The Apostles Creed Missing Ingredient?

[Arch Stanton]

No Christian should start with the opinions of other Christians. We should all start with what the God-breathed Bible says.

and since those early Christians are Catholic, it should be easy to follow without the opinions of others

 

[David1701]

and since those early Christians are Catholic, it should be easy to follow without the opinions of others

The "Catholic" organisation did not exist until at least the 4th C. A.D.. The churches (autonomous local congregations, in fellowship with the Lord and each other) have existed since the Day of Pentecost.

 

[Arch Stanton]

The "Catholic" organisation did not exist until at least the 4th C. A.D..

Ignatius wrote his letter in AD 110

The churches (autonomous local congregations, in fellowship with the Lord and each other) have existed since the Day of Pentecost.

and those churches under the umbrella of 'universal' were under the guidance of Peter and the other apostles.... then others had hands laid on them -- Ignatius, Polycarp, etc.

 

[David1701]

Ignatius wrote his letter in AD 110

and those churches under the umbrella of 'universal' were under the guidance of Peter and the other apostles.... then others had hands laid on them -- Ignatius, Polycarp, etc.

There is a great difference between the catholic church and the Catholic Church. The catholic (universal) church is the totality of those who believe in Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church is an organisation full of unbiblical doctrines, offices and practices.

 

[Arch Stanton]

There is a great difference between the catholic church and the Catholic Church. The catholic (universal) church is the totality of those who believe in Jesus Christ. The Catholic Church is an organisation full of unbiblical doctrines, offices and practices.

I have been on protestant boards for over two decades and not one person can tell me when the Catholic Church was established. As a former history teacher for over thirty years, I am still waiting for a legitimate answer. If not the Catholic Church [Polycarp, Ignatius, etc.] then when was its origin? Please don't tell me Constantine.

 

[David1701]

I have been on protestant boards for over two decades and not one person can tell me when the Catholic Church was established. As a former history teacher for over thirty years, I am still waiting for a legitimate answer. If not the Catholic Church [Polycarp, Ignatius, etc.] then when was its origin? Please don't tell me Constantine.

When did the Bishop of Rome achieve ascendancy over the other bishops? I suppose you could say that that was the outward sign of the rot setting in.

 

[Arch Stanton]

When did the Bishop of Rome achieve ascendancy over the other bishops? I suppose you could say that that was the outward sign of the rot setting in.

When Christ said He would give Peter the keys in Mt 16. Still think rot set in?

 

[Mr GLee]

Correct... we started with Christ and His Apostles.... they then laid hands on the next generation. The Church is the pillar of truth; the wisdom of God is made known through her -- per St. Paul.

The Church is the pillar of whose truth today ? (one) Dying mankind.? . . or (two) our eternal invisible head Christ? Door one or door two?

It started with Christ the creator and ended with Christ. Christ. . . the one and only Alfa Omega . By the power of the Holy Spirit working in the disciples of Christ he sent them called apostles out with his messages to preach. Not teach ,God whose name is Jealous will not share that glory with a succession of dying mankind . Remember as our propmised teacher comforter and guide he also brings to our memory the previous things he has taught .a complete service by which we can serve him who have no needs of His own

Christ the Holy Spirt is the one good teaching master . In that way the bible (sola scriptura) informs us that the apostles are as nothing (1 Corihtinans 3 they have no power of thier own to even forgive their own sin much less the sins of the whole world by the power of Chrsit inus. .
Yoked with Christ mankind can can perform the work required believe and do the will of the Father . Christ washes all the feet of his children How beautiful are the feet of those sent out shod with the gospel of the peace of God . . not a gospel of men after what the eyes see the dying temporal.

He that plants the incorruptible born again seed the living word is nothing zero any thing, neither he that water it with the water of the word the doctrine that fall like rain . . . two nothings

Peter our brother in the lord denied Christ wash his feet. Jesus the Son of man prophesied if I do not wash your feet you have no part in eternal life

Its easy to see that as a law of the fathers oral traditons dying mankind violated the law to not add or subtract the intended meaning of even one word it could change all the commandments (Deuteronomy 4:2)

Sort of like in the garden the cause of the fall . When Satan as Lucifer a false god deceived Eve with false prophecy he added "neither shall you touch" they both trusting in what the eyes see the lust of the eye they touched . . . the lust of the flesh convincing them they will never die look at his beauty and live

1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

The lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes,the wor working as one bulding blockof false proide and the pride of life,

You cold call it spiritual plagiarism therefore violating the first commandment. "have no other gods as false interpreters before our one Living Holy Father that works in those born from above" Not a legion of fathers the non venerable Called Patron saints

One God, one Father of all sects as families of the world His one eternal bride . Call no man on earth (dying mankind) Holy Father, Holy See., Our vicar Christ. We do mot worship the feet of sent ones Even granite as Peters feet at the Vatican can wear out as a idol image . .giving idols a face on the many what some call patron saint they come up as a legon of gods (3500 and rising Not a biblical teaching

Christ's labor of love as a work of his faithfulness can never tire or wear our

Apostles according to God's word messenger sent with a message from God And not Apostles highly worship able or venerable one that lords it over the faith of the non venerable

In that way we gain nothing from the dying flesh of mankind that he is pouring out the power of His Holy Spirit on .

1 Corhtitains 3: 6-9 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase .So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

there is not one verse that supports venerating a legion of disembodied workers with a familiar spirits gods .Plenty to opposes dying mankind the legion of fathers

Define the word apostle using the words the apostle were sent with (sola scriptura)

 

[Arch Stanton]

The Church is the pillar of whose truth today ?

Christ's Church reveals God's Truth

 

[David1701]

When Christ said He would give Peter the keys in Mt 16. Still think rot set in?

There is no mention of the office of "Pope"; no mention of Peter being "Bishop of Rome" (in fact, if I recall correctly, the Bible does not say that Peter ever visited Rome); no mention that Rome should be the centre of Christianity; no mention that the Bishop of Rome should have any authority over other church leaders (actually, no mention that any pastor has authority over any other); there is no mention of so-called "papal infallibility", when speaking ex-cathedra; there is no mention of Peter being "Vicar of Christ", or "Holy Father", or any such blasphemous nonsense.

The whole set up of the office of Pope is man-made, anti-biblical tradition. Christians should have nothing to do with it; in fact, they should denounce it and warn others about it.

 

[Arch Stanton]

There is no mention of the office of "Pope";

The office is Chamberlain or Steward... think of Isaiah 22 as an example

(in fact, if I recall correctly, the Bible does not say that Peter ever visited Rome)

Why would it? The Church was being persecuted by the Romans. You will find a little nugget in your favorite book though [Romans] regarding Paul waiting to enter Rome.

The whole set up of the office of Pope is man-made

if Christ is the one considered 'man'.

, anti-biblical tradition

no anti biblical tradition here... the OT and the NT had a hierarchy

 

[David1701]

The office is Chamberlain or Steward... think of Isaiah 22 as an example

There is no NT office of chamberlain or steward.

Why would it? The Church was being persecuted by the Romans. You will find a little nugget in your favorite book though [Romans] regarding Paul waiting to enter Rome.

We know that Paul did go to Rome. We have no such information about Peter.

if Christ is the one considered 'man'.

Christ said nothing about any office of "pope".

no anti biblical tradition here... the OT and the NT had a hierarchy

Neither the OT, nor the NT, had popes, cardinals, archbishops, monsignors or vicars and NT does not even have the office of priest, since Christ is our high priest and all Christians are priests. It's all man-made rubbish.

 

[Arch Stanton]

There is no NT office of chamberlain or steward.

There most certainly is.... Peter was the holder of the keys

Joseph to Pharaoh
Daniel under Nebuchadnezzar
Mordecai over the house of Haman
Eliakim to the house of Judah
Peter - Kingdom of Christ

We know that Paul did go to Rome. We have no such information about Peter.

We do, but you have to look for the nuggets....

1Peter 5:13 The chosen one at Babylon sends you greeting, as does Mark, my son.
[Babylon was the code word used in the early centuries for Rome]

Romans 15:20 Thus I aspire to proclaim the gospel not where Christ has already been named, so that I do not build on another’s foundation,
[Peter was already in Rome]

 

[David1701]

There most certainly is.... Peter was the holder of the keys

Joseph to Pharaoh
Daniel under Nebuchadnezzar
Mordecai over the house of Haman
Eliakim to the house of Judah
Peter - Kingdom of Christ

I said that there is no NT office of chamberlain or steward.

Four of your examples are from the OT; at least two of them were not stewards appointed by or to God's people (Joseph and Daniel); and Peter (the only one from the NT) was never declared to be a steward or chamberlain, nor was any such office declared in the NT.

We do, but you have to look for the nuggets....


1Peter 5:13 The chosen one at Babylon sends you greeting, as does Mark, my son.

[Babylon was the code word used in the early centuries for Rome]

1 Peter 5:13 (Webster) The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Mark my son.

Unless Peter was female, then this verse does not refer to him. Most commentators believe that it refers to the congregation that was there (also, there is no reason to take "Babylon" figuratively, since it could easily have referred to Babylon in Assyria, which was a great centre of the Jewish dispersion).

Romans 15:20 Thus I aspire to proclaim the gospel not where Christ has already been named, so that I do not build on another’s foundation,

[Peter was already in Rome]

This is called "eisegesis", since Paul had already said to the Roman Christians that he was eager to preach the gospel to them (Rom. 1:15); also, it is mere speculation to say that Peter was already in Rome (you cannot just assume what you need to demonstrate - that is called "begging the question").

You're not doing very well...

 

[Arch Stanton]

I said that there is no NT office of chamberlain or steward.

Four of your examples are from the OT; at least two of them were not stewards appointed by or to God's people (Joseph and Daniel); and Peter (the only one from the NT) was never declared to be a steward or chamberlain, nor was any such office declared in the NT.

R.T. France (Anglican/Protestant Evangelical) --

"The terms [binding and loosing] thus refer to a teaching function, and more specifically one of making halakhic pronouncements [i.e. relative to laws not written down in the Jewish Scriptures but based on an oral interpretation of them] which are to be 'binding' on the people of God. In that case Peter's 'power of the keys' declared in [Matthew] 16:19 is not so much that of the doorkeeper... but that of the steward (as in Is. 22:22, generally regarded as the Old Testament background to the metaphor of keys here), whose keys of office enable him to regulate the affairs of the household." (R.T. France, as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 54)

1 Peter 5:13 (Webster) The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Mark my son.

Unless Peter was female, then this verse does not refer to him. Most commentators believe that it refers to the congregation that was there (also, there is no reason to take "Babylon" figuratively, since it could easily have referred to Babylon in Assyria, which was a great centre of the Jewish dispersion).

Irenaeus​

Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, also handed down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter (Against Heresies 3:1:1 [A.D. 189]).

This is called "eisegesis", since Paul had already said to the Roman Christians that he was eager to preach the gospel to them (Rom. 1:15); also, it is mere speculation to say that Peter was already in Rome (you cannot just assume what you need to demonstrate - that is called "begging the question").

Whose foundation would keep Paul in the background? PETER

You're not doing very well...

Indeed.... you need to open your mind to the truth.

 

[Mr GLee]

Ignatius wrote his letter in AD 110

and those churches under the umbrella of 'universal' were under the guidance of Peter and the other apostles.... then others had hands laid on them -- Ignatius, Polycarp, etc.

I would think the missing ingredient is the invisible head the Holy Father Its why he lovingly commands us to call no dying man on earth Holy Father, Holy See, our prince of apostles etc .

Who really cares what Mr, Ignatius offers as private interpretation. we have the whole interpretation of the Holy Spirit who dwells in those born again. . . .working to both (the gospel key) reveal his will and empower us to do it this good pleasure. Not to the pleasure of Peter the serial denier . (Philippians 2:13) Jesu did the will of the father with delight. Some like Jonas where dragged against their will and wanted to die. Knowing God give fullness of grace the complete cost of salvation .not a unknown amount and one must continue to suffer and wonder in Limbo

Does Christ dwell in you?

Did Peter teach the doctrine of purgatory (not enough grace to finish salvation the whole cost .With the exception of some Queen of heaven that some call Mary after out blessed sister in the Lord.

What do you think of the lesson that taught Peter not to blaspheme the Son of man, Jesus. Why did Peter rebuke eternal God the Lord of Glory the invisible head and forbid Jesus from doing the will of His father .

Ignore it like it never happened?

Mathew 16: 22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


That rebuking of the invisible head by our brother in the Lord Peter . . clearly makes the idea the key is the gospel powerful news is exclusively of the invisible head , and not dying Peter our brother in the Lord.

Mathew 16:19 and I will give to thee the keys (gospel) of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.'

The same whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens. 'applies to al the children of God (Mathew 18:18 "

Can't bind something God "Let there be:" and "it was good" as if earthly inspired from Rome or Salt like City ,or another sect the JW's Warwick, New York.. zip code 10p87

In 1 John 2 we are warned of the ant-christs another teaching authority other than al things writen in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura)

Those who do serve a law of dying mankind as in "I heard it through the dying fathers grapevine" the as non venerable pew warmers must call "sacred traditons" they are sacred to themselves comparing themselves to themselves and not compared to all things writen in the law and prophets (sola scriptura)

How would that compare to those under the promised Holy Spirit and the earthly inspired promises of your Pope?

John 14: 25-26 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Who brings to your mind the previous things taught? The legion of fathers as patron saints ?

Something eternal is missing in Catholiscim . any idea?

 

[David1701]

R.T. France (Anglican/Protestant Evangelical) --

"The terms [binding and loosing] thus refer to a teaching function, and more specifically one of making halakhic pronouncements [i.e. relative to laws not written down in the Jewish Scriptures but based on an oral interpretation of them] which are to be 'binding' on the people of God. In that case Peter's 'power of the keys' declared in [Matthew] 16:19 is not so much that of the doorkeeper... but that of the steward (as in Is. 22:22, generally regarded as the Old Testament background to the metaphor of keys here), whose keys of office enable him to regulate the affairs of the household." (R.T. France, as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 54)

Irenaeus​

Matthew also issued among the Hebrews a written Gospel in their own language, while Peter and Paul were evangelizing in Rome and laying the foundation of the Church. After their departure, Mark, the disciple and interpreter of Peter, also handed down to us in writing what had been preached by Peter (Against Heresies 3:1:1 [A.D. 189]).

Whose foundation would keep Paul in the background? PETER

Indeed.... you need to open your mind to the truth.

I notice that you have reverted to the opinions of men, since the Bible does not support your RC doctrine.

It is you who need to repent and believe the truth, rather than the lies and heresies of Roman Catholicism.

 

[Arch Stanton]

I notice that you have reverted to the opinions of men

protestant 'scholars?' Is his opinion any different than yours?

since the Bible does not support your RC doctrine.

Paul did not want to go where the foundation was already there.... who would keep Paul on the outskirts?

It is you who need to repent and believe the truth,

I go to confession

rather than the lies and heresies of Roman Catholicism.

only due to your lack of knowledge about Christ and His Church

 

[David1701]

protestant 'scholars?' Is his opinion any different than yours?

Paul did not want to go where the foundation was already there.... who would keep Paul on the outskirts?

I go to confession

only due to your lack of knowledge about Christ and His Church

Goodbye.

 

[Mr GLee]

protestant 'scholars?' Is his opinion any different than yours?

Is there a difference in opinion of the protestants that serve gospel of Christ all things written in the law and prophets (sola scriptura) ? and those who serve a law of men oral traditons murdering them that refuse to venerate the dying flesh of the High priest .? Satan the spirit of lies would say no difference He as the man of sin has no literal body . The father of false prophets, false apostles .

Acts 22:1-5King James Version Men, brethren, and fathers, hear ye my defense which I make now unto you. (And when they heard that he spake in the Hebrew tongue to them, they kept the more silence: and he saith,) I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day. And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women. As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.

Saul as Paul found out the difference. Between earthly inspired of the father of lies and our invisible head our Holy Father .turned inspiration right side up

Acts 24:13-14 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: (sola scriptura the armor of God