The history of the church.

[Arch Stanton]

Ha, really don? Even those ECFs you claim, dont even agree with you on this.

Cyril of Jerusalem​

In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9 ;3 2-3 4] (Catechetical Lectures 17;27 [A.D. 350]).

 

[Arch Stanton]

Ha, really don? Even those ECFs you claim, dont even agree with you on this.

Ambrose of Milan​

[Christ] made answer: "You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church . . ." Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]? (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).

Augustine​

Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear "I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).

Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter? (Commentary on John 56:1 [A.D. 416]).

 

[donadams]

Ha, really don? Even those ECFs you claim, dont even agree with you on this.

The keys of the kingdom are the basis of jurisdictional authority

Which ECF?

 

[donadams]

So, where does your pope come into this?

Sorry I thought you asked why stay in the church

Please clarify

 

[donadams]

Ha, really don? Even those ECFs you claim, dont even agree with you on this.

What is ment by the term vicar?

 

[Carbon]

And Christ is king wjo before ascending appointed peter to be the prime minister and and the apostles the cabinet officers

No king administers His own kingdom especially since Christ ascended

There is no biblical record of that.

 

[Carbon]

Cyprian of Carthage. Epistle XXVI

Just as the one Church of Christ is divided into many members throughout the world, so the one episcopate is expanded into a multiplicity of many bishops united in concord.

And again from the same saint:

Receive ye the Holy Spirit: if you forgive the sins of anyone, they will be forgiven him; if you retain the sins of anyone, they will be retained, yet that He might display unity, He established by His authority the origin of the same unity as beginning from one. Surely the rest of the Apostles also were that which Peter was, endowed with an equal partnership of office and of power...

 

[Carbon]

From St. Cyril of Alexandria:

When the blessed Peter had been counted worthy of a grace thus glorious and wonderful, being in the neighborhood of Caesarea Philippi, he made a correct and faultless confession of faith in Him, saying, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And what was the reward of which he was thought worthy? It was to hear Christ say, Blessed art thou, Simeon, son of Jonah; for flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but My Father in heaven. And he further received surpassing honors; for he was entrusted by Him with the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and the confession of his faith was made the firm foundation for the Church. For thou, He says, art a stone; and upon this stone I will build My Church; and the gates of hell shall not overpower it. (Saint Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on the Gospel of Saint Luke, Homily 53, trans. R. Payne Smith (Studion Publishers, Inc., 1983), p. 232.

And again,

But why do we say that they are foundations of the earth? For Christ is the foundation and unshakable base of all things Christ who restrains and holds together all things, that they may be very firm. Upon him also we all are built, a spiritual household, put together by the Holy Spirit into a holy temple in which he himself dwells; for by our faith he lives in our hearts. But the next foundations, those nearer to us, can be understood to be the apostles and evangelists, those eyewitnesses and ministers of the word who have arisen for the strengthening of the faith. For when we recognize that their own traditions must be followed, we serve a faith which is true and does not deviate from Christ. For when he wisely and blamelessly confessed his faith to Jesus saying, You are Christ, Son of the living God, Jesus said to divine Peter: You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church. Now by the word rock, Jesus indicated, I think, the immoveable faith of the disciple. Likewise, the psalmist says: Its foundations are the holy mountains. Very truly should the holy apostles and evangelists be compared to holy mountains for their understanding was laid down like a foundation for posterity, so that those who had been caught in their nets would not fall into a false faith. (Commentary on Isaiah, IV, 2, M.P.G., Vol. 70, Col. 940).

 

[Carbon]

Origen says in his Commentary on Matthew:

And if we too have said like Peter, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' not as if flesh and blood had revealed it unto us, but by the light from the Father in heaven having shone in our heart, we become a Peter, and to us there might be said by the Word, 'Thou art Peter, 'etc. For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, and upon every such rock is built every word of the Church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.

But if you suppose that upon the one Peter only the whole church is built by God, what would you say about John the son of thunder or each one of the Apostles? Shall we otherwise dare to say, that against Peter in particular the gates of Hades shall not prevail, but that they shall prevail against the other Apostles and the perfect? Does not the saying previously made, 'The gates of Hades shall not prevail against it,' hold in regard to all and in the case of each of them? And also the saying, 'Upon this rock I will build My Church?' Are the keys of the kingdom of heaven given by the Lord to Peter only, and will no other of the blessed receive them? But if this promise, 'I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven,' be common to others, how shall not all things previously spoken of, and the things which are subjoined as having been addressed to Peter, be common to them?

'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' If any one says this to Him...he will obtain the things that were spoken according to the letter of the Gospel to that Peter, but, as the spirit of the Gospel teaches to every one who becomes such as that Peter was. For all bear the surname 'rock' who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual drought. But these bear the surname of rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters And to all such the saying of the Savior might be spoken, 'Thou art Peter' etc., down to the words, 'prevail against it. 'But what is the it? Is it the rock upon which Christ builds the Church, or is it the Church? For the phrase is ambiguous. Or is it as if the rock and the Church were one and the same? This I think to be true; for neither against the rock on which Christ builds His Church, nor against the Church will the gates of Hades prevail. Now, if the gates of Hades prevail against any one, such an one cannot be a rock upon which the Christ builds the Church, nor the Church built by Jesus upon the rock.


Here are two citations from the Council of Carthage under St. Cyprian:

For no one [of us] has set himself up [to be] bishop of bishops or attempted with tyrannical dread to force his colleagues to obedience to him, since every bishop has, for the license of liberty and power, his own will, and as he cannot be judged by another, so neither can he judge another. But we await the judgment of our universal Lord, our Lord Jesus Christ, who one and alone hath the power, both of advancing us in the governance of his Church, and of judging of our actions [in that position].

And again,

If any Clergyman have a matter against another clergyman, he shall not forsake his bishop and run to secular courts; but let him first lay open the matter before his own Bishop, or let the matter be submitted to any person whom each of the parties may, with the Bishop's consent, select. And if any one shall contravene these decrees, let him be subjected to canonical penalties. And if a clergyman have a complaint against his own or any other bishop, let it be decided by the synod of the province. And if a bishop or clergyman should have a difference with the metropolitan of the province, let him have recourse to the Exarch of the Diocese, or to the throne of the Imperial City of Constantinople, and there let it be tried.

 

[Carbon]

St. Gregory of Nyssa says this:

We chiefly commemorate today those who have shone with a great and dazzling splendor of piety. I mean Peter, James and John, who arc the Princes of the Apostolic Order... The apostles of the Lord were stars that brightened all under heaven. Their princes and chiefs Peter, James and John whose martyrdom we celebrate, suffered in many ways... Peter received the favor of a glory suitable to his dignity... James was beheaded, aspiring to the possession of Christ, who is truly his head, for the head of man is the Christ, Who at the same time is the only Head of the Church... The apostles are the foundations of the Church, the columns and pillars of truth... from them flow abundant torrents of divine doctrine. (Panegyric to St. Stephen)

 

[Carbon]

St. Basil says,

The Church, the House of the Lord, is built upon the foundations of the faith of the apostles and prophets. (St. Basil of Casarea, Second Chapter of Isaiah)

 

[Carbon]

In St. Augustine’s Retractions, he writes,

In one place I said... that the Church had been built on Peter as the Rock... but in fact it was not said to Peter, Thou art the Rock, but rather Thou art Peter. The Rock was Jesus Christ, Peter having confessed Him as all the Church confesses Him, He was then called Peter, the Rock ...Between these two sentiments let the reader choose the most probable.(13th Sermon; Contra Julianum 1:13)

Again he says similarly in the same work,

Peter had not a primacy over the apostles, but among the apostles, and Christ said to them I will build upon Myself, I will not be built upon thee.

 

[Carbon]

St. Ambrose writes:

As soon as Peter heard these words, 'Whom say ye that I am?' remembering his place, he exercised this primacy, a primacy of confession, not of honor; a primacy of faith, not of rank.

 

[Carbon]

Cyril of Jerusalem​

In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9 ;3 2-3 4] (Catechetical Lectures 17;27 [A.D. 350]).

Arch, it's obvious there were some who supported a pope. But there are many who did not. When these ECFs mention a bishop. that does not mean they support a pope. There were times when they tried to correct the pope's position. Ill post more shortly.

 

[donadams]

There is no biblical record of that.

Thats what is implied by the “keys”
Jurisdictional authority mattc16:18-19

What about

Daniel 7:18
But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever.

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;

 

[Alive]

Origen says in his Commentary on Matthew:

And if we too have said like Peter, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' not as if flesh and blood had revealed it unto us, but by the light from the Father in heaven having shone in our heart, we become a Peter, and to us there might be said by the Word, 'Thou art Peter, 'etc. For a rock is every disciple of Christ of whom those drank who drank of the spiritual rock which followed them, and upon every such rock is built every word of the Church, and the polity in accordance with it; for in each of the perfect, who have the combination of words and deeds and thoughts which fill up the blessedness, is the church built by God.

But if you suppose that upon the one Peter only the whole church is built by God, what would you say about John the son of thunder or each one of the Apostles? Shall we otherwise dare to say, that against Peter in particular the gates of Hades shall not prevail, but that they shall prevail against the other Apostles and the perfect? Does not the saying previously made, 'The gates of Hades shall not prevail against it,' hold in regard to all and in the case of each of them? And also the saying, 'Upon this rock I will build My Church?' Are the keys of the kingdom of heaven given by the Lord to Peter only, and will no other of the blessed receive them? But if this promise, 'I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven,' be common to others, how shall not all things previously spoken of, and the things which are subjoined as having been addressed to Peter, be common to them?

'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' If any one says this to Him...he will obtain the things that were spoken according to the letter of the Gospel to that Peter, but, as the spirit of the Gospel teaches to every one who becomes such as that Peter was. For all bear the surname 'rock' who are the imitators of Christ, that is, of the spiritual rock which followed those who are being saved, that they may drink from it the spiritual drought. But these bear the surname of rock just as Christ does. But also as members of Christ deriving their surname from Him they are called Christians, and from the rock, Peters And to all such the saying of the Savior might be spoken, 'Thou art Peter' etc., down to the words, 'prevail against it. 'But what is the it? Is it the rock upon which Christ builds the Church, or is it the Church? For the phrase is ambiguous. Or is it as if the rock and the Church were one and the same? This I think to be true; for neither against the rock on which Christ builds His Church, nor against the Church will the gates of Hades prevail. Now, if the gates of Hades prevail against any one, such an one cannot be a rock upon which the Christ builds the Church, nor the Church built by Jesus upon the rock.


Here are two citations from the Council of Carthage under St. Cyprian:

For no one [of us] has set himself up [to be] bishop of bishops or attempted with tyrannical dread to force his colleagues to obedience to him, since every bishop has, for the license of liberty and power, his own will, and as he cannot be judged by another, so neither can he judge another. But we await the judgment of our universal Lord, our Lord Jesus Christ, who one and alone hath the power, both of advancing us in the governance of his Church, and of judging of our actions [in that position].

And again,

If any Clergyman have a matter against another clergyman, he shall not forsake his bishop and run to secular courts; but let him first lay open the matter before his own Bishop, or let the matter be submitted to any person whom each of the parties may, with the Bishop's consent, select. And if any one shall contravene these decrees, let him be subjected to canonical penalties. And if a clergyman have a complaint against his own or any other bishop, let it be decided by the synod of the province. And if a bishop or clergyman should have a difference with the metropolitan of the province, let him have recourse to the Exarch of the Diocese, or to the throne of the Imperial City of Constantinople, and there let it be tried.

I was reading some Origen earlier. I will try to put together some stuff tomorrow.

 

[Carbon]

circa 251​

In response to Pope Stephen's appeal to Matthew 16 to justify his authority as "the rock" on which the church is built, Cyprian of Carthage argues:

"Certainly the other Apostles also were what Peter was, endued with an equal fellowship both of honour and power; but a commencement is made from unity, that the Church may be set before us as one; which one Church, in the Song of Songs, doth the Holy Spirit design and name in the Person of our Lord."

 

[Carbon]

circa 381​

Refuting Arianism, Ambrose argues that Matthew 16 established faith in the divinity of Christ, and not Peter's authority, as the foundation on which the church is built:

"That is the primacy of his confession, not of honour; the primacy of belief, not of rank. This, then, is Peter who has replied for the rest of the Apostles; rather before the rest of men. And so he is called the foundation, because he knows how to preserve not only his own but the common foundation….Faith, then, is the foundation of the Church, for it was not said of Peter's flesh, but of his faith, that 'the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.'"

 

[Carbon]

circa 417​

The African General Synod at Carthage forbids appeals to Rome. In 417, Pope Zosimus reverses Pope Innocent I's condemnation of Pelagius, declaring him to be orthodox and chastising the African bishops for condemning his teachings. In response to this, the African bishops hold the African General Synod at Carthage and reject the pope's declaration, adding in canon 17:

"If priests, deacons and inferior clerics complain of a sentence of their own bishop, they shall, with the consent of their bishop, have recourse to the neighboring bishops who shall settle the dispute. If they desire to make a further appeal, it must only be to their primates or to the African Councils. But whoever appeals to a court on the other side of the sea [Rome] may not again be received into communion by anyone in Africa."

@Arch Stanton @donadams
You both should see it by now... ? There is just too much stacked against you in history.

 

[Carbon]

451​

The Council of Chalcedon rejects Leo's claims of primacy and instead bases Rome's rank on the fact that it is the capital city of the empire:

"Following in all things the decisions of the holy Fathers…we also do enact and decree the same things concerning the privileges of the most holy Church of Constantinople, which is New Rome. For the Fathers rightly granted privileges to the throne of old Rome, because it was the royal city. And the One Hundred and Fifty most religious Bishops, actuated by the same consideration, gave equal privileges to the most holy throne of New Rome, justly judging that the city which is honoured with the Sovereignty and the Senate, and enjoys equal privileges with the old imperial Rome, should in ecclesiastical matters also be magnified as she is, and rank next after her."