A Case For Amillenialism

[CrowCross]

What would make you think it is is not ?

I can't find any scripture that support that.

Then again there is no scripture that speaks of a few of the things I think it might be.

 

[David1701]

Once again...look up.

What did Jesus announce would happen during that generation (the 1st C. people to whom he spoke)?

Jerusalem would be destroyed
(Matt. 23:38)

The temple would be destroyed
(Matt. 24:2)

Christ would be seen in the sky
(Matt. 26:64)

His angels would be seen in the clouds
(2 Thess. 1:7,8)

There would be a great light
(Matt. 24:27)

A supernatural sign would appear in the sky
(Matt. 24:30)

The sun would darken and the moon turn red
(Matt. 24:30)

There would be earthquakes, famines, disease, wars and false prophets
(Matt. 24:6,7)

All this would happen in the first generation of believers
(Matt. 24:34)

etc.

Most of these things have been described, in detail, by 1st C. historians...

Josephus described how the temple in Jerusalem was completely destroyed in 68-70 A.D. and Jerusalem itself was sacked, after being surrounded by the Roman army.

The sun was darkened and the moon turned to blood, because of the smoke and flames.

The sea turned red, because of all the blood flowing into it, and there were bodies piled up in the streets.

There were famines so severe that some mothers ate their own children; disease was rampant and there were many false prophets.

There were numerous earthquakes and wars at that time also.

Witnesses told of armies of angels, appearing in the clouds, with great fire. There were supernatural signs in the sky and on Earth and bright light shining from heaven.

The presence of the Lord left the temple and moved to the Mount of Olives.

etc.

 

[prism]

Dispensationalism developed from teaching by a Roman Catholic (Futurism, which was designed to take the heat off the papacy and Roman Catholicism). The Reformation had really begun to take off, when it was realised that the office of Pope is the anti-Christ and that Roman Catholicism is the Whore of Babylon, Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth.

Well, that's interesting, considering Rome itself spawned Amillennialism through Augustine. Luther and Calvin just followed suit.

 

[Mr GLee]

I can't find any scripture that support that.

Then again there is no scripture that speaks of a few of the things I think it might be.

The lie is of the many lying and signs to wonder after as if it was prophecy God's living word.

What do you think scripture is informing us?

Trust lying signs and wonders just as if it was they were prophecy in order to seek His approval??

 

[David1701]

Well, that's interesting, considering Rome itself spawned Amillennialism through Augustine. Luther and Calvin just followed suit.

Amillenialism (an unfortunate misnomer) existed side-by-side with Premillenialism (N.B. the early form of Premillenialism was very different from modern Dispensationalism), in the early centuries, but Amillenialism gradually displaced it, in the 2nd - 4th centuries A.D..

 

[CrowCross]

What did Jesus announce would happen during that generation (the 1st C. people to whom he spoke)?

Jerusalem would be destroyed
(Matt. 23:38)

Didn't happen as Jerusalem is still around today. 1948 happened.

The temple would be destroyed
(Matt. 24:2)

Yes it was....and will be rebuilt in the near future.

Christ would be seen in the sky
(Matt. 26:64)

Did not happen.

His angels would be seen in the clouds
(2 Thess. 1:7,8)

Did not happen.

There would be a great light
(Matt. 24:27)

Did not happen.

A supernatural sign would appear in the sky
(Matt. 24:30)

Did not happen.

The sun would darken and the moon turn red
(Matt. 24:30)

Did not happen.

There would be earthquakes, famines, disease, wars and false prophets
(Matt. 24:6,7)

This has been happening.

All this would happen in the first generation of believers
(Matt. 24:34)

The fig tree generation is here now. Not then.

 

[CrowCross]

Amillenialism (an unfortunate misnomer) existed side-by-side with Premillenialism (N.B. the early form of Premillenialism was very different from modern Dispensationalism), in the early centuries, but Amillenialism gradually displaced it, in the 2nd - 4th centuries A.D..

Just when did Rev 8 happen????

 

[David1701]

Didn't happen as Jerusalem is still around today. 1948 happened.

Yes it was....and will be rebuilt in the near future.

Did not happen.

Did not happen.

Did not happen.

Did not happen.

Did not happen.

This has been happening.

The fig tree generation is here now. Not then.

As I told you (and which you removed from your quote of my post, which comes across as devious), there were EYEWITNESSES of the things that you claim did not happen. They were quoted by ancient historians.

Re. the "fig tree generation" - the fig tree was unbelieving Israel, whose temple (necessary for their Old Covenant worship) was destroyed in A.D. 70. Where the carcass was (the dead body of unbelieving Israel), the eagles were gathered (the eagle being the symbol of the Roman army, which devoured the dead body when Jerusalem was sacked).

Yes, 1948 happened - so what?

Denial is a sign of pride and deception. Pray about it.

 

[David1701]

Just when did Rev 8 happen????

I don't claim to understand all of Revelation; nor do I claim that it is all past.

We were not discussing Rev. 8 anyway, so why did you randomly run off to that chapter of a different book?

 

[TMSO]

Replacement theology is often used as an accusation and folks often misunderstand what is meant.
Redemption is inclusive. God includes folks from all groups ‘In Christ’.

Some of us know exactly what it means. The church is not Israel. If you believe it is, you deny God's word.

 

[David1701]

Some of us know exactly what it means. The church is not Israel. If you believe it is, you deny God's word.

Spiritual Israel is the church. When Gentiles are saved, we are grafted into spiritual Israel. Obviously that is different from the nation of Israel, which is largely in unbelief.

 

[David1701]

...

The fig tree generation is here now. Not then.

Matt. 21:19 (KJV) And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.

That was the "fig tree generation". Old Covenant, unbelieving Israel was to bear no more fruit.

 

[Alive]

Spiritual Israel is the church. When Gentiles are saved, we are grafted into spiritual Israel. Obviously that is different from the nation of Israel, which is largely in unbelief.

And secular as a nation, unlike dispensationalism, I do not see any nation called Israel today as relevant.
I do believe toward the end, many ethnic Jews will know Christ, as the time of the gentiles winds down.

 

[CrowCross]

As I told you (and which you removed from your quote of my post, which comes across as devious), there were EYEWITNESSES of the things that you claim did not happen. They were quoted by ancient historians.

You posted basically nothing. You quoted basically nothing...that is all you did was make a claim. I had no reason to respond to those unsupported claims.

If those events were the worst thing that has ever happen or will ever happen......Matt 24:21 "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.".....the Temple event was a cake walk.

Re. the "fig tree generation" - the fig tree was unbelieving Israel, whose temple (necessary for their Old Covenant worship) was destroyed in A.D. 70. Where the carcass was (the dead body of unbelieving Israel), the eagles were gathered (the eagle being the symbol of the Roman army, which devoured the dead body when Jerusalem was sacked).

Yes, 1948 happened - so what?

Israel is the fig tree.
Hos 9:10 Like grapes in the wilderness, I found Israel. Like the first fruit on the fig tree in its first season,.....

The generation that Jesus speaks of “not passing” until He returns is a future generation, namely, the people living when the predicted events occur. The word generation refers to the people alive in the future when the events of Matthew 24–25 take place. ref

Denial is a sign of pride and deception. Pray about it.

{edited for personal insults)

 

[makesends]

And secular as a nation, unlike dispensationalism, I do not see any nation called Israel today as relevant.
I do believe toward the end, many ethnic Jews will know Christ, as the time of the gentiles winds down.

Perhaps an off-topic tangent, a curious notion, but there has been for rather a long time now, a speculation that in the end, ALL believers will have had some degree of Jewish ancestry.

 

[Alive]

Perhaps an off-topic tangent, a curious notion, but there has been for rather a long time now, a speculation that in the end, ALL believers will have had some degree of Jewish ancestry.

That doesn't make much sense to me. I had never heard this before.

 

[Alive]

If those events were the worst thing that has ever happen or will ever happen......Matt 24:21 "For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.".....the Temple event was a cake walk.

Whatever else can be said, it sure was not a cake walk.
Have you read the Josephus account?

 

[Arial]

Perhaps an off-topic tangent, a curious notion, but there has been for rather a long time now, a speculation that in the end, ALL believers will have had some degree of Jewish ancestry.

That was the position of Jeremiah1five who finally had to be banned because of his racist rhetoric against Gentiles, much of which he attributed to Christ. That is the only place I have heard it. But it is nonsense and can never be proven.

 

[David1701]

And secular as a nation, unlike dispensationalism, I do not see any nation called Israel today as relevant.
I do believe toward the end, many ethnic Jews will know Christ, as the time of the gentiles winds down.

I also believe that many Jews will come to know Christ, as we near the end of the times of the Gentiles (the number of Messianic Jews in Israel has increased significantly, since 1948, although it's still a very small minority).

I've been somewhat unsure what to make of modern Israel, since it is, as you pointed out, a secular nation and completely unlike ancient Israel; however, it has had miraculous deliverances from its enemies (1948, 1967 and 1973).

 

[David1701]

You posted basically nothing. You quoted basically nothing...that is all you did was make a claim. I had no reason to respond to those unsupported claims.

You want some quotes? Alright then, here you are (you won't be able to make any more claims that I've posted "basically nothing").

1) The sign of there being many false prophets and false messiahs

'Now there was then a great number of false prophets,
suborned by the tyrants, to impose on the people:
who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God.'
(Flavius Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book VI, Chapter V, Section 2)

'And now these impostors and deceivers persuaded the multitude
to follow them into the wilderness: and pretended that they would exhibit manifest wonders and signs, that should be performed by the providence of God.'
(Flavius Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book XX, Chapter VIII, Section 6)

'The need for this warning soon became apparent, for within a year of ascension, Dositheus the Samaritan rose up, who had the nerve to claim that he was the Messiah whom Moses predicted; while his disciple Simon Magus misled large crowds into believing that he was the 'great power of God'.
(George Peter Holford, 'The Destruction of Jerusalem, An Absolute and Undeniable Evidence of the Divine Origin of Christianity')

Holford names many other similar false messiahs from that period.

2) The sign of wars and rumours of wars

'I am entering on the history of a period rich in disasters, frightful in its wars, torn by civil strife, and even in peace full of horrors.

Four emperors perished by the sword. There were three civil wars; there were more with foreign enemies; there were often wars that had both characters at once. ...

Besides the manifold vicissitudes of human affairs, there were prodigies in heaven and earth, the warning voices of the thunder, and other intimations of the future, auspicious or gloomy, doubtful or not to be mistaken.

Never surely did more terrible calamities of the Roman People, or evidence more conclusive, prove that the Gods take no thought for our happiness, but only for our punishment.
(Gaius Tacitus, The Histories, Book I, January-March A.D. 69)

'... a great multitude of the Germans were in commotion, and tended to rebellion. And as the Gauls in their neighbourhood joined with them, they conspired together...'

'... every part of the habitable earth under them was in an unsettled and tottering condition, ...'

'At the very same time did the bold attempt of the Scythians against the Romans occur. .... they slew a great many of the Romans that guarded the frontiers: and as the consular legate Fonteius Agrippa came to meet them, and fought courageously against them, he was slain by them. They then over-ran all the region that had been subject to him; tearing and rending everything that fell in their way.'
(Flavius Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book VII, section 2 and 3)

3) The sign of famines

'Now of those that perished by famine in the city, the number was prodigious; and the miseries they underwent were unspeakable.

For if so much as the shadow of any kind of food did any where appear, a war was commenced presently; and the dearest friends fell a fighting one with another about it: snatching from each other the most miserable supports of life. Nor would men believe that those who were dying had no food; but the robbers would search them when they were expiring; lest anyone should have concealed food in their bosoms, and counterfeited dying. Nay these robbers gaped for want, and ran about stumbling and staggering along, like mad dogs; and reeling against the doors of the houses, like drunken men. They would also, in the great distress they were in, rush into the very same houses, two or three times in one and the same day.

Moreover their hunger was so intolerable, that it obliged them to chew everything; while they gathered such things as the most sordid animals would not touch; and endured to eat them.

Nor did they at length abstain from girdles, and shoes; and the very leather which belonged to their shields they pulled off and gnawed. The very wisps of old hay became food to some; and some gathered up fibres, and sold a very small weight of them for four Attick.'
(Flavius Josephus, War of the Jews, Book 6, Chapter 3, Paragraph 4)

to be continued...