THE ANGELS THAT SINNED

[Wordsmith]

Genesis 6:7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

What are the generations of Noah and what does it mean that they were perfect?

10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

These are the generations of Noah, his offspring, his DNA, flesh of his flesh.

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

God destroyed all corrupted flesh from the earth BUT Noah found grace because his flesh and blood, him and his off spring had not been corrupted. This was the line through which Jesus would eventually be born and it could not be from corrupted flesh.

Noah was "a just man" Noah "walked with God" but he was no spiritually perfect man, other than Christ there have been none of those. Noah was only "perfect in his generations" his blood line not his spiritual man. I think there is enough written about Noah to easily prove that.

 

[Wordsmith]

Did you inspect their bodies? Make sure they had bodies at all?

Answer my question with a question???? Hmmm

Actually I do not need to inspect, scripture says they can take on human form so as that we can not tell the difference,.

You said they ate food because they were hungry. That would require some kind of body.

 

[CrowCross]

First, the angels that sinned were cast down to hell delivered in chains of darkness reserved unto judgment.

Yes, the fallen Watcher angels were.

I place this casting down between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 BEFORE man was created.

Well we know this isn't correct. Wanna know why?

All of creation was considered by God as "VERY GOOD"...If the angels fell prior to man being created then the creation would not have been called VERY GOOD by God.....or do you have a way around that?

You place them in Genesis 6 in making them copulate with human women which is impossible resulting in God chaining them up.

No, the bible who says the sons of God copulated with the women. Job sheds some light when he twlls us the sons of God are angelic beings.

Do you think there is only one kind of angel?

I also believe in the Sovereignty of God over His creation. It would be stupid of God to create what He did and yet cannot control the outcome. But ALL angels, and in TIME, man are subservient to God and OBEY God for He is Sovereign over His creation.
Angels are spirit beings, no body, don't have creative attributes like Creator God to create bodies, are immaterial and cannot be seen, have no genitals as all angels are male and angels don't engage in HOLY matrimony.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. Heb 1:7.

You'd do better to place their being chained as a result of their inward rebellion against God between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

IF the angels that sinned are all locked up BEFORE God created man,

We know the locked up part prior to man being created isn't true.

and there are Scriptures of angels having bodies THAT APPEAR as men, like the angels that destroyed Sodom these are elect angels that did not sin and serve God, seraphims in heaven and cherubs on earth, for the purpose of God. And since these are the only servants of God still around and not doing time in the hokie God would create some sort of material substance we call bodies for their mission on earth.
Then there is Christophanies, the Word having a body that the Bible describes as the Angel of the Lord (but all angels are angels of the Lord if the angels that sinned are locked up which Peter and Jude say they are.

You continue to speculate.

The only evil and sin in the world comes from man.

Start a new thread and ask that question....see how well you do.

 

[CrowCross]

Of course, God created Adam who was created sinful as requiring salvation.

Adam was created VERY GOOD....A sinful creation isn't ...VERY GOOD. But then again you already knew that.

 

[CrowCross]

Answer my question with a question???? Hmmm

Actually I do not need to inspect, scripture says they can take on human form so as that we can not tell the difference,.

You said they ate food because they were hungry. That would require some kind of body.

It appears that Jer1-5 is getting their "angel" theology rocked.

 

[Wordsmith]

From Wikipedia:

No I am not trying to pass this off as scripture. Only trying to show a historical context to the different beliefs on this topic. It is clear the earliest believers believed the angels version. That is just fact.

The first mention of "sons of God" in the Hebrew Bible occurs at Genesis 6:1–4. In terms of literary-historicalorigin, this phrase is typically associated with the Jahwist tradition.[3]

That the "sons of God" were separate enough from the "daughters of men" that they warranted such a distinction, has spawned millennia's worth of debate regarding the meaning of the term. Historically, in Jewish thought, this passage has had many interpretations. Here are three:

1. Offspring of Seth: The first references to the offspring of Seth rebelling from God and mingling with the daughters of Cain are found in Christian and rabbinic literature from the second century CE onwards e.g. Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai, Origen, Augustine of Hippo, Julius Africanus, and the Letters attributed to St. Clement. It is also the view expressed in the modern canonical Amharic Ethiopian Orthodox Bible. In Judaism "Sons of God" usually refers to the righteous, i.e. the children of Seth.
2. Angels: All of the earliest sources interpret the "sons of God" as angels. From the third century BCE onwards, references are found in the Enochic literature, the Dead Sea Scrolls (the Genesis Apocryphon, the Damascus Document, 4Q180), Jubilees, the Testament of Reuben, 2 Baruch, Josephus, and the book of Jude (compare with 2 Peter 2). This is also the meaning of the only two identical occurrences of bene ha elohim in the Hebrew Bible (Job 1:6 and 2:1), and of the most closely related expressions (refer to the list above). In the Septuagint, the interpretive reading "angels" is found in Codex Alexandrinus, one of four main witnesses to the Greek text.
3. Deified kings/Tyrant judges: There is also a large consensus within the scholarly community, that the "sons of God" were simply the deified kings of the various Canaanite city states. These would be the same Canaanite city states that the later proto-Israelites would eventually flee, and who would eventually resettle in the Judean highlands.

The sons of Seth theory is false doctrine man made doctrine with no scriptural backing. Only came about when men chose not to believe the truth of scripture!

 

[jeremiah1five]

So if I understand you correctly you believe the angels rebelled "between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2", where then cast down and locked in chains?

Daniel 10:11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Please tell us who or what entity was sent by God to answer Daniels prayer? I say it was an angel sent from God.

The post is about the angels that sinned. These angels that sinned God cast them down to hell delivered them in chains of darkness to await their judgment for their sin of rebellion which could only have taken place between the time of God creating heaven and earth and the time when God destroyed the planet in fierce anger BEFORE man was created.
By necessity there would also be angels that DIDN'T sin. These are the ones obedient to God and ministers to whom God sends them, and in every case, they are sent to assist God's people. There is no indication what or how the prince of Persia 'withstood' Michael the chief of the angels that did not sin. So, it would be not only foolish to speculate a hard doctrine of belief to say what it was and to pass it off as truth when the truth really cannot be established beyond speculation. But I'm going to look closely at this and maybe the Lord will grant me understanding.

Now tell us who or what entity withstood the angel from God for 21 days and required the help of the angel Michael to prevail?
That would be and angel of the fallen variety but herin lies a problem witnyour doctrine . You think they are ALL locked up in chains.
Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

These powers are OF THIS WORLD and OF THIS WORLD man is ruler.

My friend we do not wrestle against chained up angels you are WRONG, ALL fallen angels are not locked up there was a sin after the rebellion and you cannot explain it with your false doctrine on angels. Don't even try to tell me the rulers in Ephesian 6:12 are human evil rulers because the text clearly says they are not flesh and blood (humans).

So, in everything evil the "devil made me do it?"
Then there is no basis for God to judge man if the devil is behind every evil and man is possessed and cannot control the possession.
That doesn't make any sense.
The angels that sinned are cast down to hell delivered in chains of darkness awaiting judgment.
The thing is I place their being chained before man was created in Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 and you want their being chained up as a result of spirit beings creating bodies to engage women in HOLY matrimony and have children of them that are GIANTS and the reason why God destroyed the world with flood water.
Nonsense.

 

[jeremiah1five]

There's no creation involved...it's what they are and what they do.

God is Sovereign.
EVERYONE God created obeys Him. Angels immediately. Humans take more time because they have to deal with the world and their flesh.
But in the end every knee shall bow.
The angels that sinned were cast down to hell delivered in chains of darkness awaiting judgment.

 

[ReverendRV]

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment. 2 Peter 2:4.

The number of angels that sinned are one-third.

They are ALL "cast to hell, and delivered in chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment."

ALL the angels that sinned.

This means that any and all evil in the world is the result of the sinful nature in mankind.
And it is all-encompassing:

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only.
Gen. 6:5.

This explains a great deal, such as the sons of God who married the daughters of men were human, those from the Covenant line of Seth and the ungodly line of men and women who disobeyed the LORD.

Jesus seeing Satan fall as lightning was at the time God cast them to hell reserved in chains of darkness awaiting the judgment.

There is no Satan except as the word is used: adjective and noun - "adversary."

I agree that the sons of God with the daughters of Man were Human, but satan and demons are mentioned in the New Testament...

 

[Wordsmith]

So, in everything evil the "devil made me do it?"
Then there is no basis for God to judge man if the devil is behind every evil and man is possessed and cannot control the possession.
That doesn't make any sense.
The angels that sinned are cast down to hell delivered in chains of darkness awaiting judgment.
The thing is I place their being chained before man was created in Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 and you want their being chained up as a result of spirit beings creating bodies to engage women in HOLY matrimony and have children of them that are GIANTS and the reason why God destroyed the world with flood water.
Nonsense.

Well you really didn't answer the question that must be because you have no answer that is compatible with your false view on this.

Who or what are the entities we wrestle against that are not flesh and blood? If you have to answer with another. question don't bother.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

I realize this creates a problem for your doctrine but that is your problem not mine. If you have no answer just say so.

This has nothing to do with what I want, it is about what scripture teaches and ALL fallen angels are absolutely not chained. You have have been shown that over and over and yet you keep saying the same thing that has been refuted over and over with no answer to the questions posed to you. This seems to be about what you want it to say it is about not what I want it to say.

You can place it anywhere you wish but Jude places after Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. The sequence of events does not fit with your narrative.

You say nonsense but you have no answers for the origin of Giants and yes they were real giants. You have no answers for where demons come from and hide behind the false idea they are attitudes but the NT and Jesus himself disagrees with you. You have no answers as to why God ordered entire giant clans destroyed, men women and children. You make all of your declarations with no answers to questions posed to you.

Why is there a gift of discerning spirits if there are no spirits to discern? You have immersed yourself in a delusion of man made doctrine . Just claiming common sense will not allow this to be is the weakest of arguments in a Biblical discussion.

 

[Wordsmith]

God is Sovereign.
EVERYONE God created obeys Him. Angels immediately. Humans take more time because they have to deal with the world and their flesh.
But in the end every knee shall bow.
The angels that sinned were cast down to hell delivered in chains of darkness awaiting judgment.

Well now the angels that sinned didn't obey Him immediately. Keep digging this hole.

 

[Wordsmith]

I agree that the sons of God with the daughters of Man were Human, but satan and demons are mentioned in the New Testament...

No sons of God in the OT testament are humans so what do you base this on?

 

[ReverendRV]

No sons of God in the OT testament are humans so what do you base this on?

I agree with you, the sons of God in the Old Testament were human. I base this upon Hebrews which says God never called an angel a Son of God...

I don't say the sons of God in the OT are not demons because there are no such things as satan and demons. There are such things as satan and demons, because both are represented in the New Testament...

 

[Wordsmith]

I agree with you, the sons of God in the Old Testament were human. I base this upon Hebrews which says God never called an angel a Son of God...

I do not say the sons of God in the OT aren't demons because there are no such things as satan and demons. There are such things as satan and demons, because both are represented in the New Testament...

Well first of all you must have misread my post because we do not agree.

Hebrews 11 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

You miss quote and use this passage out of context. The full quote is:

"Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

This is referring to Jesus. We are also called sons of God but we were not begotten in the same way Jesus was.

To use this passage the way you do for angels it could also be used to say we are not called sons of God. Context matters.

Th OT absolutely refers to created beings as "Sons of God" but it not in the same context as Hebrews. Hebrews is not a proof text for your claim.

God did not speak to angels and say they were begotten like Jesus this is true, but in scripture the phrase "sons of God" is used in different ways.

6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

This shows clearly the context is Jesus.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.

Luke 3:38
Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Adam was called the son of God but he was a created being by the hand of God just as the angels were. Adam was not begotten in the same context as Jesus in Hebrews.

Hebrews does not say what you claim!

 

[3 Resurrections]

Angels are spirit.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. Heb 1:7.

God made spirits for His angels, and the manner in which they operate is like flames of fire and wind. This does not mean that they are incorporeal and immaterial beings. Their species is made of a different substance than humankind, which was also given a spirit.

Those "celestial bodies" which Paul described for angels in contrast to humanity's "terrestrial bodies" used the Greek term "somata", which is related to something having a life force. That means these "celestial bodies" were not being equated with the sun, moon, and stars which don't have a "somata" form in 1 Cor. 15:40-41.

I agree with you, the sons of God in the Old Testament were human. I base this upon Hebrews which says God never called an angel a Son of God...

That Hebrews 1:5 verse does not say the angels were never called "sons of God". It says that God never announced to them "Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee." This was the first-begotten Son of God being brought before the Ancient of Days on His resurrection-day ascension being given a kingdom, and dominion, and glory. No angel as a son of God was ever elevated to that unique status except Christ, who was God incarnate.

 

[CrowCross]

So, in everything evil the "devil made me do it?"

No body ever said it was.

 

[Rella]

The question is How can spirit beings' mate with material beings?
Impossible. They are two different creations by God.

I suppose, in eternity we can all ask God what he was thinking.

For now we only have what was recorded within the four corners of the Holy Bible.... (every translation)

And what was recorded back in Genesis is allegedly written by Moses, and has always been understood that Moses writings were inspired by God.

We are told.... OF THE NEPHLIM.... THANK YOU MOSES.... (or whoever) in Genesis. (There is an especially interesting study is about the Nephlim who came about after the flood... but that is a story for another day)
And it has been basically understood these Nephlim were the children of the "Sons of God"

And these "Sons of God" it has been understood to be from days of old, and likely the most widely held, interpretation is that the "sons of God" are fallen angels (demons).

This interpretation is most favored in ancient Judaism and the early church (see 1 Pet. 3:19-20; 2 Pet. 2:4; and especially Jude 6 ).

We simply do not know when an angel, or spirit being comes on earth what they can or cannot do... or how they appear.

Remember we are told in Heb 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. So they, who are also spirit beings can have the appearance of common man, and if they are "to be entertained" must also be able to be as common man.

We are told that Matthew 22:30 declares, “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.” However, the text does not say “angels are not able to marry.” Rather, it indicates only that angels do not marry. Second, Matthew 22:30 is referring to the “angels in heaven.” It is not referring to fallen angels, who do not care about God’s created order and actively seek ways to disrupt God’s plan. The fact that God’s holy angels do not marry or engage in sexual relations does not mean the same is true of Satan and his demons.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I agree that the sons of God with the daughters of Man were Human, but satan and demons are mentioned in the New Testament...

That is the only reasonable conclusion.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Well you really didn't answer the question that must be because you have no answer that is compatible with your false view on this.
Who or what are the entities we wrestle against that are not flesh and blood? If you have to answer with another. question don't bother.

Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

I realize this creates a problem for your doctrine but that is your problem not mine. If you have no answer just say so.

I accept that the angels that sinned are locked up.
I also accept that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
We are created as flesh and blood. How is this resolved? Can you answer that we are flesh and blood and saved but at the same time cannot inherit the kingdom of God?
You passage in Ephesians says that these principalities, powers, rulers of the darkness are OF THIS WORLD. Angels are not of this world. The angels that sinned are locked up. Are you going to change Paul's meaning to say these are angels which are not of this world to suit your belief?

This has nothing to do with what I want, it is about what scripture teaches and ALL fallen angels are absolutely not chained. You have have been shown that over and over and yet you keep saying the same thing that has been refuted over and over with no answer to the questions posed to you. This seems to be about what you want it to say it is about not what I want it to say.

Then you contradict God Himself. He says the angels that sinned - and that means ALL OF THEM - are chained up. So, seeing you ignore God's revealed truth to suit your belief I can't take you seriously as a seeker of God's truth - which is what EVERY child born of God is and does.

You can place it anywhere you wish but Jude places after Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. The sequence of events does not fit with your narrative.

Of course, it does. Finding a place for the angels that sinned being locked up and the reason of their being locked up is more reasonable than ignoring Scripture to suit your own beliefs. The principalities and powers are OF THIS WORLD and men are OF THIS WORLD. Angels are not. This is man's world, not angel's world.

You say nonsense but you have no answers for the origin of Giants and yes they were real giants. You have no answers for where demons come from and hide behind the false idea they are attitudes but the NT and Jesus himself disagrees with you. You have no answers as to why God ordered entire giant clans destroyed, men women and children. You make all of your declarations with no answers to questions posed to you.

Let's see what these 'giants' were:

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; Gen. 6:3

‏נְפִיל, נְפִל Strong’s Hebrew #5303
or nephil, nef-eel’; from <H#5307> (naphal); properly, a feller, i.e. a bully or tyrant.

The word "feller" is translated in the KJV as "giant" in Genesis 6. It means "bully" or "tyrant."
And since these 'sons of God' were from the family line of Seth who took wives of non-covenant women their children grew up without the Law of God and without restriction and became bullies and tyrants in their society. That's a lesson to learn which is why God commanded Israel to not mingle with the Gentiles (non-covenant) and learn their ways, and to the Church the command to not be unequally yoked with unbelievers because the children will not learn God.

So, no, there's no mention of demons or angels here. You're making it all up. You're dishonest with the Scriptures. You translate "giants" as angels when the Hebrew word for angels is "malak." Your beliefs are all made up in the vanity of your mind.

Why is there a gift of discerning spirits if there are no spirits to discern? You have immersed yourself in a delusion of man made doctrine . Just claiming common sense will not allow this to be is the weakest of arguments in a Biblical discussion.

The gift of discerning of spirits (attitudes, thoughts of the mind) discerns and define the source of spiritual phenomenon. It discerns the spirit of good angels, the spirit of man, and the Spirit of God. And it is very important in the individual believers who has this gift and the Church as a whole.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Well now the angels that sinned didn't obey Him immediately. Keep digging this hole.

Nor did they act out their rebellion. It was squashed the moment they thought of it.