Sanctification

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Well then it's good that we have someone who knows the mind of God so well. I am far to unworthy to cross swords with you. I'll just huck any interpretation other than yours into the trash bin and declare to the world that they can stop laboring over the Scriptures because Eleanor has it all figured out.

Be blessed.

 

[makesends]

I agree that the two cannot be separated.

The Bible tells us that God works in us to conform us to the image of His Son:
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. Romans 8:29-30
And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ. Phil 1:6

However, I also do not think that we are to be passive in this process. The NT often tells us to flee temptation, to use our spiritual gifts, not to quench the Spirit, etc. and of course pray. God uses these things to make us grow in our faith. Does that make sanctification synergistic? I guess it may depend on how you look at it. Personally, I think, whatever part I may have in it, anything I do to increase in godliness is first and foremost a result of His work in me - drawing me to walk more closely with him, encouraging me to put into action the gifts He has given me, calling me to know Him more and more.

I don't find any implication of passivity, except, perhaps in retrospect, or in the humility of enjoying God's work. That is to say, as elsewhere on this site, that the truth of the monergism of sanctification does not imply that we are not intensely involved in the work of pursuing holiness. My infant son may have put his full weight on the wrench but in fact it made no difference to me whether he did so or not as to whether I would get the bolt loose.

 

[makesends]

Well then it's good that we have someone who knows the mind of God so well. I am far to unworthy to cross swords with you. I'll just huck any interpretation other than yours into the trash bin and declare to the world that they can stop laboring over the Scriptures because Eleanor has it all figured out.

Be blessed.

Brother, believe me please, when I say you are taking her wrong.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Brother, believe me please, when I say you are taking her wrong.

Oh...I don't believe so. Text is a difficult medium but tone and emphasis are unmistakable. And I also believe that "she" is well able to defend herself. I'm extending the grace of believing, for the moment, that she's human at all. Her responses are more like a chatbot AI than anything else. I've dropped a note in the apologetics section for her.

 

[brightfame52]

Arent the elect, those whom Christ died for, sanctified once and for all solely by the death of Christ, making them sanctified before they are born, like Jeremiah was Jer 1:5

5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

 

[Eleanor]

Oh...I don't believe so. Text is a difficult medium but tone and emphasis are unmistakable. And I also believe that "she" is well able to defend herself. I'm extending the grace of believing, for the moment, that she's human at all. Her responses are more like a chatbot AI than anything else. I've dropped a note in the apologetics section for her.

Perhaps your knowledge of manner of expression is not complete.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Perhaps your knowledge of manner of expression is not complete.

Perhaps exhaustive knowledge isn't necessary.

 

[Eleanor]

Perhaps exhaustive knowledge isn't necessary.

Depends on whether you want to be correct about it or not.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Depends on whether you want to be correct about it or not.

Not at all. I know my type. It doesn't take much for one ass to recognize another. Being cognizant of this fact and attempting to mediate it for the sake of those who interact with us is a different story.

I will however, considering our recent interactions, admit to more certainty that you are a human.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I think it's both. However, it seems to me that sanctification is related to reading the Bible, if I am not mistaken? That strikes me as slightly odd but there you go. And I would have to contend that there must be some effort involved in refraining from sinning as there is a passage in the NT that says when we are tempted God always gives a way out, which denotes to me some personal effort involved.

I know for myself that I struggle all the time with addictions that I cannot shake off, despite many prayers. I would probably put serious addictions into a separate category as that isn't the norm. However, I know I am saved and that I cannot lose salvation. If God changes me in the future that's His will.

 

[makesends]

I think it's both. However, it seems to me that sanctification is related to reading the Bible, if I am not mistaken? That strikes me as slightly odd but there you go. And I would have to contend that there must be some effort involved in refraining from sinning as there is a passage in the NT that says when we are tempted God always gives a way out, which denotes to me some personal effort involved.

I know for myself that I struggle all the time with addictions that I cannot shake off, despite many prayers. I would probably put serious addictions into a separate category as that isn't the norm. However, I know I am saved and that I cannot lose salvation. If God changes me in the future that's His will.

You think WHAT is both? To whom are you answering, here?

But regardless, why say "there must be some effort involved in refraining from sinning"? I mean, isn't that obvious? Doesn't scripture vehemently and repeatedly say so —and, in fact, command it? Who is saying differently? I'm not trying to scorn you here. I'm trying to figure out where you are coming from.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

You think WHAT is both? To whom are you answering, here?

But regardless, why say "there must be some effort involved in refraining from sinning"? I mean, isn't that obvious? Doesn't scripture vehemently and repeatedly say so —and, in fact, command it? Who is saying differently? I'm not trying to scorn you here. I'm trying to figure out where you are coming from.

I'm not Dave but I believe that he's sticking to the original post ( Is Sanctification Monergistic? ). He believes that it is however we actually do "work" on not sinning. And considering the many many responses here on the subject the "obvious" isn't so obvious.

And to date I'm the only one talking about mortification.

 

[ReverendRV]

I'm not Dave but I believe that he's sticking to the original post ( Is Sanctification Monergistic? ). He believes that it is however we actually do "work" on not sinning. And considering the many many responses here on the subject the "obvious" isn't so obvious.

And to date I'm the only one talking about mortification.

That's probably a good direction for the Thread. Mortification is a Work we were created for; a Post Salvific Work that Saint James wants to see...

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

You think WHAT is both? To whom are you answering, here?

But regardless, why say "there must be some effort involved in refraining from sinning"? I mean, isn't that obvious? Doesn't scripture vehemently and repeatedly say so —and, in fact, command it? Who is saying differently? I'm not trying to scorn you here. I'm trying to figure out where you are coming from.

I was answering the OP. I thought that would be obvious but apparently not.

If someone is saying that monergism is true then no, it isn't obvious at all because they aren't making any personal effort to refrain from sinning. That too should be obvious?

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I'm not Dave but I believe that he's sticking to the original post ( Is Sanctification Monergistic? ). He believes that it is however we actually do "work" on not sinning. And considering the many many responses here on the subject the "obvious" isn't so obvious.

And to date I'm the only one talking about mortification.

This.
Thank you.

Sometimes it does help to write more clearly I guess. I just don't have the patience. Is that a sin?

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

This.
Thank you.

Sometimes it does help to write more clearly I guess. I just don't have the patience. Is that a sin?

Sure thing.

As far as sin is concerned...if being impatient runs contrary to your conscience and loving your neighbor then probably. For you.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Sure thing.

As far as sin is concerned...if being impatient runs contrary to your conscience and loving your neighbor then probably. For you.

I feel sometimes like having brevity because I trust others will understand what I am saying without having to walk through everything in a detailed way. I mean, sometimes it seems to me that people ought to have learnt to read well by the time they get to 30 years of age.

I was being slightly tongue in cheek though; I don't really get impatient with others, I just like to be brief.

 

[makesends]

I was answering the OP. I thought that would be obvious but apparently not.

If someone is saying that monergism is true then no, it isn't obvious at all because they aren't making any personal effort to refrain from sinning. That too should be obvious?

I'm not always good at seeing the obvious.

"Monergism in sanctification" does not at all deny that we MUST make personal effort. Even in Regeneration, there is necessarily a resulting effort/work on the part of the new believer, but that work is not causal toward Regeneration.

In the Sanctification, which is subsequent to Regeneration, the effort/work of the believer is causal toward further Sanctification, but that even that is not apart from God's ordaining it, nor is that effort/work uncaused by God.

But there is an obvious difference between the two monergisms. My point is simply that even after regeneration, what I do that is good, is only to God's credit, though we are rewarded. And though we are rewarded, and told, "well done", and we are co-sufferers with Christ, we will gratefully lay our crowns down at his feet.

This is all of it God's work.

 

[makesends]

I feel sometimes like having brevity because I trust others will understand what I am saying without having to walk through everything in a detailed way. I mean, sometimes it seems to me that people ought to have learnt to read well by the time they get to 30 years of age.

I was being slightly tongue in cheek though; I don't really get impatient with others, I just like to be brief.

Where there are many words, there is no lack of sin. Proverbs 10:19

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I'm not always good at seeing the obvious.

"Monergism in sanctification" does not at all deny that we MUST make personal effort. Even in Regeneration, there is necessarily a resulting effort/work on the part of the new believer, but that work is not causal toward Regeneration.

In the Sanctification, which is subsequent to Regeneration, the effort/work of the believer is causal toward further Sanctification, but that even that is not apart from God's ordaining it, nor is that effort/work uncaused by God.

But there is an obvious difference between the two monergisms. My point is simply that even after regeneration, what I do that is good, is only to God's credit, though we are rewarded. And though we are rewarded, and told, "well done", and we are co-sufferers with Christ, we will gratefully lay our crowns down at his feet.

This is all of it God's work.

I'll take it to be a kind of a paradoxical situation, as I can't really figure it out either way. As I said in my original post, I think it must be a bit of monergism and a bit of synergism together. That's not regeneration and justification, which is all of God in my opinion.

Certainly it seemed to me at the time before I was saved that I was believing or having genuine faith while reading the Bible etc., and then all of a sudden - salvation. Post salvation, I don't experience that type of faith in the same way. I have even had moments of doubt but they are usually about the afterlife destination.