Peter is in agreement with Jude and Genesis are you are in disagreement with all of them.
THE ANGELS THAT SINNED
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jeremiah1five
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How does Genesis come in this?
We have already been over Genesis 6, those are fallen angles as well and they are the only ones in chains!
Psalm 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
2 How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
3 Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
5 They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
Verse 6 refers to fallen angels (sons of God) children of the most high.
7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
Something other than men because they will die like men!
8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
Tells us Jeremiah1five who are the scholars that hold to your opinion? I am sad that you are sad with my posts but I will bring the receipts and back what I say with scripture and proof that what I am saying is not just wild idea I just made up.
I will be watching for references from respected Bible scholars and church leaders that support what you say here.
I will be watching for references from respected Bible scholars and church leaders that support what you say here.
In a debate situation it is your claim you show us!
There is no scripture to show demons are just attitudes nor is there any scripture to show ALL fallen angels are currently in chains.
jeremiah1five
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John MacArthur is antichrist. He denies the Life of Christ in His Church, the Body of His people.
He does this by denying the existence of apostle and prophet in the Church.
Michael Hiser? Forgot more about ancient language than most people know. Where are your scholars?
Red Baker
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jeremiah1five
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Those that deny the truth of Peter's statement under inspiration of the Holy Spirit reject the revealed Word of God.
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Pe 2:3–4.
The angels that DID NOT sin serve God before His Presence.
The angels that DID sin He cast down to hell and delivered them ALL into chains of darkness reserved unto judgment.
Since the New Testament revelation is the reality of Old Testament Truth, and since there is no Scripture in the Old Testament of "demons" as it is understood today, there can be no truth to today's understanding of "demons" in the contemporary way it is understood.
And since men have mental conditions that are caused by various reasons and that Jesus confronted people with physical maladies and healed them the only reasonable explanation of people with evil "spirits" in the New Testament and no clear-cut Scripture that describes Jesus healing mental conditions as there are for physical sickness it makes sense that these people HAD mental conditions that Jesus healed, such as the two people in Mark 5 and others.
But I'm not here to change your mind. That is the Ministry of the Holy Spirit, and since repentance occurs in the mind, and the fact that Scripture says that the (men) in Mark 5 was found "and in his RIGHT MIND," the only conclusion is that "demons" a word coined in the New Testament for there is no corresponding word in the Old Testament, a careful analysis of these events in which Jesus dealt with people with mental conditions can only be understood in this way. Attitude in men is powerful. Attitudes are immaterial, you can't see them, but you can feel them, and people with deranged minds need healing of their mind and conforming to the Word of God and His Spirit as much as physical healing.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. Rom. 12:2–3.
Attitude in our Christian walk is extremely important as attitude determines the course of ones thinking whether in prayer or worship. Cain's attitude in response to God was just as important as his words "Am I my brother's keeper?" The answer is YES, YOU ARE your brother's keeper.
God created spirit beings (angels) and God created natural beings (man.) The gift of discerning of spirits discerns the source of spiritual phenomenon and it discerns three spirits in existence:
1. the spirit of good angels.
2. the spirit of man.
3. The Spirit of God.
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul [of which the mind is part] and spirit [human spirit created in the saved person at the time of conversion], and of the joints and marrow [body], and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart [meaning the life as a whole for the 'heart' does not think, that function God has ordained for the mind]. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. Heb. 4:12–13.
Knowing Scripture one can discern the soul [mind], human spirit, and body of people of which they have to do. And since Jesus Christ was the One who Gave the Word to His prophets and other servants He knew when people had mental conditions that needed to be addressed before He dealt with any physical sickness people experienced, even to the point of commanding people to "Shut up! (Be silent, etc.)
If one cannot find the origin of today's acceptance of "demons" in the Old Testament there is no foundation for today's belief's concerning "demons/evil spirits."
jeremiah1five
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The Holy Spirit and Scripture.
Red Baker
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"This means that any and all evil in the world is the result of the sinful nature in mankind."
I have briefly read much of this thread, and must say I find it to be in serious error of the truth. It is not the first time coming across folks who believe that our sinful nature is Satan~who deny all angels and spirits, which is nothing more than the beliefs of Sadducees coming to life again.
Sir, your reasoning is very anti scriptural. If what you are saying you believe, then you must believe that God didn't create Adam and Even upright and provided all they needed to continue in that state. Adam was not created with a sinful nature. There was a Wicked person before Adam fell that tempted Adam and Eve~per 2nd Corinthians 11. Even Satan was not wicked when God created him and the other fallen angels. God created all things GOOD and upright and then left them to themselves, and not being immutable, fell as soon as God left them to themselves!
This is not that difficult to follow in the scriptures. Now to your scriptures quoted above.
2 Peter 2:4
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto the judgement."
"For if God spared not the angels that sinned"~By whom are meant the devil and his angels; who are spirits created by God and as such were good; their first estate which they left was pure and holy, as well as high and honourable; they, were at first in the truth, though they abode not in it; they were once among the morning stars and sons of God, and were angels of light; their numbers are many, and therefore are here expressed in the plural number, "angels", though it cannot be said how large, a number that cannot be counted.
"God spared not"~ Notwithstanding the dignity and excellency of their nature, in strict justice, and awful severity, without any mercy, inflicted due punishment on them; wherefore it cannot be thought that false teachers, who, as they, abide not in the truth, but deny and oppose it, should escape the vengeance of God, for they will not.
"but cast them down to hell"~In what sense are we to understand the word hell as used by Peter? It cannot be understood as the lake of fire, for that is after the judgment~for which they are reserved for...which is to come, as is evident by even the angles themselves:
Matthew 8:29
"And behold they cried out saying, What have we to do with thee Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?"
They know that there is a day appointed for them to be judge and then cast into the lake of fire, or into the deep, as used by Mark and Luke.
Also, the world is full of evil spirits as is evident by many scriptures in the NT, and in the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ. Hell in this scripture is explain to us by Peter as he said these words:
"and delivered them into chains of darkness"~When they left their first estate, by sinning, God Almighty delivered them into chains of darkness~which means their sins left them under the guilt of sin, which is the power of darkness, and in black despair; shutting them up in unbelief, impenitence, and hardness of mind; being holden with the cords of their sins, and in the most dreadful state of bondage and captivity to their lusts, in just judgment on them; and in the most miserable and uncomfortable condition, being driven from the realms of light, deprived of the face and presence of God, in the utmost horror and trembling, and fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery indignation to consume them; and in utter darkness, without the least glimmering of light, joy, peace, and comfort; and where there is nothing but weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and being also under the restraints of the power and providence of God, and not able to stir or move, or do anything without divine permission; and being likewise, by the everlasting, unalterable, and inscrutable purposes and decrees of God, appointed to everlasting wrath and destruction; by which they are consigned and bound over to it, and held fast, that they cannot escape it! They are there~
"to be reserved unto judgment"~And judge they shall be! By Jesus Christ and his saints. This is the prison of hell in which they are now suffering under, there waiting for that great day of the wrath of Almighty God. This hell, they will never escape from, they are forever under this chains of darkness and deception in which they are now living under. Their final abode will be destruction in the lake of fire and brimstone.
To teach there are no evil spirits in this world with Satan over them is to reject. scriptures.
Sir, I have a question for you: WHO TEMPTED CHRIST? According to you, it was the sinful nature of man within him? Are you going to tell us that Christ had a sinful nature that tempted him? Of course you will not, that would expose your error. So, WHO tempted Christ?
I have many more questions for you.
Red Baker
You have given yourself pope status. Sad.
Again you are above your pay grade. I disagree with MacArthur on some things but to call him Antichrist is over board. You have insinuated the same about me . You are out of line.
jeremiah1five
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That's correct.
The word “satan” occurs as a noun at various points in the Old Testament to designate a human opponent. It is translated in English Bibles as “adversary” or “enemy.” For example, King Solomon speaks of the opportunity he has to build a temple because of the absence of any “satan” or “adversary” to hinder him from this endeavor (1 Kgs 5:4). The term is also used by King David to speak of Abishai as an opponent or adversary (2 Sam 19:22).
The use of the word:
In the Old Testament, the word “satan” is also used in association with a supernatural figure. This is the case in the book of Numbers, where an Angel of the Lord is referred to as a “satan” when it obstructs the road being traveled by Balaam and his donkey (Num 22:22).
The Angel of the Lord is the Second Person of the Trinity. Is He Satan? Christ also call Peter "Satan." It's a word that Christians assign to Lucifer or some other fallen angel. But Scripture says the angels that sinned were cast into hell delivered in chains of darkness awaiting judgment. So, how can an angel that sinned be Satan? They're all locked up.
If your Satan is Lucifer, he, too, was created sinful just as Adam and the woman.
There is ONLY ONE God, there is none like Him and He gives His glory to NO ONE.
So, if the above is true then in what condition were the angels and man created but sinful which means "missing the mark" [of the glory of God.]
Sin was FOUND in Lucifer. He wasn't created perfect, or holy, or righteous. These are ALL Deific Attributes of God. If Adam was created perfect, or holy, or righteous and he sinned which is what he did, then sin comes from sinner it doesn't come from holy or righteous.
This passage is very clear and most true:
13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.
And who's to say this "ancient proverb isn't from the era of Adam and Eve?
The word "good" in Genesis means "good" [enough] or "to specification. Like a job well done, done good to specifications. If you want the other word that describes morally "good" it's not in the creation narrative. And if you think it means morally "good" I suppose the herbs and grass have morals, too.
11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. Gen. 1:11–12. (It was created to God's specification. It was "good" enough.)
There is no distinction between the Law(s) of God and His Commands. The Law of God are His Commands and the Commands of God are Law. And the Law/Command shows us men from Adam forward that we are ALL sinners. And the Command/Law of God was in the Garden showing through the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil God's purpose to show man/Adam he was evil and sinful:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen. 2:17.
What does Paul say?
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Rom. 7:7.
Adam: "I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known disobedience, except the law had said, Thou shalt not [eat of it.]"
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. Rom. 7:9–13.
How can they be holy when Holiness is the Nature of God? De He reduplicate or copy or mimic His Nature in a created being? Christ was Holy and one is Holy ONE DOES NOT SIN. So, who's in error in their understanding here? Me? No, it's YOU.
God is Holy. How long before God sin since you believe sin comes from holy?
Hell is the grave. Unseen. Darkness. And the angels that sinned are cast down to hell and in chains. There is no pardon, no release, nothing. chains.
Before the time [of WHAT?] Oh, it's a dotted line so that anyone can put their own sentence there and finish the thought. That's adding to the Bible. And the "us" is he and his partner in the tombs. You don't know what these two men knew. They were most likely "Jewish" and had mental conditions. Jesus cured physical sickness, but can you show me Scripture where Jesus cured a mental condition? Why is Scripture silent in this? But it's not. Jesus was dealing with a man who had mental issues and they knew who Jesus was because Jesus' fame went abroad the countryside. Before Jesus dealt with someone their attitude was the first thing He subdued if there was mental imbalance. Those that had the right attitude like the Roman centurion whose servant Jesus healed or Jairus who came to Jesus worshiping and begging. They had the right spirit or attitude.
You're making supposition. Jesus was dealing with men.
Yes, and because there is only ONE God, there is NONE LIKE HIM, and He gives His glory to no one these angels that sinned and Adam that sinned were created fallen short of the glory of God. The word for that is "sin." They sinned. Sin comes from sinner. Sin does not come from holy.
And you probably put their first estate where? And their sin? Probably when they created bodies for themselves and joined with human women in the HOLY BONDS of matrimony and had children, right? I put their leaving their first estate between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. And God destroyed the planet because the gifts and calling of God are without repentance which means God could not remove them from their ministry, but destroying the planet would serve that purpose very well in fierce anger that God turned the earth UPSIDE DOWN (Jer. 4:24ff and Isaiah 24:1.)
The angels that sinned sinned in the past before there was Adam (Jer. 4:24 "there was no man" [Adam.])
Who is Satan? If he is an angel that sinned, then he's locked up.
It was Jesus' HUMAN nature that need to be tested before God.
jeremiah1five
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No, joyful.
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Jn 14:15–18.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. Jn 16:13–15.
All the above is true and in accordance with the above I have experienced the same.
jeremiah1five
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Those that deny the Life of Christ in His people are antichrist.
Red Baker
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Sir, do you understand the meaning~"Father of"? flesh is not the father of all evil, the Devil is!
John 8: 44~"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and THE FATHER OF IT."
Sir, there are two generation of people in this world, each has a father~the righteous generation of Jesus Christ and the generation of the wicked whose father is the Devil, which generation Cain was part of.
1st John 3:12~"Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous." Sir, the scriptures do not say that Cain was THE wicked one, but was OF that wicked one. There was rebellion before sin entered into this world, among part of the angelic host/spirits that were created by God. More on this later, maybe in another post.
I will not go into this doctrine now, but later~The Angel of the Lord is not the second person of the Trinity~There is no such thing as the first, second and third person of the Godhead~there's one God manifested as three only according to their respective work in the redemption of God's elect. Jesus Christ is God, PERIOD. Jesus was a complex person~fully man, fully God and these two natures never interacted with each other in the redemption of God's elect.
Jesus Christ according to the scriptures is the everlasting Father of all things~the mighty God.
Isaiah 9:6~"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
He was indeed a child born, yet he was before all things and by him all things were created as the mighty God. Later...
Jesus rebuked Satan for putting unscriptural thoughts into Peter's mind, which the Devil can do.
Actually, the truth is, it is what God' calls the adversary of our souls~and yes Christian have believe this since the beginning, except for the sect of the Sadducees. Acts 23:8~"For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both." Sir, that's not good company to keep, yet you are right there among them shouting amen, amen.
I explained that above, your error is that you do not give the scriptures their proper sense, thereby leaving you in darkness concerning its truths. But, while we are on thsi point, let me ask you this question, pray to tell me~"who are the angels that sinned and were cast into hell and delivered into chain of darkness there waiting to be judged?" You should go back and address by points and prove them wrong if you think you can, which I know you cannot.
Sir, to say you are confused would be a major understatement! You are under a certain amount of those chains of darkness by rejecting God word.
Both angels and man were created in the image of God~that image consist of holiness, knowledge and understanding. We know that by understanding what sense believers are recreated in the image of Jesus Christ, per Ephesians 4:24; Colossians 3:10; etc.
Your statement is borderline of blasphemy. But, what do you expect when folks are just reviving the doctrines of the Sadducees? Do you know that of all sects in the NT, we never see ONE Sadducees converted to the truth, many Pharisees, not ONE Sadducees. Something to think about.
Again, you take scriptures and misuse them. He does not give the glory that belongs to him to another, BUT, he did create both angels and man in his OWN IMAGE which we explained above. His election preserved some angels, others were left to themselves FOREVER! God did not make them immutable, that attribute cannot be given to another.
I just basically address this~and warned you that this is borderline blasphemy.
Again, Adam was NOT created a sinner, or with a sinful nature~he was created after God's image per the testimony of God himself. What God did not do for the first Adam was he did not SECURE HIM FROM FALLING, which is what he does for his seed under the New Covenant through the work of redemption by Christ our surety. The first covenant was base on WORKS OF THE FLESH, which Adam proved he could not fulfilled without sinning. Under the New Covenant, ( which is all of grace without works of the flesh on our part )Jesus Christ came in the "likeness of sinful flesh" and fulfilled what Adam could NOT do!
I'm stopping keep from this being too long and will come back and finish the Lord willing.
jeremiah1five
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Adam is the father of all flesh.
All flesh is sinful.
We live in this body of this death.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Rom. 7:24.
Being the father of something or someone gives them the right to name a child or an invention:
20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents, and of such as have cattle. 21 And his brother’s name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and organ. Gen. 4:19–21.
Steve Jobs was the father of the iPhone. He had the right to name his invention whatever he will.
Then there is the father of a son or daughter.
I understand that. But the two groups of people are the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent.
Rebellion against God is sin. Sin came from the angels that sinned. Sin came from Adam. Neither were holy for sin does not come from holy. Thus, their creation was fallen short of the glory of God (or the glory that is God.) Sin comes from sinner. And neither angel or man was created holy.
Sabellianism.
Agreed.
No, Jesus called Peter the person "Satan." There is nothing that says "thoughts were put in his mind." The thoughts that came from Peter was from Peter. He leaned upon his own understanding in the vanity of HIS mind, not Satan or the devil or any angel that sinned.
Pharisees reject the existence of angels as they reject the existence of resurrection.
I accept the existence of both but the angels that sinned are cast down to hell delivered in chains of darkness to await final judgment. There are no fallen angels, Lucifer/Satan/Devil loose on the planet. They are all locked up to await judgment.
The Holy Spirit is clear:
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; 2 Pet. 2:4.
Now, before you go into the false teaching that Lucifer is Satan and the devil you first have to challenge the Holy Spirit that says the angels that sinned - which is ALL of them - are locked up. Get past this passage and then we'll talk about who is Satan and devil and their actions on the planet.
Then if they were created holy then God gave/shared/reduplicated/copied/ His Nature and Deific Attributes in them. If so, they should have not sinned. Sin does not come from holy.
Let me ask you something since you believe holy creatures can sin. God is Holy. How long before God sin since you hold that sin comes from holy?
Disagree. I hold to Scripture against your statement and position:
7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith. Acts 6:7.
A "great company."
Where does it say angels were created in God's own image?
And the image of God in man is not Adam but Christ. We are not being conformed as believers into the image of Adam but of Christ.
The image of God is not sinful man. The image of God is Christ. God looked forward to the "new man" in Christ when He ordained His image in believers through the Holy Spirit. There is no better image of a Father than a Son. And we are being conformed into the image of the Son who is Jesus Christ.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. Rom. 7:7.
The Law shows/reveals that men are sinners. The existence of "Thou shalt not covet" showed that Paul was a sinner who lusted. Adam could say the same thing using a different law:
ADAM: "I had not known sin but by the command. For I had not known disobedience except the command say' Thou shalt not [eat of it.]"
The only image of God in Adam was that he was created trichotomy: body, soul, and human spirit.
Because Adam was created sinful it was evident he would sin and that was the plan of God. The Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil god used to give Adam the KNOWLEDGE of his sinfulness. It didn't make him sinful. There was no poison in the fruit. There was no metamorphosis or change in Adam from holy to sinful because that which is holy remains holy. The second Adam proved this.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 1 Cor. 15:42–49.
The first man is of the earth, earthy, and the earth was not created holy, nor did God give His glory to an earthy man. His glory is possessed of the heavenly and the heavenly is the Lord from heaven.
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