Salvation and sanctification is now complete in Christ: Consecration then follows

[Ghada]

Those words came out of you, not me. Do you just like to be furious and damn people or what? You have to make up such atrocious lies so you can do so?

I must apologize to you and publicly. I was gone for a while and found myself noticed with bad behavior and false accusation against you.

I searched to see why, and I found this.

You and the moderators and some others coming to your defence are correct. I should never have gone on to rebuke your words so shaprly, only by imputed guilt of what a few others have taught elsewhere.

I should have left you to clarify. I apologize and am endeavoring not to do it again to you, nor anyone else.

Pro 9:9Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

I'll keep engaging all your points to catch up, so long as you keep replying to me. If you see I am even appearing to do the same thing again, please tell me quickly, so I can see how I get on the track. Repentance is taking out the root, not just clipping away at the edges.

 

[Arial]

I must apologize to you and publicly. I was gone for a while and found myself noticed with bad behavior and false accusation against you.

I searched to see why, and I found this.

You and the moderators and some others coming to your defence are correct. I should never have gone on to rebuke your words so shaprly, only by imputed guilt of what a few others have taught elsewhere.

I should have left you to clarify. I apologize and am endeavoring not to do it again to you, nor anyone else.

Pro 9:9Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

I'll keep engaging all your points to catch up, so long as you keep replying to me. If you see I am even appearing to do the same thing again, please tell me quickly, so I can see how I get on the track. Repentance is taking out the root, not just clipping away at the edges.

Ghada,

I commend you for the above post. I don't know of anyone who has ever been so gracious in an apology. We all bring baggage to the table I suppose, from time to time. I know I have. I know when I first came to forums several years ago, I was attacked brutally just for being Reformed. I began responding in the same way that I was being treated.And I suffered in my soul greatly for it.

But as Scripture says, all things work for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose. I knew I should never treat anyone the way I treated some, even if I was being treated that way by them. And yet retaliation drove me. I took this before God, again and again, asking for forgiveness. But even more than that, that He would sanctify me in that area. That I would not even have that in me. I knew he found some of what I said and did an abomination for a child of His. And it is not an overnight thing. But slowly, slowly the inclination to give vent to my fleshly desires in that area of "taming the tongue" or to even have them, is being put to death. Just like many others already have been. So, though I am deeply ashamed of some of the things I did and said years ago, I am grateful for the growth in righteousness, for the glory of God, not me, that has come, and is coming through it.

It is good to see you on that same upward track. Able to recognize when you have offended God and wounded a fellow citizen, and have remorse, and a desire to do better. So many, many, never recognize or acknowledge when they have done wrong. And as long as that is the case, they cannot grow in the Lord in that area.

 

[Arial]

God already imputed trespass and guilt to man on earth, beginning with Adam.

You say that and when I say the same thing:

All men were accounted guilty in Adam and all men are also guilty by their own sins

You say:

The former false without Scripture, the latter true by Scripture.

This makes it extremely difficult to actually get at what you are saying, and what it is you believe. But I think you have a misunderstanding of what it means when the Bible says Adam's sin is imputed to all mankind. You seem to be using imputed to mean accusing someone of something they have not done. And there is a sense where that is the case, but that is not the case theologically.

Adam, as the first man represented all humanity that would come through him. So when Adam sinned against a holy God, he became a sinner. That is why he was not allowed to stay in the Garden of Eden where he and Eve had personal fellowship with God, and so he could not have access to the tree of life and not die. The penalty for sin is death. A natural death, and a spiritual death because he lost fellowship with Life, with God. He became an enemy of God, and he regarded God his enemy. They tried to hide from Him!

Since Adam was now a sinner the entire human race is a sinful being. That is the imputation of Adam's sin to us. Since we are a sinful being, we too sin in actuality.

In Romans (and and a few other places)we learn that Jesus is called the second Adam. That is because He came to undo what Adam did. In other words, to make us not sinners, so God can again dwell among us and we can have eternal life. When He returns, those who have placed their faith in Him and His work on the cross and in life, and have already died, will be bodily resurrected, as He was. They were buried perishable and will be raised imperishable, just as Christ was. And those who are alive when He returns will be changed in the twinkling of an eye. (1 Cor 15:35-52)

Christ is the second Adam because He stands as the representative of all who are in Him through faith, as Adam stood as representative for all born in him.

So what it means for our sins to be imputed to Him on the cross, is not that He actually became a sinner. If He did He would disqualify as the Redeemer. It means that He took upon Himself the punishment that we deserve. He did this because our sins had to be paid for, and not only our personal sins, but the fact of the imputed sin we have from Adam. IOW in order for sin to have no power to condemn those Christ died in the place of, and eventually, in the fullness of time be banished from existence altogether, it had to be conquered and rendered powerless. And this Jesus did when He rose from the grave. He could do this because He had done nothing deserving death. He had no sin in Him.

I have to sign off for the night but I will get back to your posts tomorrow.

 

[Ghada]

I think @Ghada is conflating mere law, or rather, the breaking of it, with sin.

1Jo 3:4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Outwardly transgressing the law merely judges the transgressor is already condemned. It merely proves that the heart is already corrupt by lust of the world.

Mat 5:28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

The law of God is first spirital and good to judge lust within the heart, and not just works of the flesh:

Rom 7:7What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Rom 7:12Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

Rom 7:14For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Ghada discounts 'original sin' in the unbelievey

The origin of sin is lusting from the heart. Committing works of iniquity begins in the hearts of angels and men.

Gen 3:6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Only by first lusting with the heart against God, does the soul sin with the flesh and transgress His law.

Jas 1:14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Outward transgression of the law is only by inward transgression of the spirit. Therefore, outward transgression only proves inward corruption of the soul.

Rebellion against God is first in the heart by lust. Outward rebellion merely proves it to the world.

, and accounts mere failure to comply with the law,

Mere transgression of the law of Christ, is the proof of death to God.

Isa 59:2But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

Lusting from the heart against God, is the true beginning of all evil works of angels and men against His law.

Isa 14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

as what needs to be changed.

Therefore, what needs to be changed first is the soul delievered from it's own lust.

2Pe 1:3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue.

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

The mere changing of works of the flesh, is earthy religion with lust of the world. The pure religion of Jesus Christ is the kingdom of God within, and His good will done on earth as it is in heaven.

Luk 17:21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Mark{1:14} Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Therefore, the gospel of Jesus Christ is that any man, first the Jew and also the Gentile, can now repent to change our mere outward works for His name's sake, and the Spirit of Christ will change our hearts from old lust to His new divine nature.

Outward transgression by unrepentance on our part, is mere proof of continued inward degeneracy, untaken away by the Spirit.

Deu 10:16Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Rom 2:28
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

He is neither a Jew nor a Christian that merely keeps the law outwardly, but he is a son of God that keeps the heart pure from lust and sin of the world:

Mat 23:26Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

2Co 7:1Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Mere keeping of the outward works of the law, can appear righteous. But transgression of the law not only proves outward unrighteousness, but also inward lust and sin.

1 Thess{5:22} Abstain from all appearance of evil. {5:23} And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. {5:24} Faithful [is] he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Any man can keep the law outwardly by power of their own faith and will alone, without circumcising lust from the heart. But no man can transgress with the flesh, and have a pure heart circumcised by Christ.

Both outward and inward works must change by repentance of all transgressions for Jesus' sake. We do our part outwardly, and He does His part inwardly. And though our part may merely be repenting of our outward works, it is commanded necessary for Jesus to do His work within:

Ezek 18:31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Mere outward change is not enough to be justified with Christ. But outward transgressions has no justification with Christ at all.

Gal 2:17But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found transgressors, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

No notion of the death in which the unregenerate walk about the planet.

The death and darkness of the unrighteous, begins with their own lust for the world of sin and iniquity.

1Jo 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

The carnal mind of transgressors have no notion of inward death by lust of the heart. The decieved mind of transgressors have no notion, that inward purity is impossible with outward transgressions of the law.

The risen victorious Christ does not accept from His enemies, first the Jew and also the Gentile, anything less than wholehearted unconditional surrender to Himself. Therefore, without whole repentance from the heart, the veil of lust remains untaken away by circumcision of Christ.

 

[Ghada]

Ghada,

I commend you for the above post. I don't know of anyone who has ever been so gracious in an apology. We all bring baggage to the table I suppose, from time to time. I know I have. I know when I first came to forums several years ago, I was attacked brutally just for being Reformed. I began responding in the same way that I was being treated.And I suffered in my soul greatly for it.

But as Scripture says, all things work for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose. I knew I should never treat anyone the way I treated some, even if I was being treated that way by them. And yet retaliation drove me. I took this before God, again and again, asking for forgiveness. But even more than that, that He would sanctify me in that area. That I would not even have that in me. I knew he found some of what I said and did an abomination for a child of His. And it is not an overnight thing. But slowly, slowly the inclination to give vent to my fleshly desires in that area of "taming the tongue" or to even have them, is being put to death. Just like many others already have been. So, though I am deeply ashamed of some of the things I did and said years ago, I am grateful for the growth in righteousness, for the glory of God, not me, that has come, and is coming through it.

It is good to see you on that same upward track. Able to recognize when you have offended God and wounded a fellow citizen, and have remorse, and a desire to do better. So many, many, never recognize or acknowledge when they have done wrong. And as long as that is the case, they cannot grow in the Lord in that area.

Gracious forgiveness accepted. Thank you.

 

[Ghada]

But I think you have a misunderstanding of what it means when the Bible says Adam's sin is imputed to all mankind.

The difficulty is not the teaching of Adam's own person transgression being imputed to others, which I completely understand and once agreed with. The difficulty is having the Bible say what the Bible never says.

When I was challenged to show any Scripture saying so, I went to the Scripture traditionally quoted as saying so. And it does not.

Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The Scripture only says that death passes upon all that sin. Not sin passes upon all by birth.

Sin is only upon the soul that is sinning, and so the death to God by sin passes only upon the soul that sins.

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

God rebukes any accusation of Him imputing any sin of one soul, to that of another, that has not committed the sin. Not any more than He imputes the sins of the parents to their children, without committing the same sins.

Isa 44:2Thus saith the LORD that made thee, and formed thee from the womb, which will help thee; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and thou, Jesurun, whom I have chosen.

No sin and trespass is passed on the soul of any babe in the womb, and certainly not to any natural body shaped by Christ.

1Pe 1:24For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

As with the grass of the field, so is the flesh of man and beast: It all naturally passes away, not by sin, but by natural creation by Christ

The death of the body passes upon all naturally made creatures on earth, by Christ making all flesh and blood on earth naturally mortal. Including the natural body prepared by the Spirit, for the Word from heaven made flesh and blood of all men.

As with the teaching of God imputing sin to His Son on the cross, so is the teaching that God imputes the sin of the parents unto the children.

when the Bible says Adam's sin is imputed to all mankind.

The bible does not say so. There are only certain Scriptures traditionally used to say so. And though they are quoted as the only possible reading, they certainly are not.

2Pe 1:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

This is the error of imputing one's own personal faith and will into Scripture, in order to teach it as Scripture, and say "when the Bible says...".

When the Bible does not say, but only the faith and will of a reader says it.

 

[Ghada]

You seem to be using imputed to mean accusing someone of something they have not done.

Not me. Imputing is something to someone that has done it, whether good or evil. It's judgment of the soul by works.

Mat 12:33Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

False imputing is something they have not done. God never falsely imputes anything to anyone, including His own Son and Himself.

Isa 53:4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Only the wicked and the ignorant imputed sin to the Son on the cross. And they added insult to injury by falsely esteeming God the One smiting Him.

Rom 11:32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

The prophecy reveals that their false esteem of the Son and accusation against God, proves their hearts of unbeliff in God the Son and His innocence with the Father.

Isa 53:4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

There are a couple certain problems in using this prophecy of Scripture, to teach that God imputed His Son with sins on the cross. And did so without imputing His soul with sin.

1. It wants to make His sin bearing to be God imputing Him with sin. But since His sin bearing in Scripture is only by His body, and not His soul, then imputation of God is only to the body of a person, and not their soul.

Therefore, imputation of righteousness by God, is only to the body, not the soul. If Jesus' sin bearing in His body, is the imputation of sin by God, then the righteousness bearing imputed by God, is aslo in the body, not the soul.

2. If the sin bearing of Jesus is imputed by God, then so is the esteeming of Jesus smitten of God. The prophecy proves that being imputed sin by God, is to be esteemed smitten by God.

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

God never imputes sin to the body, but only the soul. And God never imputed sin to His Son and smote Him.

Exo 23:7Keep thee far from a false matter; and the innocent and righteous slay thou not: for I will not justify the wicked.

Deu 19:10That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.

He was not imputed by God with sin, nor smitten by God for guilt. The Son's innocent blood was only shed by them falsley imputing Him with sin of blasphemy. His blood was not only on the hands of them that laid their spitting, blows, stripes, and crucifixtion upon His body, but also on all them at the cross believing in their hearts, that He was indeed smitten of God according to the curse of the law.

He hath born 'our' sins and griefs and sorrows, reveals not only their's at the cross, but all them that have sinned against Christ,. All men that sin is not only to the death of their own soul, but also to the slaying of the Son Himself.

Heb 6:5If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The Scripture is not only for them that once repented for Jesus' sake, and turned back to sinning against Him. It is for all sinners that sin against Him, whether believing the true record or not.

 

[Arial]

Not me. Imputing is something to someone that has done it, whether good or evil. It's judgment of the soul by works.

No it isn't that either. Not in the way it is used in the Bible or in the Christian doctrine of imputation. And that is what matters in this discussion as that is what is what is being discussed. I am just trying to clarify the usage in the doctrine so we are not talking two different things.

The imputation of of Adam's sin to all mankind, is by what is named in theology Federal Headship. It is an old term, so that needs to be clarified to. I did so in the the post you are responding to, so I will read the rest of your post before I go farther.

Federal headship defined: Tefers to a relationship in which an individual represents a larger group and the actions of the representative are imputed onto the larger group. This is what Paul is presenting in Romans 5:12-21.

It is not a judgement of the soul by works.

Only the wicked and the ignorant imputed sin to the Son on the cross. And they added insult to injury by falsely esteeming God the One smiting Him.

Using the above definition of imputation and federal headship(those I gave that are in the doctrines of traditional Christianity);

It was not wicked men who were imputing sin to the Son on the cross. It was God. (Is 53) And they are not the ones who esteemed God as the one smiting Him. (Is 53 tells us it was God.) This imputation by God was not declaring Jesus as sinful. And it does not mean that God enjoyed the death of His Son on the cross.

Jesus was standing as the federal head of all who would believe in Him, just as Adam did for all natural born men. It pleased God to do this because of what the Son was accomplishing in His obedience---both in life and in death.

And what was He accomplishing? He was breaking the curse that sin had placed on mankind, and its penalty, death. He was giving His own body and shed blood (the blood of the covenant) to make satisfaction (pay the debt) that sin owed, and that we owe as sinners. In doing this He was reconciling man with God, and God to man.

By rising from the dead and ascending back to the Father, He showed that this substitutionary death on the cross (His death in place of their death just as we see shadowed in the OT animal sacrifices)was accepted. The debt we owe was cleared off the books.

The prophecy reveals that their false esteem of the Son and accusation against God, proves their hearts of unbeliff in God the Son and His innocence with the Father.

They made accusations against Christ because they did not believe He was who He said He was. The Messiah they had been waiting for It is those who do not believe that Jesus purchased a people for God with His blood by paying their debt that are in unbelief. 1 Peter 1:17-21 And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one's deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile, knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold, but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory so that your faith and hope are in God.

God sent the Son to die on the cross, Jesus willingly came, and willingly went to the cross, in order to reconcile all things to God.

1. It wants to make His sin bearing to be God imputing Him with sin. But since His sin bearing in Scripture is only by His body, and not His soul, then imputation of God is only to the body of a person, and not their soul.

The soul and body are the person. They were not separated on the cross. Your incorrect understanding of imputation is what is throwing you off and creating this speculation that cannot be verified in Scripture. Christ died the death of a sinner, and the death meted out to the worst sinners, even though He had no sins of His OWN. He died to make recompense for our sins.

Therefore, imputation of righteousness by God, is only to the body, not the soul. If Jesus' sin bearing in His body, is the imputation of sin by God, then the righteousness bearing imputed by God, is aslo in the body, not the soul.

Our justification is a judicial declaration. God as judge bangs the hammer justice and declares the one who is justified through faith in the work of Jesus , "Not Guilty." The imputation of Christ's righteousness to the believer is what makes that judicial declaration possible. It has nothing to do with the soul or the body. It is who we become in Christ. In this age---the one we live in all the days to come---the believer is sealed in Christ by the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit indwells them. Nothing can change that. (Romans 8) This is for Christ's glory, not ours. In the age to come Rev 21, when Christ returns, the dead will be raised truly righteous, and those who remain alive at His return will be made uncorrupted, incorruptible, imperishable. Made truly and perfectly righteous, just like when Adam and Eve were created, before they took that tumble into darkness. Out of Adam we will be, and in Christ. Right now we are still in Adam in the natural but have also been reborn in Christ, (John 3).

2. If the sin bearing of Jesus is imputed by God, then so is the esteeming of Jesus smitten of God. The prophecy proves that being imputed sin by God, is to be esteemed smitten by God.

No it doesn't. We aren't Jesus. And that is not logical.

 

[Arial]

Rom 5:12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

The Scripture only says that death passes upon all that sin. Not sin passes upon all by birth.

It says that sin entered the world through Adam, and death by sin, and because of that all men sinned, therefore all men die. Keep reading. 15-19 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if man died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded form many. And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification. For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

1 Cor 15:47-49 The first man was from Earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.

Sin is only upon the soul that is sinning, and so the death to God by sin passes only upon the soul that sins.

Don't confuse the issue by making a distinction where there is none. Man is not a soul that life's in a body. Man is a body and a soul. And all men sin. We sin because that is what we are in our father Adam---sinners.

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Soul is being used as a way of saying the person who sins A soul does not sin apart from the person.

God never imputes sin to the body, but only the soul. And God never imputed sin to His Son and smote Him.

That is backwards gnosticism. The body and soul are the person. Both are created by God as the person. By the biblical definition of impute as given in another post, #168 as opposed to how you are defining it in your arguments against the doctrine, yes He did impute our sins to Jesus on the cross. If you are going to continue to argue your position against the Christian position, using your definition of terms instead of theirs, we will get no where but in a circle. Your interpretation is not the doctrinal interpretation, so every time you use it, you are using a straw man fallacy. I won't keep doing that. P.S. I just realized you had not read 168 when you posted the post I am responding to. So if what I said was out of line because you had not read the definitions post---I apologize.

The bible does not say so. There are only certain Scriptures traditionally used to say so. And though they are quoted as the only possible reading, they certainly are not.

They are not the only possible reading but they are the only right one. There is a right one, and there can only be one right one, and the entirety of Scripture in its historical outworking of redemption supports the one you reject.

2Pe 1:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

This is the error of imputing one's own personal faith and will into Scripture, in order to teach it as Scripture, and say "when the Bible says...".

Which is exactly what you are doing.

 

[Ghada]

No it isn't that either. Not in the way it is used in the Bible or in the Christian doctrine of imputation.

There is no 'or' for me.

And that is what matters in this discussion as that is what is what is being discussed. I am just trying to clarify the usage in the doctrine so we are not talking two different things.

We will continue to talk differently, so long as anyone believes God imputes something to someone, but not their soul.

God is Spirit and only imputes to souls, not to bodies.

Bible imputing by God is a medical diagnoses of the soul:

Mar 2:17When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The imputation of of Adam's sin to all mankind, is by what is named in theology Federal Headship.

Which God rebukes as imputing the sins of the parent to the child from the womb.

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son:

Jesus rebuked His own disicplels for believing the old lie of being born with sin of the parents. The unbelieving Jews accused a new disicple of Jesus as being born altogether in sin, in order to dismiss his true testimony of Jesus Christ.

Federal headship defined: Tefers to a relationship in which an individual represents a larger group and the actions of the representative are imputed onto the larger group. This is what Paul is presenting in Romans 5:12-21.

Which is not the sin of the parent imputed to the child from the womb.

What you speak of is true guilt by common deeds, not only by associtation.

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die...the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

At the cross of Jesus' death, that federal headship is imputed to all men by common deeds: Sinning against Christ.

It was not wicked men who were imputing sin to the Son on the cross. It was God. (Is 53)

It was wicked men imputing Him with blasphemy, not God.

It was God. (Is 53)

Isa 53:4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

And it was wicked and ignorant men imputing Him smitten by God, not God.

The only record of imputing and esteeming any sin to Jesus Christ, with death at the hands of God, is only the wicked and ignorant sinners, not God.

And they are not the ones who esteemed God as the one smiting Him. (Is 53 tells us it was God.

yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

I can't do standard grammar and comprehension for others.

just as Adam did for all natural born men.

Adam didn't sin for anyone but himself.

Jesus was standing as the federal head of all who would believe in Him,

By the definition of such Headship, He is only Head of them that do as He does. Which is true.

1 John{2:29} If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Believing in Him without doing as Him, is no better than devils that also believe and repent not.

Only believing Jesus is the righteous Lord, does not make anyone righteous as He.

1 John{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous

And what was He accomplishing? He was breaking the curse that sin had placed on mankind, and its penalty, death.

By first making all sinners cursed for the shedding of the innocent blood of God's own dear Son on a cursed cross. And also by making any and all sinning exceeding cursed and sinful toward all sinners.

By His life He overcame all sinning, but only by His resurrection did He conquer death. Only by acknowledging cursed guilt in His death and repent for His sake, does He likewise make the soul to overcome all sinning as He, and then be rewarded with conquering death in the likeness of His resurrection.

He showed that this substitutionary death on the cross

No man's unrighteousness is substituted by the righteousness of another, especially not by judicial murder.

And least of all by the only true and righteous God.

The debt we owe was cleared off the books.

By the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, if we repent of crucifying Him to ourselves by our own sins and trespasses.

No one is imputed His righteousness at the cross, but are only born again by His resurrection from the dead:

1 Peter{1:3} Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Christ died the death of a sinner,

Your words betray your doctrine.

Christ died the death of a righteous man, unjustly judged to be a blaspheming sinner, and imputed smitten of God.

Our justification is a judicial declaration.

In name only, if imputing sin is not judging the soul guilty.

If God imputes sin without judging to be a sinner, then He imputes righteousness without judging to be righteous.

No it doesn't. We aren't Jesus. And that is not logical.

Imputing is esteeming. Whether imputing righteousness to Abraham, or esteeming Jesus smitten of God.

The Scripture holds imputing sin and esteeming smitten of God the same: guilty by the law and cursed of God.

 

[Arial]

There is no 'or' for me.


We will continue to talk differently, so long as anyone believes God imputes something to someone, but not their soul.

God is Spirit and only imputes to souls, not to bodies.

Bible imputing by God is a medical diagnoses of the soul:

Mar 2:17When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.



Which God rebukes as imputing the sins of the parent to the child from the womb.

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son:

Jesus rebuked His own disicplels for believing the old lie of being born with sin of the parents. The unbelieving Jews accused a new disicple of Jesus as being born altogether in sin, in order to dismiss his true testimony of Jesus Christ.



Which is not the sin of the parent imputed to the child from the womb.

What you speak of is true guilt by common deeds, not only by associtation.

Eze 18:20The soul that sinneth, it shall die...the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

At the cross of Jesus' death, that federal headship is imputed to all men by common deeds: Sinning against Christ.


It was wicked men imputing Him with blasphemy, not God.


Isa 53:4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

And it was wicked and ignorant men imputing Him smitten by God, not God.

The only record of imputing and esteeming any sin to Jesus Christ, with death at the hands of God, is only the wicked and ignorant sinners, not God.


yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

I can't do standard grammar and comprehension for others.



Adam didn't sin for anyone but himself.


By the definition of such Headship, He is only Head of them that do as He does. Which is true.

1 John{2:29} If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Believing in Him without doing as Him, is no better than devils that also believe and repent not.

Only believing Jesus is the righteous Lord, does not make anyone righteous as He.

1 John{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous

By first making all sinners cursed for the shedding of the innocent blood of God's own dear Son on a cursed cross. And also by making any and all sinning exceeding cursed and sinful toward all sinners.

By His life He overcame all sinning, but only by His resurrection did He conquer death. Only by acknowledging cursed guilt in His death and repent for His sake, does He likewise make the soul to overcome all sinning as He, and then be rewarded with conquering death in the likeness of His resurrection.



No man's unrighteousness is substituted by the righteousness of another, especially not by judicial murder.

And least of all by the only true and righteous God.




By the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, if we repent of crucifying Him to ourselves by our own sins and trespasses.

No one is imputed His righteousness at the cross, but are only born again by His resurrection from the dead:

1 Peter{1:3} Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Your words betray your doctrine.

Christ died the death of a righteous man, unjustly judged to be a blaspheming sinner, and imputed smitten of God.



In name only, if imputing sin is not judging the soul guilty.

If God imputes sin without judging to be a sinner, then He imputes righteousness without judging to be righteous.


Imputing is esteeming. Whether imputing righteousness to Abraham, or esteeming Jesus smitten of God.

The Scripture holds imputing sin and esteeming smitten of God the same: guilty by the law and cursed of God.

You have the doctrine all wrong, your rebuttals are unbiblical, and you continue to post according to these straw men,refusing to listen and learn.So I have nothing more to contribute.

 

[Ghada]

It says that sin entered the world through Adam, and death by sin, and because of that all men sinned, therefore all men die.

By sinning as Adam.

And sin continues entering the world by all still sinning, so that now the whole world lies in wickedness.

Man is a body and a soul.

True on earth.

And also shows no man is imputing anything on earth by God, but not the soul.

And all men sin.

All men have sinned, other Jesus. All men are not now still sinning and separated from God.

We sin because that is what we are in our father Adam---sinners.

People sin because they have their own lust to do so, even as Adam did.

The soul that sins, is the soul that dies for sinning. No man can blame another for their own sins and trespasses.

The only children of men in their father Adam, are the childen of disobedience as their father Adam.

Adam is not my natural father, nor my Father in heaven. Nor is Adam's father by sinning, my father.

1Jo 3:10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Soul is being used as a way of saying the person who sins A soul does not sin apart from the person.

Because the soul is the person. The soul sins first apart from the body by lusting from the heart, and then sins with the body by works of the flesh.

A soul on earth sins the same way as angels did in heaven:

Isa 14:12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Jas 1:14But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The spiritual origin and nature of sin in heaven and on earth, is lust of the heart against God and His law.

Each soul created in the image of God on earth, has the same power of angels in heaven to rebel against God, by creating ourown lust and will to disobey Him.

Gen 3:4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: {3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The oldest lie in the Book, is that any person sinning against God, is not a dead soul to God.

If you are going to continue to argue your position against the Christian position

Your own Christian position. Not that of all Christians.

, using your definition of terms instead of theirs,

Yours. It's just you and me here.

we will get no where but in a circle

This is true. I also sense the end coming, with nothing new to respond to.

. Your interpretation is not the doctrinal interpretation,

Every interpretation of Scripture is doctrinal interpretation, whether true or fale.

Jesus had much doctrinal interpretation of the Scriptures, that rebuked other traditional interpretations of the same Scriptures. And some of those traidtions had no Scripture at all.

Such as God imputed Himself with the sins of others murdering Him. If the Son is imputed with anything, then so is the Father and the Spirit, lest God the Father, the Holy Ghost, and the Son are not one.

The only way to impute anything to the Son, and not to God the Father, Son, and Spirit, is to impute it to His body only, and not to the soul.

If God the Son is imputed with anything, so is God the Father and the Holy Ghost. Else the Son was not God in the flesh, nor on the cross.

The real problem with some long time traditions, is some people never really think it through in light of all the doctrine of Christ. Some who do see the abnormalities end up searching the Scriptures, to see if their cherished trandtions are really so.

Act 17:11These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

It's a slippery slope to forget the Son of God in the flesh, was not God. That's how people start saying God the Father did something to the Son, that He did not do to Himself and God the Spirit.

If the Son was ever imputed with sin on earth, then so was the Father and the Holy Spirit, else the Son was not God on earth.

 

[Ghada]

You have the doctrine all wrong, your rebuttals are unbiblical, and you continue to post according to these straw men,refusing to listen and learn.

I listen and learn all I can. Just not agree with anything not Bible.

I have found some of the best understanding of Scripture is found by the discipline of correcting errors.

I also am not under any illusion that I must be agreed with, which would be an endless exercise of frustration.

Afterall, only few agreed with Jesus's instruction in Scripture during His day.

So I have nothing more to contribute.

Sounds good. Thanks for the new things I learned how to correct. Particularly about God imputing sin to His Son. It produced great learning in exactly what the Scripture means by making Him sin to others.