A Case For Amillenialism

[David1701]

You posted basically nothing. You quoted basically nothing...that is all you did was make a claim. I had no reason to respond to those unsupported claims.

Continued from previous post...

4) The sign of plagues

"History distinguishes two major cases of infectious diseases that occurred before the Jewish-Roman war. The first epidemic occurred in Babylon around 40 AD and raged so alarmingly that many crowds of Jews fled from that city to Seleucia for safety. The other happened in Rome 65 AD and cost the lives of amazing numbers of people.

Tacitus and Suetonius also described that similar disasters prevailed during this period, in different parts of the Roman Empire. After Jerusalem was surrounded by the army of Titus, pernicious diseases soon made their appearance, to aggravate the misery and to reinforce the horrors of the siege. They were caused in part by the huge crowds gathered together in the city, in part by the rotten exhalations caused by the unearthed dead, and in part by the spread of famine.
(George Peter Holford, The Destruction of Jerusalem, 1805)

5) The sign of earthquakes

'For there broke out a prodigious storm in the night, with the utmost violence, and very strong winds; with the largest showers of rain; with continual lightnings, terrible thundrings, and amazing concussions and bellowings of the earth that was in an earthquake.

These things were a manifest indication that some destruction was coming upon men, when the system of the world was put into this disorder; and any one would guess that these wonders foreshowed some grand calamities that were coming.'
(Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book 4, chapter 3)

'How often have cities in Asia and Achaea been hit by a fatal shock! So many cities were swallowed up in Syria, so many in Macedonia! How many times has Cyprus been destroyed by this disaster! How often has Paphos become a ruin! We often received the news of entire cities that were destroyed in one fell swoop.'
(Seneca the Younger, circa 58 A.D.)
(quoted by Henry Alford, The New Testament for English Readers, p. 163.)

6) The sign of the presence of the LORD leaving the temple and moving to the Mount of Olives

'The presence of God left the temple and stayed for 3.5 years on the Mount of Olives, hoping that Israel would repent, but they did not. In the meantime, a supernatural voice spoke from heaven: 'Return, apostate children. Return to Me and I will return to you.' When they did not repent, the voice said, 'I will return to My place.'
(Jewish Rabbi named "Jonathan", an eye-witness of the destruction of Jerusalem)
(quoted in, Secrets of Golgotha, by Ernest L. Martin. 84)

'Which it is possible for us to see literally fulfilled in another way even to-day, since believers in Christ all congregate from all parts of the world, not as of old time because of the glory of Jerusalem, nor that they may worship in the ancient Temple at Jerusalem, but they rest there that they may learn both about the city being taken and devastated as the prophets foretold, and that they may worship at the Mount of Olives opposite to the city, whither the glory of the Lord migrated when it left the former city.'

(Eusebius, Proof of the Gospel, Book VI, Chapter 18)

to be continued...

 

[David1701]

You posted basically nothing. You quoted basically nothing...that is all you did was make a claim. I had no reason to respond to those unsupported claims.

Continued from previous post...

7) The sign of armies of angels and an enormous figure of great beauty seen in the clouds over Jerusalem

'A certain figure appeared of tremendous size,
which many saw, just as the books of the Jews have disclosed,
and before the setting of the sun there were suddenly seen
in the clouds chariots and armed battle arrays,
by which the cities of all Iudaea and its territories were invaded.'

(Quote from chapter 44 from the Latin version of the Pseudo-Hegesippus)

Pseudo-Hegesippus is a famous historical account of the Jewish people. The above quote is about the time immediately prior to the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies.

'A demonic phantom appeared of incredible size, and what will be related would have seemed a fairy-tale had it not been told by those who saw it, and been attended by suffering worthy of the portent. For before sunset there appeared in the air over the whole country chariots and armed troops coursing through the clouds and surrounding the cities.'

(Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Chapter 8, Sections 1-6)

The above is also about the time shortly before the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies.

'...chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.'

(Flavius Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book 6, Chapter 5, Sections 2-3)
The above quote refers to the time when Jerusalem and the temple were actually being destroyed.

'There had been seen hosts joining battle in the skies, fiery gleams of arms...the temple illuminated by a sudden radiance from the clouds.'
(Gaius Tacitus, The Histories, Book 5.13)

'Now it happened after this that there was seen over the Holy of Holies from above for the entire night the outline of a man's face, the like of whose beauty had never been seen in all the land, and his appearance was very awesome. Moreover, in those days were seen chariots of fire and horsemen, a great force flying across the sky near to the ground coming against Jerusalem and all the land of Judah, all of them horses of fire and riders of fire.'

(Sepher Jossipon, Burning of the temple, Chapter 87)

8) Signs in the heavens

'At one time a star, in form like a sword, stood over the city, and a comet, which lasted for a whole year;' and ... so great a light shone about the altar and the temple that it seemed to be bright day; and this continued for half an hour. This seemed to the unskillful a good sign, but was interpreted by the sacred scribes as portending those events which very soon took place.'

(Eusebius of Caesarea, Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Chapter 8, Sections 1-6)

'Thus there was a star resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour.'

(Flavius Josephus, ‘Wars of the Jews’, Book 6, chapter 5, sections 2 and 3)

'...the temple illuminated by a sudden radiance from the clouds.'

(Gaius Tacitus, The Histories, Book 5.13)

 

[Alive]

I also believe that many Jews will come to know Christ, as we near the end of the times of the Gentiles (the number of Messianic Jews in Israel has increased significantly, since 1948, although it's still a very small minority).

I've been somewhat unsure what to make of modern Israel, since it is, as you pointed out, a secular nation and completely unlike ancient Israel; however, it has had miraculous deliverances from its enemies (1948, 1967 and 1973).

Ya…it would seem so. They certainly are a desperate and motivated people.
Don’t get me wrong, they battle some very evil folks.

 

[makesends]

That doesn't make much sense to me. I had never heard this before.

Doesn't make much sense to me, either, though it is a curious notion. It may be a way for some to justify God's favoritism toward the Jews in the OT, when they don't/won't see the OT - NT parallels @Arial has been talking about.

Probably impossible to prove either way.

 

[TMSO]

Spiritual Israel is the church. When Gentiles are saved, we are grafted into spiritual Israel. Obviously that is different from the nation of Israel, which is largely in unbelief.

Spiritual Israel is still Israel. It is still the seed of Abraham. Jews are not grafted into the tree/vine, Gentiles are. Paul warned the Gentiles against what replacement theology is. He basically said that they are there solely by invitation, whereas for the Jews, it was a birthright. As such, it is simple to be disinvited, and, as with the prodigal son, that natural branch (the Jews) brought back in. After all, it was their position to begin with. The covenant was with Israel, not the church. The New Covenant is with the church. If you read what Peter said about this in the church council, it is clear that the Jews believed that the Old Covenant still applied to the Jews. It was powerless, as Jesus abolished the law, but that burden, according to Peter, was for the Jews, not the Gentiles. In the end, all the church had to say was not, live by the covenant of Israel/the Jews, but, flee from immorality and do not eat meat sacrificed to idols and it will be well with you.

When replacement theology says the church is Israel, it is usurping the covenant that God made with Israel, which Paul said could NOT be rescinded. It could not be taken back. However, those in replacement theology state differently. It was taken from Israel and given to the church. That is the same as saying it was rescinded, which God, through Paul, said is not the case, and would never be the case. Israel was never rejected. They are under the chastisement of God. Even through Moses, God explained this. If they humble themselves and come to God, He will accept them. God never said that He would reject them, and He never did. Israel remains Israel, the church is made up of the Gentiles and the Jews/Israel. The promises made to Israel belong to Israel, along with the curses. Those curses exist because of the promises, not separate from the promises. God will not fail to be faithful to the forefathers who followed Him. He will not break those promises, whereas in replacement theology, God not only breaks those promises, but breaks the faith with Israel. Both are against His nature.

 

[CrowCross]

Whatever else can be said, it sure was not a cake walk.
Have you read the Josephus account?

The preterist have a problem with " now, no, and never will be."

As for Josephus account...I've read some of those "historical" accounts....So what? When did the Mt of Olives split?

 

[CrowCross]

You want some quotes? Alright then, here you are (you won't be able to make any more claims that I've posted "basically nothing").

1) The sign of there being many false prophets and false messiahs

'Now there was then a great number of false prophets,
suborned by the tyrants, to impose on the people:
who denounced this to them, that they should wait for deliverance from God.'
(Flavius Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book VI, Chapter V, Section 2)

'And now these impostors and deceivers persuaded the multitude
to follow them into the wilderness: and pretended that they would exhibit manifest wonders and signs, that should be performed by the providence of God.'
(Flavius Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book XX, Chapter VIII, Section 6)

'The need for this warning soon became apparent, for within a year of ascension, Dositheus the Samaritan rose up, who had the nerve to claim that he was the Messiah whom Moses predicted; while his disciple Simon Magus misled large crowds into believing that he was the 'great power of God'.
(George Peter Holford, 'The Destruction of Jerusalem, An Absolute and Undeniable Evidence of the Divine Origin of Christianity')

Holford names many other similar false messiahs from that period.

2) The sign of wars and rumours of wars

'I am entering on the history of a period rich in disasters, frightful in its wars, torn by civil strife, and even in peace full of horrors.

Four emperors perished by the sword. There were three civil wars; there were more with foreign enemies; there were often wars that had both characters at once. ...

Besides the manifold vicissitudes of human affairs, there were prodigies in heaven and earth, the warning voices of the thunder, and other intimations of the future, auspicious or gloomy, doubtful or not to be mistaken.

Never surely did more terrible calamities of the Roman People, or evidence more conclusive, prove that the Gods take no thought for our happiness, but only for our punishment.
(Gaius Tacitus, The Histories, Book I, January-March A.D. 69)

'... a great multitude of the Germans were in commotion, and tended to rebellion. And as the Gauls in their neighbourhood joined with them, they conspired together...'

'... every part of the habitable earth under them was in an unsettled and tottering condition, ...'

'At the very same time did the bold attempt of the Scythians against the Romans occur. .... they slew a great many of the Romans that guarded the frontiers: and as the consular legate Fonteius Agrippa came to meet them, and fought courageously against them, he was slain by them. They then over-ran all the region that had been subject to him; tearing and rending everything that fell in their way.'
(Flavius Josephus, Wars of the Jews, Book VII, section 2 and 3)

3) The sign of famines

'Now of those that perished by famine in the city, the number was prodigious; and the miseries they underwent were unspeakable.

For if so much as the shadow of any kind of food did any where appear, a war was commenced presently; and the dearest friends fell a fighting one with another about it: snatching from each other the most miserable supports of life. Nor would men believe that those who were dying had no food; but the robbers would search them when they were expiring; lest anyone should have concealed food in their bosoms, and counterfeited dying. Nay these robbers gaped for want, and ran about stumbling and staggering along, like mad dogs; and reeling against the doors of the houses, like drunken men. They would also, in the great distress they were in, rush into the very same houses, two or three times in one and the same day.

Moreover their hunger was so intolerable, that it obliged them to chew everything; while they gathered such things as the most sordid animals would not touch; and endured to eat them.

Nor did they at length abstain from girdles, and shoes; and the very leather which belonged to their shields they pulled off and gnawed. The very wisps of old hay became food to some; and some gathered up fibres, and sold a very small weight of them for four Attick.'
(Flavius Josephus, War of the Jews, Book 6, Chapter 3, Paragraph 4)

to be continued...

You're posting a cake walk. Revelations tells us what's coming.

 

[CrowCross]

'A certain figure appeared of tremendous size,
which many saw, just as the books of the Jews have disclosed,
and before the setting of the sun there were suddenly seen
in the clouds chariots and armed battle arrays,
by which the cities of all Iudaea and its territories were invaded.'

Where did the books of the Jews describe this?

 

[Mr GLee]

Spiritual Israel is still Israel. It is still the seed of Abraham. Jews are not grafted into the tree/vine, Gentiles are. Paul warned the Gentiles against what replacement theology is. He basically said that they are there solely by invitation, whereas for the Jews, it was a birthright. As such, it is simple to be disinvited, and, as with the prodigal son, that natural branch (the Jews) brought back in. After all, it was their position to begin with. The covenant was with Israel, not the church. The New Covenant is with the church. If you read what Peter said about this in the church council, it is clear that the Jews believed that the Old Covenant still applied to the Jews. It was powerless, as Jesus abolished the law, but that burden, according to Peter, was for the Jews, not the Gentiles. In the end, all the church had to say was not, live by the covenant of Israel/the Jews, but, flee from immorality and do not eat meat sacrificed to idols and it will be well with you.

When replacement theology says the church is Israel, it is usurping the covenant that God made with Israel, which Paul said could NOT be rescinded. It could not be taken back. However, those in replacement theology state differently. It was taken from Israel and given to the church. That is the same as saying it was rescinded, which God, through Paul, said is not the case, and would never be the case. Israel was never rejected. They are under the chastisement of God. Even through Moses, God explained this. If they humble themselves and come to God, He will accept them. God never said that He would reject them, and He never did. Israel remains Israel, the church is made up of the Gentiles and the Jews/Israel. The promises made to Israel belong to Israel, along with the curses. Those curses exist because of the promises, not separate from the promises. God will not fail to be faithful to the forefathers who followed Him. He will not break those promises, whereas in replacement theology, God not only breaks those promises, but breaks the faith with Israel. Both are against His nature.

I would offer.

Not replacement theology. But a promise to rename the bride of Christ. . . a more befitting name to name the bride of all the nations of the world as a demonym. People known by location .

Christian literally with no other meaning added .Residents of the city of Christ prepared for the bride or wife named after her founder Christ the husband . Previously calling her "Israel" meaning one who wrestles with flesh and blood and overcomes by the Spirit of Christ working in the born again name

And just as in not all Israel is born again Israel in the same way not all that use the word Christian are Christians

Isaiah 62King James VersionFor Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Christian a word that has all but lost its use to help understand the mysteries of faith turned into a derogatory name by the world like Bible thumper . . .a word Satan hates

Christians pray to make the name Christian create again. Sound the Trump.

 

[David1701]

You're posting a cake walk. Revelations tells us what's coming.

I tell you what, why don't you re-enact the starvation, disease, tortures, etc., of the Roman siege of Jerusalem, with you as a victim, then tell us how much of a "cake walk" it was.

 

[CrowCross]

I tell you what, why don't you re-enact the starvation, disease, tortures, etc., of the Roman siege of Jerusalem, with you as a victim, then tell us how much of a "cake walk" it was.

We can do it 6 million times with the holocaust....which was far worse. But, you will have to argue it wasn't worse.

What's coming is much more worse than the destruction of Jerusalem or the holocaust.

 

[Mr GLee]

We can do it 6 million times with the holocaust....which was far worse. But, you will have to argue it wasn't worse.

What's coming is much more worse than the destruction of Jerusalem or the holocaust.

Worse. The end of time?

 

[TMSO]

I would offer.

Not replacement theology. But a promise to rename the bride of Christ. . . a more befitting name to name the bride of all the nations of the world as a demonym. People known by location .

Christian literally with no other meaning added .Residents of the city of Christ prepared for the bride or wife named after her founder Christ the husband . Previously calling her "Israel" meaning one who wrestles with flesh and blood and overcomes by the Spirit of Christ working in the born again name

And just as in not all Israel is born again Israel in the same way not all that use the word Christian are Christians

Isaiah 62King James VersionFor Zion's sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem's sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Christian a word that has all but lost its use to help understand the mysteries of faith turned into a derogatory name by the world like Bible thumper . . .a word Satan hates

Christians pray to make the name Christian create again. Sound the Trump.

Christian means Christ follower. Yes it was an insult because of what it meant at that time. However, it has come to mean more, and people came to recognize that.

 

[Mr GLee]

Christian means Christ follower. Yes it was an insult because of what it meant at that time. However, it has come to mean more, and people came to recognize that.

Christian means residents of the city of Christ prepared for his bide the church. named after her founder and husband Christ Following is what they do .Christian who they are.

 

[TMSO]

Christian means residents of the city of Christ prepared for his bide the church. named after her founder and husband Christ Following is what they do .Christian who they are.

You don't get to change definitions. Christian means Christ follower.