Sanctification

[Eleanor]

I believe election, justification, regeneration, being born again are monergistic. However, it seems sometimes justification is confused with sanctification,

Good observation.
The imputed righteousness of justification (Ro 4:1-11) is forensic righteousness.
The acquired righteousness of sanctification (Ro 6:16-19) is actual righteousness.

which is what the Roman Catholics have. I honestly would like to believe in total monergism with regard to sanctification but at this stage in my life it doesn't seem to be actually occurring that way. I'm just speaking with regard to my addictions.

 

[Eleanor]

I can only speak for myself here but when I was saved I experienced the Trinity in a way. There was the Holy Spirit acting to illuminate the words of scripture, followed by a vision of the cross, and then the Presence of the Father. So, though I can only really point to my personal experience there, I do know there is a Trinity. Hence, the nature of Christ being human and Divine at the same time doesn't present any problems for me.

Nor for me, since the word of God says so (Jn 1:1).

 

[Eleanor]

I hope I didn't mention personal experience, I just stated that I had genuine faith unto Salvation.

I don't believe God deals with people in different ways at salvation, except for some of the content people might experience at that time. Most of the markers of being saved that are shared by all are obvious, like love for the Word, fellowship with other believers, wanting to tell others etc.

That's "deals in different ways, but with the same results."

My litmus test for rebirth has always been hunger and thirst for the word of God as the new babe craves milk.
It is most consistent among them.

 

[Eleanor]

Do you like RC Sproul? I wonder what he would say in response to the idea that experience of God is nullified because the Word of God is more reliable.

Subjective experience needs an objective measure, of which the word of God is the only judge.

 

[Eleanor]

Not at all. I know my type. It doesn't take much for one ass to recognize another. Being cognizant of this fact and attempting to mediate it for the sake of those who interact with us is a different story.

I will however, considering our recent interactions, admit to more certainty that you are a human.

Yep, your knowledge is incomplete.

 

[makesends]

My first response in support of Monergism, is that the Definition of Grace is Unmerited Favor. When a Christian agrees they are Saved by Grace, they should believe that Unmerited Favor is Monergistic. How can Unmerited Favor be Synergistic?? I say that anything which can be said is 'of' Grace, is Monergistic; because Grace is Unmerited Favor, not Merited Favor...

For instance; Election is "of" Grace; therefore it is a Doctrine of Grace. Since Election is a Doctrine of Grace, Election is Unmerited Favor...

Right?

Right.

Like your new avatar, btw.

 

[makesends]

Oh indeed. The Bible is full of sin.

It's a shame to have to post that I'll pretend I didn't read that!

 

[makesends]

Do you like RC Sproul? I wonder what he would say in response to the idea that experience of God is nullified because the Word of God is more reliable.

"Is nullified?" That isn't what I said, (nor implied), though it is, I suppose, an apt question. Yes, I like RC Sproul (Senior) very much. But I don't see the fact that the Word of God is more reliable than the personal perception of experience, to be a matter of nullifying the personal perception. In fact, "in my experience" (ha,ha), the fact that the Word of God is more reliable enhances and sharpens the focus of the perception, and brings to mind other perceptions, of whatever I am experiencing.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

It's a shame to have to post that I'll pretend I didn't read that!

Well it is. Starting with Adam and Eve.

 

[makesends]

I think it depends upon how impatient you are.

I watched one laid back debate where James White was so incredibly laid back and patient that I grew very frustrated. I detest Molinism, just about as badly as Open Theism. At one point White seemed more genuinely puzzled than frustrated: "How can you not see this??"

 

[justbyfaith]

I'm glad we have a good crowd of reformed here. And if not reformed, also very knowledgeable.

My question is, is Sanctification Monergoistic or Synergistic?
Can you support your view with scripture?

I'm not presenting this as a debate. Just looking to learn and get sharpened.
Proverbs 27:17 As iron sharpens iron,
So one person sharpens another.


Personally, I believe Sanctification is Monergistic. For now, I'll just give John 17:15, 17 I am not asking You to take them out of the world, but to keep them away from the evil one. Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.

I think that I must be out of the loop...

I don't know what Monergistic is,

And I don't know what Synergistic is.

 

[Carbon]

I think that I must be out of the loop...

I don't know what Monergistic is,

And I don't know what Synergistic is.

You're missing out on so much.

 

[justbyfaith]

You're missing out on so much.

If someone can define the terms, I would love to join in on the conversation.

 

[Carbon]

If someone can define the terms, I would love to join in on the conversation.

Monergism vs. Synergism by John Hendryx

Monergism Vs. Synergism | Monergism

"And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live...Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." -

www.monergism.com

In case your wondering. I'm a monergist.

 

[justbyfaith]

Monergism vs. Synergism by John Hendryx

Monergism Vs. Synergism | Monergism

"And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live...Then you shall know that I am the LORD; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the LORD." -

www.monergism.com

In case your wondering. I'm a monergist.

I read through enough of the article to be able to understand the terms.

I would offer to you the following sermons.

Sinners Bound to Change Their Own Hearts by Charles G. Finney

HOW TO CHANGE YOUR HEART by Charles G. Finney

More where that came from:

Complete INDEX OF SERMONS AND LECTURES by Charles G. Finney

 

[justbyfaith]

In understanding John 1:13, it is important that we do so without denying the reality of John 1:12.

Jhn 1:12, But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13, Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

We are clearly not born of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man;

However, the preceding verse tells us that there is a condition to receiving power to become a child of God: that we receive Christ.

Romans 10:9-13 teaches us that we do something in order to obtain salvation.

Now, one may argue, that faith is a fruit of the Spirit and that therefore one must be regenerated (receive the Spirit) before he can have a genuine faith.

I would argue that initial faith is not a fruit of the Spirit; for we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand.

Since we cannot stand in grace apart from faith, and receiving the Spirit is the result of grace, it follows that we do not have the Spirit before entering into faith. We have access by faith into grace, and thus our receiving of the Holy Spirit.

But I would say that the monergistic idea that faith is a fruit of the Spirit does not mean that we don't receive the Spirit by making a decision.

The Holy Ghost is promised to those who will repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins.

So, if faith is the result of being regenerated, it follows that a person is not saved until they receive the Holy Ghost through baptism in Jesus' Name (Acts 2:38-39) or through asking, seeking, and knocking to the Lord for the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 11:9-13).

They do not have a saving faith until after they have received the Holy Ghost.

And yet if you ask, seek, and knock to receive the Holy Ghost, God will give Him to you.

But do you not need faith for the asking?

If I cannot have faith apart from already having the Holy Ghost, then if I am asking, I already have the Holy Ghost; and therefore I do not need to ask for Him.

But if I do not have faith and yet I respond to a call to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins, will I not receive the Holy Ghost as the result of fulfilling the condition of this conditional promise as it is laid forth in Acts 2:38-39? Thus, the next step is to develop saving faith as a fruit of the Spirit.

Nevertheless, baptism in itself does not save apart from "faith in the operation of God" (Colossians 2:12).

So we are back to the concept that initial faith is needed to gain access to grace in order that we might receive the Holy Spirit.

Thoughts? Comments?

 

[ReverendRV]

I think that I must be out of the loop...

I don't know what Monergistic is,

And I don't know what Synergistic is.

Monergism versus Synergism ~ by ReverendRV * July 15

Ephesians 2:8 NASB; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

Monergism is a Work which is said to be of God alone, and Synergism is said to be the cooperation of God and Man in a Work. Synergism is like pulling up to the gas station, looking at the pump and seeing “May contain %10 Ethanol”; two fuels working in an engine to reduce emissions. But engines like Lawn Mowers can’t use this Synergistic fuel, so you pull up to the next pump and see “Ethanol free”; and you fill your gas can. ~ It’s like this when it comes to God’s Covenants; a Covenant of Works is Synergistic but a Covenant of Grace is Monergistic. In the Bible we see the Edenic and Mosaic Covenants are Covenants of Works which require the participation of those who are in these Covenants. Other Covenants such as the Noahic, Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants are Covenants of Grace; these are promises made by God that don’t require any participation from those who are in those Covenants. ~ Which Pump do you use?

God is not the Author of Sin. ~ Have you ever told a Lie? What do you call people that Lie? “Of yourself”, you are now a Liar. Have you ever Stolen anything? What do you call people who Steal? You’ve made yourself out to be a Thief. Have you ever used God’s name as a vile cussword? This is Blasphemy and is not of God, but is ‘of’ yourself. These are only three of the Ten Commandments; if God judged you by his Moral Code, would you be innocent or Guilty? “No! My good outweighs my bad.” ~ Are you saying to me that you want to Synergistically mix your good with your bad?? Now your fuel is tainted because your good doesn’t lower the Bad’s emissions! Would you go to Heaven or to Hell? Doesn’t this bother you??

You don’t have to go, because there’s a Loophole; but it is not of yourself. ~ For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting Life! Jesus Christ is this Son and he lived a Life of Sinlessness. This means that he kept the requirements of the Mosaic Covenant and this became his Righteousness; it qualified him to be the sacrifice for the Sin of the world. He was Tried by a kangaroo court and sentenced to scourging by Roman Lictors. This would lead him to die quickly on the Cross because of the blood he had already spilled on our behalf. He died, was buried but in three days he arose from the dead, being seen alive by over five hundred people before he ascended to Heaven. We’re Monergistically Saved by Grace through Faith in the Resurrected Savior Jesus Christ, without Works so that it’s not of ourselves but is the gift of God. Repent of your Sins, Confess Jesus Christ as Lord; and seek an Evangelical Church. ~ Jesus is %100 God and %100 Man. As a man, Jesus Synergistically kept the Mosaic Covenant, and we Monergistically receive what he earned…

Romans 1:17 NIV; For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed--a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

 

[David1701]

Y'all are going to drive me nuts. It's "monergistic". I suppose it could also be capitalized but synergistic isn't so...

I'm also of the opinion that sanctification is monergistic. But this also calls for deeper consideration. Certainly we are set aside by God for His own use ( this sanctification like the utensils in the temple ). Certainly we are told that we are being sanctified by scripture. But we are also told "Put to death" our old behaviors ( Colossians 3:5-11 ). But is that sanctification? Or something else worth delving into? I think there is some considerable confusion between sanctification and mortification.

Thoughts?

Even if mortifying the deeds of the body is a kind of sanctification (and it is), the command to do it does not imply the ability to do it, other than by God working it in us. After all, it is by the Holy Spirit (working in us to will and do of God's good pleasure) that the mortification happens.

The commands tell us what to ask God to work in us and through us.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Even if mortifying the deeds of the body is a kind of sanctification (and it is), the command to do it does not imply the ability to do it, other than by God working it in us. After all, it is by the Holy Spirit (working in us to will and do of God's good pleasure) that the mortification happens.

The commands tell us what to ask God to work in us and through us.

Eh...I think that's two different things but I'll let it pass. And the *desire* to live a loving and Godly life is definitely a God given gift but the doing of it certainly involves my "hands" as well. In the end it may simply be perception.

Now I hope that everyone here understands that I'm not talking salvific work here? Also that the distinction is made by certain luminaries smarter than I. So there must be something there to talk about?

 

[ReverendRV]

Eh...I think that's two different things but I'll let it pass. And the *desire* to live a loving and Godly life is definitely a God given gift but the doing of it certainly involves my "hands" as well. In the end it may simply be perception.

Now I hope that everyone here understands that I'm not talking salvific work here? Also that the distinction is made by certain luminaries smarter than I. So there must be something there to talk about?

There is something to talk about...

RC Sproul said that Sanctification is Synergistic. Since Mortification is kind of Sanctification (and it is); perhaps Mortification is the Sanctification Sproul is referring to?

It seems there is now an uneasy agreement between you and David. I think y'all agree...