mankind than the gold of Ophir. Therefore I will make the heavens tremble,
And the earth will be shaken from its place
At the fury of the Lord of hosts
In the day of His burning anger. And it will be that like a hunted gazelle,
Or like sheep with none to gather them,
They will each turn to his own people,
And each one flee to his own land. Anyone who is found will be thrust through,
And anyone who is captured will fall by the sword. Their little ones also will be dashed to pieces
Before their eyes;
Their houses will be plundered
And their wives ravished.

Behold, I am going to stir up the Medes against them,
Who will not value silver or take pleasure in gold. And their bows will mow down the young men,
They will not even have compassion on the fruit of the womb,
Nor will their eye pity children. And Babylon, the beauty of kingdoms, the glory of the Chaldeans’ pride,
Will be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. It will never be inhabited or lived in from generation to generation;
Nor will the Arab pitch his tent there,
Nor will shepherds make their flocks lie down there. But desert creatures will lie down there,
And their houses will be full of owls;
Ostriches also will live there, and shaggy goats will frolic there. Hyenas will howl in their fortified towers
And jackals in their luxurious palaces.
Her fateful time also will soon come
And her days will not be prolonged.
[Isaiah 13:6-13]

When they heard Jesus using the words He used, they knew these to be judgment language, as they read them throughout OT scripture.
 
marilyn



Maybe in your views and religion you are not, but in my faith those who belong to Christ are Abrahams seed and heirs Gal 3:29

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Yes, we are Abraham's seed, which has a spritual connotation, rather than a physical connotation IMHO as per John 8:37ff.
 
@ReverendRV did you think Gentry taught or was going to teach that the Nephilim in Genesis 6 came from the Sons of God, daughters of men relations?
 
I watched that before but I need to again as it’s been a while. I was thinking of Dr. Kenneth Gentry, my faux pas.
Seems like people get all uptight over that Nephilim thing, which to me is silly. It's pride IMHO.

I think he made a great case about the usage of sons of God in Scripture. Then tying it all to the NT was like *BAM!!!* I highly respect how he handled that.
 
I watched that before but I need to again as it’s been a while. I was thinking of Dr. Kenneth Gentry, my faux pas.
Oh, you remember PennEd? He was the one who taught that the Nephilim were created by these relations, and that one of the women on the ark was pregnant by one of the angels, and that's how Goliath came along.

Plus that is the reason God destroyed nations in the OT, and the elect are non-Nephilim, the non elect are Nephilim.
 
Oh, you remember PennEd? He was the one who taught that the Nephilim were created by these relations, and that one of the women on the ark was pregnant by one of the angels, and that's how Goliath came along.

Plus that is the reason God destroyed nations in the OT, and the elect are non-Nephilim, the non elect are Nephilim.
Yes I remember him and that.
 
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