THE ANGELS THAT SINNED

[CrowCross]

Where did demons come from?
And what are they?

I'm not 100% dogmatic on this...but pretty close...demons are the spirits of the giants mentioned in Gen 6 after some of the fallen angels procreated with the daughters of men.

 

[CrowCross]

Those were good angels serving God and God created bodies from them.

That's speculation.....or do you have a verse that says that?

No, you want to assign "sons of God" in Genesis 6 as angels which is not correct. Angels don't have free will nor can they create [bodies].

Says who?

Creation is an act of God alone. And God would not create bodies for them for the purpose of evil. God is not tempted with evil neither tempts he anyone - man included.
So, do angels have the Deific Attribute of creation?

The book of Job tells us who the "sons of God" (angels) are. Would you like me to post the verses or do you already know them?

 

[Wordsmith]

Jude says the angels "left their first state of habitation but doesn't say what that was. You want to place them in Genesis 6 without biblical support.

Strange flesh means flesh or people not sanctioned by God.

Jude verse 7 absolutely sets the context. Jude 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Even as Sodom and Gomorrah and giving themselves over to FORNICATION. Give us your definition of fornication. There was unnatural sexual activity in S & G and there was unnatural sexual activity in Genesis 6 hence the terms “strange flesh” and fornication.

 

[Wordsmith]

Jude says the angels "left their first state of habitation but doesn't say what that was. You want to place them in Genesis 6 without biblical support.

You have been given Biblical support several times and you ignore it.

 

[Keiw1]

4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment. 2 Peter 2:4.

The number of angels that sinned are one-third.

They are ALL "cast to hell, and delivered in chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment."

ALL the angels that sinned.

This means that any and all evil in the world is the result of the sinful nature in mankind.
And it is all-encompassing:

5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only.
Gen. 6:5.

This explains a great deal, such as the sons of God who married the daughters of men were human, those from the Covenant line of Seth and the ungodly line of men and women who disobeyed the LORD.

Jesus seeing Satan fall as lightning was at the time God cast them to hell reserved in chains of darkness awaiting the judgment.

There is no Satan except as the word is used: adjective and noun - "adversary."

The angels that sinned are the angels who fought by satans side at the war in heaven( 1914)--This occurred in heaven. They were cast to the earth. So Peter's words are symbolism. Job 1:7-proves satan is real.

 

[jeremiah1five]

I'm not 100% dogmatic on this...but pretty close...demons are the spirits of the giants mentioned in Gen 6 after some of the fallen angels procreated with the daughters of men.

It's unreasonable to think and believe spirit beings can marry and mate with material human women.
I can't believe you think they can. Maybe you should step back and really consider the mental gymnastics involved to actually think this is even possible.
Do you believe angels have free will?
Do you believe that angels and man are two different "flesh" as described in 1 Corinthians?

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 1 Cor. 15:39–40.

For your belief to happen God would have created all angels with genitals and also with DNA and sperm compatible with human women.
To believe what you think God would have done so just for the act of what you say happened in Genesis 6.
To believe what you think is impossible.
You're going to have to figure this out on your own because you're not listening to logic and reason.
You need to think this through.

 

[jeremiah1five]

That's speculation.....or do you have a verse that says that?

1. God created all things in heaven and earth.
2. God is Sovereign over all creation.
3. There is no free will in angel or human.
4. Angels don't have bodies or natural substance. They are spirit beings.
5. If God has no final say or has any order in His creation, then He is a false God and I'd rather serve someone who has all power and authority over creation for the simple fact of my security.
I could go on but I don't believe you want to be REASONable about the Scripture and its interpretation.
To believe all you believe is just impossible.

Says who?

Let's say angels and man have free will as is commonly believed in this Arminian age of biblical reasoning. It is also said that with this free will God will not violate a created beings' free will, right? Well consider the actuality of this scenario: I go to the park with my son every Sunday afternoon to play catch and ice cream. Suddenly, I hear a trumpet, the sky opens and there's Jesus Christ returning to end all time and judge the 'world.' Right here God has just violated my free will. My will was to go to the park, but God interfered with my will and all my plans are ended.

The book of Job tells us who the "sons of God" (angels) are. Would you like me to post the verses or do you already know them?

I know the whole "sons of God" understanding because Job says the morning stars sang together and the sons of God shouted for joy, and this is supposed to happen before God created man. But I also know that there is only ONE "ONLY BEGOTTEN" Son of God and that's all there is to it. God never refers to angels as sons only in the minds of men who don't understand God has only ONE Son Scripture speaks of. You haven't thought these things through to a reasonable conclusion. And I'm not the Holy Spirit to change your mind and I'm really not going to take this post off on another subject. The Scripture says that "the angels that sinned (and I hold that this sinning occurred BEFORE God created man between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2) were cast down to hell and delivered in chains of darkness awaiting judgment."
This is in 2 Peter 2:4 and this verse is very clear. ALL the angels that sinned are locked up. But you place this being locked up as the result of their leaving their "first estate of habitation" as their marrying thousands of human women and having babies with them and THEN God locking them up.
I can't go there. It's not logical, it's not reasonable, and I have this aversion to false belief about God.
And as I said, I am not the Holy Spirit and I'm not going to change your mind. Keep your belief. For me it's just too far out there to consider so I won't.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You have been given Biblical support several times and you ignore it.

I place their "leaving their first estate of habitation" as their inward rebellion against God between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. I believe their "first estate habitation" was on the planet and that was their ministry or purpose. I believe they were hoping to join Lucifer and ascend into heaven which for me IS leaving their first estate of habitation but I also believe that they could not act it out because God KNEW (He found sin in Lucifer) and that was when they were cast DOWN to hell and this corresponds to Jesus saying He saw Satan fall as lightning (that's how fast God dealt with their thoughtful attack against God's Sovereignty.)
I ignore the unsound conclusions. I accept the Scripture at face value and believe the literal before I go and spiritualize and go beyond the bounds of reason.
There's no way you're going to accept my position and I'm going to accept yours.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The angels that sinned are the angels who fought by satans side at the war in heaven( 1914)--This occurred in heaven. They were cast to the earth. So Peter's words are symbolism. Job 1:7-proves satan is real.

You're Jehovah Witness.

 

[CrowCross]

It's unreasonable to think and believe spirit beings can marry and mate with material human women.
I can't believe you think they can. Maybe you should step back and really consider the mental gymnastics involved to actually think this is even possible.
Do you believe angels have free will?
Do you believe that angels and man are two different "flesh" as described in 1 Corinthians?

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 1 Cor. 15:39–40.

For your belief to happen God would have created all angels with genitals and also with DNA and sperm compatible with human women.
To believe what you think God would have done so just for the act of what you say happened in Genesis 6.
To believe what you think is impossible.
You're going to have to figure this out on your own because you're not listening to logic and reason.
You need to think this through.

I'm just telling you what Gen 6 says. If you disagree then so be it.

 

[CrowCross]

4. Angels don't have bodies or natural substance. They are spirit beings.

I proved with Lot they can have material bodies.

Let's say angels and man have free will as is commonly believed in this Arminian age of biblical reasoning. It is also said that with this free will God will not violate a created beings' free will, right? Well consider the actuality of this scenario: I go to the park with my son every Sunday afternoon to play catch and ice cream. Suddenly, I hear a trumpet, the sky opens and there's Jesus Christ returning to end all time and judge the 'world.' Right here God has just violated my free will. My will was to go to the park, but God interfered with my will and all my plans are ended.

Did you have free will when you were born? No,

 

[jeremiah1five]

I proved with Lot they can have material bodies.

Those were good angels whose bodies were provided by God.

Did you have free will when you were born? No,

Perfect.
Nor do we have free will when born again.

 

[Keiw1]

You're Jehovah Witness.

Yes

 

[Wordsmith]

The angels that sinned are the angels who fought by satans side at the war in heaven( 1914)-

Evidence from scripture please?

 

[Wordsmith]

I ignore the unsound conclusions.

As do I .

I accept the Scripture at face value and believe the literal before I go and spiritualize and go beyond the bounds of reason.

I agree with the literal part but the human reasoning part will get you into trouble everytime with Scripture.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.

There's no way you're going to accept my position and I'm going to accept yours.

Agreed! I am not here to convince you I am here to counter false teaching on this topic.

 

[Wordsmith]

3. There is no free will in angel or human.

Please explain this position in relation to the angels that fell. Did they not choose to follow satan? Did not satan choose to rebell against God?

So is all of creation is just a puppet for God to play with?

I am not sure how you define "freewill" but it is a concept found in scripture.

Proverbs 1:29
For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:

Many passages show we can make choices.

 

[CrowCross]

Those were good angels whose bodies were provided by God.

More speculation.

If you want to say that "you think" it's that way...go for it. Stop presenting your position as biblical fact.

Perfect.
Nor do we have free will when born again.

 

[jeremiah1five]

As do I .

I agree with the literal part but the human reasoning part will get you into trouble everytime with Scripture.

Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.



Agreed! I am not here to convince you I am here to counter false teaching on this topic.

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:
Is 1:18.

Scripture is reasonable.
That's the function of the mind and that's why God gave us minds.
Salvation occurs in the mind. Repentance is a changed mind. A healed mind. One whose demons/evil spirit/attitudes have been cast OUT.
Later, our bodies will be changed, and we will be restored to the true image of God, not that image that many believe God gave Adam at creation.
The image of God is Christ, not Adam. There is no better image of a Father than a Son.
We are being conformed into the image of Christ not Adam.
But too many Christians are man-centered anyway and have not seen God in ALL His revealed Perfect Sovereign Holy and Righteous Glory.
A glory He did not give to angels or man.
Thus, they were created fallen short of the glory of God and "missing the mark" of God's glory.
That's why they sinned.
They sinned because they were sinners.
Sin comes from sinners. Sin does not come from holy.

 

[jeremiah1five]

More speculation.

If you want to say that "you think" it's that way...go for it. Stop presenting your position as biblical fact.

So God created angels with creative attributes?
They can create bodies at will?
Bull.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Please explain this position in relation to the angels that fell. Did they not choose to follow satan? Did not satan choose to rebell against God?

Choice is not choice when there is only one path and no way to deviate from that path.
God knows ALL things.
He knows the end from the beginning because He has ordained the end.
He knew He wasn't giving His glory to any of His creatures.
He knew that He was creating creatures fallen short of His glory of holiness and perfection.
He knew the angels were sinful for that is the only way God can create them for He does not give His glory to His creatures.
That is why angel and man sinned. They were created sinful.
God knew this when He created them.
He knew the end product BEFORE He created them.
God could not give holiness to angel and man for possessing only ONE natural or Deific Attribute of God they would STILL fall short of His glory for in order to stand before a Holy and Righteous God one had to possess ALL the natural and Deific Attributes of God, or they would fall short of His glory. And only the Son possessed ALL the natural and Deific Attributes of God and was able to stand before a Holy and Righteous God.
So, for those that hold angel and man were created holy fall short in their reasoning.
Scripture says "sin was found in Lucifer the cherub that covereth" and it wasn't because God didn't know he was sinful or that He was inspecting Lucifer after his creation and 'found' sin. The only rebellion was in his mind. He never acted upon his desire to 'ascend into heaven and be like God' he was already in first heaven covering the throne of God on earth when God knew the instant Lucifer thought about 'ascending' and addressed it. And immediately Lucifer and his fellow angels that God created sinful were cast down to hell delivered in chains of darkness awaiting judgment.
There is no choice to do 'good' when one is created sinful. They will sin which is what angel and man did.

So is all of creation is just a puppet for God to play with?

That's the reasoning of fallen men who do not know God and Scripture. They don't understand the Eternalness of God and that angel and man were created in TIME and have the ability to choose between chocolate and vanilla, but to choose from their evil sinful nature to do 'good' WITHOUT the anointing of the Holy Spirit all choices will be sinful for they are not choices in accordance to the will of God and anointed. The anointing is which enables a sinful person of low means and station to STAND before the King. Ask Esther who for six months had to endure anointing before she could approach the king. There is lesson in this, and I understand it. Without Christ, without Christ's Spirit, without the Holy Spirit God hears NO PRAYERS of the unsaved. For they approach God without the Holy Spirit who accompanies His elect's prayers. Thus, their prayers are sin. So, how can unbelievers approach God for salvation WITHOUT the Holy Spirit? He can't. Thus, there is no free will UNLESS God wills a thing.
The man asking for healing said to Christ, "If thou WILL thou can make me clean." Jesus said, "I WILL. Be thou clean." There was no free will in his healing and there is no salvation in our unless God wills it so where's the free will except within the confines of our realm in TIME to choose chocolate or vanilla? But a sinful person without God cannot even approach God let alone be saved unless God makes the first move and wills it.
Enjoy your chocolate.

I am not sure how you define "freewill" but it is a concept found in scripture.

Salvation is of the Lord. There is no free will when one is servant and bound in sin. All they know is sin. They can't choose good without the Holy Spirit who anoints the choice when it is in accordance with God's will. Otherwise, it is rebellion against God. Thoughts and attitudes NOT in accordance with God's will is rebellion and sin for it is the creatures will that seeks to be sovereign before a truly Sovereign God over His creation.
There is no free will in angel or man. There is only willful rebellion against God and God's prerogative is to deal with it immediately or let His longsuffering wait till the last day and deal with it altogether. But from our perspective in TIME we think we have free will but you can will all you want to go to heaven or be saved. Unless God opens the door you are outside the city with the dogs and murderers and thieves.

Proverbs 1:29
For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:

The prophet is speaking to believers in Covenant with God and God is dealing with a stiff-necked people.

Many passages show we can make choices.

Sure. I agree.
But make distinction first between Covenant and non-Covenant, obedient and disobedient. Saved and unsaved and stop treating believers like unbelievers and unbelievers like believers. That, too, is sin. And a choice you make. But to be saved God is following the book of like with names of those predestined to salvation and He does no deviate from it. ALL of those people whose names are in the book of life of the lamb slain will repent and come to God because God WILLS it, not man.