THE ANGELS THAT SINNED

[Marilyn C]

Hello MC. Haven't seen you in a few weeks. Hope you're well.
I can accept that realizing there are no "real" chain in the contemporary sense in Eternity which is Himself as ONLY God is Eternal and creation is not.

If locked up they can have no influence upon mankind. The sin nature in man is all the fallen-ness in the world.

I agree with being thrown in the Lake of Fire but a person's own making of hell or eternal torment I believe to be the following:

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 1 Cor. 15:56.

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. Lk 16:23–24.

I believe that being in eternal separation from God is painful and hurts. If it is sin that has separated men from God, then the pain of torments in my mind just may be a stinging sensation. And a stinging sensation over time may feel like a burning sensation if you've ever been stung before by some insect.
Since sin is death and death is sin and it says "the sting of death is sin" it is not unreasonable that the sting of eternal separation from God can feel like burning over time.
So, if at the moment of death, it feels like a sting no amount of clicking your heels will change the fact that you're not in Kansas anymore.

Well, if Lucifer is Satan [adversary] then he would also be locked in chains awaiting judgment. The word "satan" has been used of men in the Old Testament for sure but the predominant belief in the Church is that the angels that sinned are NOT cast down and delivered in chains of darkness awaiting judgment and are still roaming the planet wreaking havoc on mankind which I now disagree. Have I worked out all the kinks of this understanding which I now believe I have not but there are Scriptures that are challenging. Still, Peter says that the angels that sinned - and that means ALL of them - were cast down to hell delivered in chains of darkness reserved unto judgment is a hard Scripture to get past in order to continue to say that Lucifer, Satan, the Devil are still loose on the planet. Everyone seems, no, not seems, ACTUALLY ignore what Peter said and believe that the angels that sinned are still loose on the planet.

More than conquerors, MC.

Hi jeremiah,

Thanks for asking, however I have been on the forum in other areas. Glad we agree on the `chains,` and the same is for `locked up,` meaning under God`s limitations. Just pictorial language as chains or locks are no good for spirit beings. It is the authoritative word of God that limits them.

 

[juxtaposeraphim]

yes it is defiantly a spiritual battle, there are many who are willing to be used by evil to harm others and squash and trod down others in a physical way to reach their pleasures and self gratification.

prayer and meditation on the Lord and trusting in his word is able to deliver.

 

[jeremiah1five]

That verse doesn't statre angels can't procreate with humans.

"For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven."

The question is How can spirit beings' mate with material beings?
Impossible. They are two different creations by God.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. This passage does not say what you claim.

Angels, especially the angels that sinned do not enter into HOLY bonds of matrimony.

1. Fallen angels are no longer angels of God.

Of course, the angels that sinned are STILL angels God created and they are STILL servants of God and are obedient to God for God is Sovereign over His creation and the angels that sinned are out of the picture because they are locked up and can do humans no harm.

2. No passage tells us all angels can or cannot do fallen or not.

Angels, fallen or otherwise are still servants of God and do whatever God commands them to do.

3. Angels can appear as men so that we can not tell the difference.

Only God's Elect angels can appear as men like they did in the OT. But angels, fallen or otherwise do not have creative powers and cannot create bodies.

4. Fallen angels are not in heaven.

The angels that sinned were cast down to hell delivered in chains of darkness awaiting judgment.

This passage is often used as a proof text to counter the Genesis six event but falls far short from doing so. All we can derive from this passage is there is no need for marriage in heaven. This is no proof text to say what fallen angels can or cannot do.

ALL angels, the ones that sinned and the ones that didn't are subservient to God. They do whatever God commands. And for the angels that sinned God commanded they be locked up. The angels that didn't sin are in His Presence awaiting His commands (if any.)

 

[Wordsmith]

God did not give angels sexual apparatus and then not let them procreate. As to angels appearing as men, that is all `appearing.`

We can agree to disagree. Jude also disagrees with you as well as Genesis 6 . Angels of God in heaven have no need nor desire to procreate. Fallen angels tend to pervert anything God created and neither you nor I know the extent of power given to angels. Angels looked like men ate food with men. Preverted men wanted to have sex with them.

I totally get why this is unpopular with many Christians but so far your arguments against this are not scripturally valid and do nothing to actually deal with the passages that talk about this. Matthew 22:30 seems to be the first line defense in every conversation I have had about this topic but it absolutely does not refute Genesis 6 and Jude 6 & 7. It says nothing about fallen angels and what they can or cannot do.

It is assumed by many the sin that the angels committed is the rebellion but all fallen angels are not in chains some are still active in the earth despite what the OP here will tell us. That sin is clearly stated in Jude 7 and described in Genesis 6: 2 & 4. We are probably never going to agree on this but if you want to take a shot at those passages I list I am all ears.

 

[Wordsmith]

The question is How can spirit beings' mate with material beings?
Impossible. They are two different creations by God.

This is an argument based on flawed human reasoning and does not deal with anything written in scripture.

 

[Wordsmith]

Angels, especially the angels that sinned do not enter into HOLY bonds of matrimony.

Scripture does not describe what the Fallen angels did as "Holy bonds of matrimony" This is what Jude said about it. This was abhorrent to God.

Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

 

[Wordsmith]

Of course, the angels that sinned are STILL angels God created and they are STILL servants of God and are obedient to God for God is Sovereign over His creation and the angels that sinned are out of the picture because they are locked up and can do humans no harm.

False!

 

[Wordsmith]

Only God's Elect angels can appear as men like they did in the OT. But angels, fallen or otherwise do not have creative powers and cannot create bodies.

You have no idea what fallen angels can or cannot do. If you think so post the scripture that gives you that knowledge. Its not in the Bible!

 

[Wordsmith]

ALL angels, the ones that sinned and the ones that didn't are subservient to God. They do whatever God commands. And for the angels that sinned God commanded they be locked up. The angels that didn't sin are in His Presence awaiting His commands (if any.)

False! If this were true some of them would not have sinned. Many of your arguments have no basis in scripture. God did command that some be held in chains but the rest of the fallen angels still work against the kingdom of God and are not taking orders from Him. This is easily provable from scripture to anyone who looks at the whole of scripture and not just a misreading of 2 Peter.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Scripture does not describe what the Fallen angels did as "Holy bonds of matrimony" This is what Jude said about it. This was abhorrent to God.

Jude 6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Jude says the angels "left their first state of habitation but doesn't say what that was. You want to place them in Genesis 6 without biblical support.

Strange flesh means flesh or people not sanctioned by God.

 

[jeremiah1five]

This is an argument based on flawed human reasoning and does not deal with anything written in scripture.

Nope. God ordained that humans mate with humans and produce more humans.
It is ordained by God and cannot be changed.
In the material world cats mate with cats and produce more cats. A cat cannot mate with a dog and produce any offspring because the DNA does not match. That's God ordination on the species and the sexes.
Unless of course, you want to show me in the bible such an offspring between a horse and a moose. Or ANY off-species offspring.
You won't find it because it is impossible.
Wanting angels which are spirit being to mate with human women is a pet theory and a self-deception that is impossible.
When I stick my hand out of a moving car and catch air it goes over me not through me.
Incredible.

 

[jeremiah1five]

False!

I believe Scripture is clear that God is Sovereign over ALL His creation according to the good pleasure of His will.
Nothing happens unless ordained by God.
But you seem to have a belief that created beings are Sovereign over God and do whatever they want.
I suppose UFO's are angels that have taken upon themselves to create craft to fly through our atmosphere.

 

[jeremiah1five]

You have no idea what fallen angels can or cannot do. If you think so post the scripture that gives you that knowledge. Its not in the Bible!

To create is an Attribute of Deity/God.
Angels are not God.
You give too much power to fallen angels and other created beings.
Way too much.

 

[jeremiah1five]

False! If this were true some of them would not have sinned. Many of your arguments have no basis in scripture. God did command that some be held in chains but the rest of the fallen angels still work against the kingdom of God and are not taking orders from Him. This is easily provable from scripture to anyone who looks at the whole of scripture and not just a misreading of 2 Peter.

Like Lucifer who is a cherub it says in Scripture that sin was found in him. It doesn't say he acted on that sin. Merely having thoughts contrary to God is sin and that's what he did. He wanted to ascend into heaven and be like God but before he could act upon it, he and his buddies were cast down to hell delivered unto chains of darkness reserved unto judgment.
No visits.
No parole.
No pardon.
LOCKED UP.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Hi jeremiah,

Thanks for asking, however I have been on the forum in other areas. Glad we agree on the `chains,` and the same is for `locked up,` meaning under God`s limitations. Just pictorial language as chains or locks are no good for spirit beings. It is the authoritative word of God that limits them.

Don't be discouraged by Wordsmith's rejection of the Holy Writ. You have a reasonable mind that can think for yourself, and you are on the right track on this subject.
I find it amazing really how professed Christians can take a Scripture and wrest it and twist it to their own destruction. Something as clear as 2 Peter 2:4 is not hard to understand. But there are those that lean on their own understanding in the vanity of their mind.

 

[CrowCross]

Not IN the pigs. AMONG. Within the herd.

Mark 5:12 So the demons begged Jesus, “Send us to the pigs, so that we may enter them.”

Luke 8:32There on the hillside a large herd of pigs was feeding. So the demons begged Jesus to let them enter the pigs, and He gave them permission.
33Then the demons came out of the man and went into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and was drowned.

So, show me a Scripture or event of Jesus healing a mental sickness.
People have these illnesses even more than physical sickness.
Surely there's gotta be some Scripture. Jesus wouldn't heal the body without also healing the mind don't you think?
Or did Jesus completely ignore people with mental illness?

I believe Jesus healed the mentally ill...but, demonization isn't a mental illness. It may cause a mental illness but the cause is a spirit being called a demon living inside of a person.

Here's another example...
Acts 16:16 One day as we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl with a spirit of divination, who earned a large income for her masters by fortune-telling......Q, How would mental illness give one the ability to fortune tell?

 

[CrowCross]

The question is How can spirit beings' mate with material beings?
Impossible. They are two different creations by God.

The bible says they can take a material human form.

Secondly the Bible says they took wives and they bore them children.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Mark 5:12 So the demons begged Jesus, “Send us to the pigs, so that we may enter them.”

Luke 8:32There on the hillside a large herd of pigs was feeding. So the demons begged Jesus to let them enter the pigs, and He gave them permission.
33Then the demons came out of the man and went into the pigs, and the herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and was drowned.

I believe Jesus healed the mentally ill...but, demonization isn't a mental illness. It may cause a mental illness but the cause is a spirit being called a demon living inside of a person.

Here's another example...
Acts 16:16 One day as we were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl with a spirit of divination, who earned a large income for her masters by fortune-telling......Q, How would mental illness give one the ability to fortune tell?

Where did demons come from?
And what are they?

 

[jeremiah1five]

The bible says they can take a material human form.

Those were good angels serving God and God created bodies from them.

Secondly the Bible says they took wives and they bore them children.

No, you want to assign "sons of God" in Genesis 6 as angels which is not correct. Angels don't have free will nor can they create [bodies]. Creation is an act of God alone. And God would not create bodies for them for the purpose of evil. God is not tempted with evil neither tempts he anyone - man included.
So, do angels have the Deific Attribute of creation?