THE ANGELS THAT SINNED

[jeremiah1five]

LOL, I'm sorry, but that tickled me. I do have "Conservative" listed under my avatar for a reason. I've told RB before that I grew up from infancy on the tip of the prong of the buckle of the Bible belt - on the same street as Oliver B Green's "Gospel Hour" ministry here in Greenville SC. Conservatism grows on the bushes around here - at least, it was the prevailing mindset until the recent growth spurt has skewed the numbers.

Well, you have a very liberal take on Scripture. The kind of liberalism that came from Europe in the 1800s and eventually took over the leadership positions of our universities in this country in the north.
That's one reason why the Dallas Theological Seminary was founded in the south to counter the liberal, humanistic teachings of the Bible that come out of these schools. These professors birthed people like Darwin and other unbelievers.
But their influence is still felt in churches today.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Then you want to associate "giants" with anakim and then say these were the remnants of the unreasonable human-angel spawn from Genesis 6 and that Goliath the one David slew was a human-angels offspring leftover?
Total fantasy.

Fantasy, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

Spirit beings cannot mate with material beings.

True, but "celestial bodies" of the angels renders them more than spirit beings. They are material of another species than our own.

No, YOU want it to refer to that kind of flesh, but God makes no distinction as you do which means you're adding to the Bible and not honest with Scripture.

How am I "adding to scripture" or being "dishonest" when I am quoting Paul directly from 1 Cor. 15:40 when he makes a distinction between the "celestial bodies" as opposed to "bodies terrestrial"?

 

[3 Resurrections]

That's one reason why the Dallas Theological Seminary was founded in the south to counter the liberal, humanistic teachings of the Bible that come out of these schools. These professors birthed people like Darwin and other unbelievers.
But their influence is still felt in churches today.

The SB church with Reformed leaders that I was a member of for 16 years up until 7 years ago would also laugh at the charge of being influenced by liberalism. I have been drinking directly from the well of the scriptures themselves for the last twelve years. The LXX, the Interlinear, Ussher's Annals of the World, the ECF, Josephus...these are on my desk continuously.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Fantasy, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

Too much TV. Humans and Klingons can't mate.

True, but "celestial bodies" of the angels renders them more than spirit beings. They are material of another species than our own.

Scripture contradicts you:

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. Heb 1:6–8.

And here Paul correlates the flesh of men and the flesh of other creatures on the planet.

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 1 Cor. 15:39.

Then he takes his statements to earth and the planets in heaven:

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 1 Cor. 15:40

Then he talks about the beauty/glory of the sun, moon and the stars:

41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 1 Cor 15:41.

In effect he says that all flesh is not the same flesh. and all glory of God's creation is not the same glory. I understand this being an astronomer and having studied the heavens. BUT NEVER does Paul say the angels have bodies, instead they are SPIRITS. And spirits don't have bodies, nor do they have creative powers like God to create bodies. If you believe this, then you give way too much glory to Lucifer and his angels.

Angels don't have material form. They are SPIRIT beings as Paul describes. So, if you go beyond what Paul said, and you seem to want to use Paul to your own use, then accept what he says about the angels being SPIRIT. That should put a stop to your present belief and look more closely and study further on angelology.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The SB church with Reformed leaders that I was a member of for 16 years up until 7 years ago would also laugh at the charge of being influenced by liberalism. I have been drinking directly from the well of the scriptures themselves for the last twelve years. The LXX, the Interlinear, Ussher's Annals of the World, the ECF, Josephus...these are on my desk continuously.

Same here. 46 years last month.
And in my early years of being taught I was taught Arminian theology but always never accepted the belief the sons of God were angels knowing that they are immaterial and humans are material. Sometimes things are just clear on the face of it without the mental gymnastics to come to the conclusions you have.
You haven't arrived. You are not all that. I recall after seven years I thought I was the ship but was humbled by my teacher (you see, I was discipled the way it was taught by Jesus. I lived with my teacher and his wife and several others) and being humbled and the experience as a whole being under the anointing and being taught by an anointed teacher, I will never forget all that I learned. It set the foundation of my learning in the years to come.
In time I put away childish things and one day you will too.
Then you'll think of me and smile.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Scripture contradicts you:

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. Heb 1:6–8.

This verse is not a contradiction to what I have posted. This verse does not claim that the members of the angelic realm are composed of only spirit and fire. We ourselves as humans are a combination created with a spirit, soul, and a terrestrial body. Angels have a celestial body as well as a spirit.

Jude 6-7 makes it plain that the fallen angels who "left their first estate" committed the very same sin "in like manner" that those in Sodom and the cities of the Jordan plain did - by "going after OTHER flesh" than their own. This tells us that angels originally had a certain type of flesh created by God for their species; a type of body which was used in the wrong manner by the fallen angels in Genesis 6. Theirs was not a flesh form which they created for themselves.

In time I put away childish things and one day you will too.

Yes, that's what I have been doing for the last twelve years. One by one, I have had to examine my former thought processes established from my youth, and compare them to what the scriptures actually had to say. Some of those former impressions have withstood the test, but many, many I have had to lay aside. It's a humiliating thing to realize that one has been misunderstanding many teachings of scripture their entire life. If I have given you the sense that I claim to have "arrived", then I haven't phrased my thoughts as well as I should have. As everyone else on here, I am a work in progress. And my "anointed teacher" is Christ - the only One I have available to me.

 

[jeremiah1five]

This verse is not a contradiction to what I have posted. This verse does not claim that the members of the angelic realm are composed of only spirit and fire. We ourselves as humans are a combination created with a spirit, soul, and a terrestrial body. Angels have a celestial body as well as a spirit.

Jude 6-7 makes it plain that the fallen angels who "left their first estate" committed the very same sin "in like manner" that those in Sodom and the cities of the Jordan plain did - by "going after OTHER flesh" than their own. This tells us that angels originally had a certain type of flesh created by God for their species; a type of body which was used in the wrong manner by the fallen angels in Genesis 6. Theirs was not a flesh form which they created for themselves.

Yes, that's what I have been doing for the last twelve years. One by one, I have had to examine my former thought processes established from my youth, and compare them to what the scriptures actually had to say. Some of those former impressions have withstood the test, but many, many I have had to lay aside. It's a humiliating thing to realize that one has been misunderstanding many teachings of scripture their entire life. If I have given you the sense that I claim to have "arrived", then I haven't phrased my thoughts as well as I should have. As everyone else on here, I am a work in progress. And my "anointed teacher" is Christ - the only One I have available to me.

You're really misunderstanding Scripture.
Let me guess, you use a modern-day new age translation. What is it, the NKJV, the NIV? Well, those translations are taken from corrupt Greek texts used by Westcott and Hort in the 1850s to make their Revised Version New Testament, the same texts used to make today's English translations and they are also corrupt "in like manner" to the corrupt Greek texts W&H used.
At any rate, here's the Scripture you are using:

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, in like manner giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jud 5–7.

The "in like manner" is these two cities and the cities around them. The word "even" in the beginning of verse 7 is not in the Greek text and the KJV translators inserted it. And the end of the verse connects what the people in Sodom and Gomorrah "and the cities around them" can expect for their sin "for an example" just like the angels that sinned before God created man.

Another thing...the word "strange" is not a good translation as the word is translated elsewhere as:

another 43
other 42
other thing 3
some 2
next day 2
miscellaneous translations 7
[Total Count: 99]

It means "different." Same word used in Galatians when Paul talks about "another" gospel which was the Old Covenant of circumcision of the flesh (foreskin.) You make a great leap to make that word mean "angels." Verse 7 is strictly speaking about men and there are no references to angels. The connection between verses 6 and 7 is a contrast to what God did to the angels that sinned and they sinned BEFORE man was created. If one cherub (Lucifer) was found with sin, then God dealt with ALL the angels that were found with sin and cast them down to hell and delivered them in chains of darkness to await judgment. And this happened after Genesis 1:1 and before verse 1:2.

Basically, you DON'T KNOW what their first estate was NOR when this happened. You are, along with others "in like manner," are adding to Scripture things that are not mentioned and are not there.
Angels are of the spirit world, but you want to give them bodies. They don't have genitals, they don't marry, and God ORDAINED that cats mate with cats and have more cats, but you want to challenge God's ordination of the species and call Him a liar and add your own interpretation to His Word things not written nor referred to. You are adding to the Bible and that is a sin.

 

[CrowCross]

And I replied that they were good angels on a mission from God and was necessary for God to create bodies or something similar.
And they were hungry so they ate.
It would have been disrespectful to refuse their host.

I've been hung up on your ...God is required for an angel to take on a material fleshly form. Do you have a verse that tells us this or will you continue to pass off speculation as truth?

 

[jeremiah1five]

I've been hung up on your ...God is required for an angel to take on a material fleshly form. Do you have a verse that tells us this or will you continue to pass off speculation as truth?

I’ve heard of a Creator God but I’ve never heard of a Creator Angel

 

[3 Resurrections]

The "in like manner" is these two cities and the cities around them. The word "even" in the beginning of verse 7 is not in the Greek text and the KJV translators inserted it. And the end of the verse connects what the people in Sodom and Gomorrah "and the cities around them" can expect for their sin "for an example" just like the angels that sinned before God created man.

Another thing...the word "strange" is not a good translation as the word is translated elsewhere as:

You're absolutely right, that "strange" is not a great translation. This is why I have repeatedly used the word "OTHER flesh" for the Jude 7 verse, meaning a different variety of flesh is being described. The word "AS" in Jude 7 tells me we are being given a direct "Like" comparison of an identical sin committed by the fallen angels as well as Sodom and the cities of the Jordan plain. In both instances, the angels and the men of Sodom had gone after "OTHER flesh" which was not of their own kind. This cannot be in reference to their homosexual actions. Homosexuality between human males is not going after "OTHER flesh", because both human males are composed of the same flesh and blood substance.

Jude says in verse 8 that "LIKEWISE ALSO" (just like the fallen angels and like the men of Sodom and the other cities had done) "these filthy dreamers DEFILE THE FLESH, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities..." Those ungodly men, the "filthy dreamers" which Jude was referring to in his own time were "defiling the flesh", just like the fallen angels had "defiled the flesh" of their own species by marrying human women and begetting children by them; and just like Sodom's men had gone after fornication and the pursuit of "OTHER flesh" unlike their own species.

(By the way, in case it helps you at all to know my background, the version I was taught from my Christian schooling from elementary school upwards was always the KJV, even though I do not use this version exclusively in my studies. I rather prefer the LXX and the YLT or the Interlinear, since I can follow the connection to Greek terms more easily, but I think all the translations bring at least something to the table.)

Basically, you DON'T KNOW what their first estate was NOR when this happened

Well, we don't know exactly when the angelic realm was first created, but it had to be some time before the six-day creation week, because the sons of God shouted for joy (a physical act of rejoicing by material creatures) at that creative work. We have some assurance of what the angels' "first estate" was, by looking at Ezekiel 28:11-19's description of the anointed cherub's creation before iniquity was found in him. That anointed cherub was "full of wisdom" and "perfect in beauty" (which tells us that the anointed cherub who fell had a physical, material appearance, and was not just a spirit).

The manner of destruction for this anointed cherub who was once in Eden was going to be a physical one as well. God promised that "therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." This was going to be a visually perceptible destruction of the anointed cherub, with humankind watching it happen on the earth as that anointed cherub was being burned into ashes in front of them.

they sinned BEFORE man was created. If one cherub (Lucifer) was found with sin, then God dealt with ALL the angels that were found with sin and cast them down to hell and delivered them in chains of darkness to await judgment. And this happened after Genesis 1:1 and before verse 1:2.

This idea of a simultaneous fall of the entire group of disobedient angels at one fell swoop is a presumption that there really is no scripture to prove. I believe there are scriptural grounds for seeing them fall from their first estate at various times by various sinful actions spread out over time - one of which sins was in marrying wives of the daughters of men and siring hybrid sons by them.
.

 

[CrowCross]

I’ve heard of a Creator God but I’ve never heard of a Creator Angel

There's no creation involved...it's what they are and what they do.

 

[Wordsmith]

He knew the angels were sinful for that is the only way God can create them for He does not give His glory to His creatures.
That is why angel and man sinned. They were created sinful.

Wow. God can only create a sinful angel???? And you question my beliefs?????

 

[Wordsmith]

The original substance of the angels were spirit. They were given male bodies.

How do you know that did you inspect the genitals?

 

[CrowCross]

Wow. God can only create a sinful angel???? And you question my beliefs?????

He doesn't seem to understand created sinful and the ability to sin.

Adam wasn't created requiring salvation.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I've been hung up on your ...God is required for an angel to take on a material fleshly form. Do you have a verse that tells us this or will you continue to pass off speculation as truth?

First, the angels that sinned were cast down to hell delivered in chains of darkness reserved unto judgment.
I place this casting down between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 BEFORE man was created. You place them in Genesis 6 in making them copulate with human women which is impossible resulting in God chaining them up.
I also believe in the Sovereignty of God over His creation. It would be stupid of God to create what He did and yet cannot control the outcome. But ALL angels, and in TIME, man are subservient to God and OBEY God for He is Sovereign over His creation.
Angels are spirit beings, no body, don't have creative attributes like Creator God to create bodies, are immaterial and cannot be seen, have no genitals as all angels are male and angels don't engage in HOLY matrimony.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. Heb 1:7.

You'd do better to place their being chained as a result of their inward rebellion against God between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

IF the angels that sinned are all locked up BEFORE God created man, and there are Scriptures of angels having bodies THAT APPEAR as men, like the angels that destroyed Sodom these are elect angels that did not sin and serve God, seraphims in heaven and cherubs on earth, for the purpose of God. And since these are the only servants of God still around and not doing time in the hokie God would create some sort of material substance we call bodies for their mission on earth.
Then there is Christophanies, the Word having a body that the Bible describes as the Angel of the Lord (but all angels are angels of the Lord if the angels that sinned are locked up which Peter and Jude say they are.
The only evil and sin in the world comes from man.

 

[jeremiah1five]

There's no creation involved...it's what they are and what they do.

Angels are spirit.

7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. Heb 1:7.

Spirits like wind have no body. Besides, the angels that sinned are all locked up.

 

[Wordsmith]

I place their "leaving their first estate of habitation" as their inward rebellion against God between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. I believe their "first estate habitation" was on the planet and that was their ministry or purpose. I believe they were hoping to join Lucifer and ascend into heaven which for me IS leaving their first estate of habitation but I also believe that they could not act it out because God KNEW (He found sin in Lucifer) and that was when they were cast DOWN to hell and this corresponds to Jesus saying He saw Satan fall as lightning (that's how fast God dealt with their thoughtful attack against God's Sovereignty.)

So if I understand you correctly you believe the angels rebelled "between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2", where then cast down and locked in chains?

Daniel 10:11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood trembling.

12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.

13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Please tell us who or what entity was sent by God to answer Daniels prayer? I say it was an angel sent from God.

Now tell us who or what entity withstood the angel from God for 21 days and required the help of the angel Michael to prevail?
That would be and angel of the fallen variety but herin lies a problem witnyour doctrine . You think they are ALL locked up in chains.
Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

My friend we do not wrestle against chained up angels you are WRONG, ALL fallen angels are not locked up there was a sin after the rebellion and you cannot explain it with your false doctrine on angels. Don't even try to tell me the rulers in Ephesian 6:12 are human evil rulers because the text clearly says they are not flesh and blood (humans).

 

[jeremiah1five]

Wow. God can only create a sinful angel???? And you question my beliefs?????

God cannot reduplicate Himself.
So, whatever He creates will be fallen short of His glory.
And that's what happen.
There is only ONE God. Do you believe this?
There is NONE like Him. Do you believe this?
He gives His glory to NO ONE. Do you believe this?
If and when you do, then you'll understand.

 

[jeremiah1five]

How do you know that did you inspect the genitals?

Did you inspect their bodies? Make sure they had bodies at all?

 

[jeremiah1five]

He doesn't seem to understand created sinful and the ability to sin.

Adam wasn't created requiring salvation.

Of course, God created Adam who was created sinful as requiring salvation.
God ordained the NEW MAN in being born again as being born into the family of God and having the image of Christ imputed in them. THIS is the image of God that He ordained for His people still yet future when the Holy Spirit would come.
Well, He's come, and the NEW man exists.

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Eph 4:24.

Adam was not the new man. Adam was the old man, natural, earthy, and Christ is from above.
We are being conformed into the image of Christ not Adam.
The image of God is not Adam but Christ. And there is no better image of a Father than a Son.