Salvation and sanctification is now complete in Christ: Consecration then follows

[Ghada]

Why, do you keep accusing us of this​

Do you not repeatedly say that you are sinner? That you certainly will sin again? And in your case, do you not go on to loudly proclaim that you one of the biggest sinners of them all!

Have I not asked why I am the accuser by taking your own words at face value? Do you not therefore accuse yourself, when your own words are repeated by others?

Jhn 8:43
Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

If anyone stops accusing themself of such things, then others can stop agreeing with them.

, without providing a single shred of evidence (a post; a comment) to back up your accusations.​

If our own words are not evidence of ourselves, then that's called the hypocrisy of lying about ourselves.

Try rereading your own words about yourself. If you have erred about yourself. then ask the moderators to delete them, or let you change them at this late date.

If you are not a sinner, especially not the greatest of sinners, who knows you will surely sin some more and more and more, then say so now, and change the past.

Isn't this bearing false witness?​

About oneself? Yes. If we say something about ourselves, that is not true, then we are indeed bearing false witness about ourselves.

Matth 12:37
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Again, I believe that you do not understand what we are trying to share with you.​

I never asked anyone to share anything with me, but only any corrections of my first argument from the Scripture.

Instead, some just come out of the closet and start 'sharing' their own ideas about things, and then think they've proven or disproven something.

But, if someone wants to publicly share something with me, then I can publicly respond to what I think of it. And if repeating their own words is 'accusing' them of something, then they either need to show they are not their own words, or repent and change them, or acknolwedge they are offended at their own accusations about themselves.

The last part is no unknown, nor even uncommon. Many times we can say things without thinking about it, because we thing is sounds good, and then our own words come back to haunt us. The wise person changes what they say, and the foolish person refuses to be corrected. The worst go on to accuse others of saying bad false things about them, when only repeating their own words back to them.

I believe that last case is psychological anamoly, that has to do with some sort of private club mentality. The members are the only ones that can say certain things about themselves, and nonmembers are not allowed to repeat them. In such cases, they ought keep their private membership conversation to themselves, and more closely watch what they say in public. Afterall, no one has a private club membership of the whole world.

Although, some think they do, such as all the world knows that everyone is still a sinner, who knows they certainly will sin again and again, more or less.

I for one disagree. I believe there are saints in Christ Jesus, who certainly have repetned of all their sinning for His sake alone. They do not lie about themselves and call themselves sinners, nor do they accuse Jesus Christ of ministering sin to His own body members.

That is the only private club on earth, that will stand in the judgment of the Lamb, and be resurrected to walk forever with Him and God. Even as on earth, so in heaven.

The great delusion is walking with Him in heaven only, but not with Him on earth.

Didn't I reply to you, quoting Paul on the objection he anticipates is coming when he preached the Free Gift of Righteousness of the Gospel? Paul knew that after he preached this Gracious and Merciful Doctrine of Grace for the ungodly that people would challenge him,​

I don't challenge Paul the apostle of Jesus Christ, nor his gospel of the repentance of the cross.

I only reject this other kind of apostle 'Paul' preaching some gospel about what a really bad sinners he still is, but not by his grace and faith alone. That includes one of his personal followers, that is apparentlyt trying to compete with him in all manner of ungodliness.

I don't reject their testimony of themselves, but only their accusation that Jesus is the Christ they do it with.

Because he knew people would think 1) It's too good to be true,​

No, there are actually many doers of unrighteousness, that buy into the gospel of being righteous by one's own faith alone. And some even preach more unrighteousness the better, that their own grace and declaration of faith alone may be even mightier than rest!

"As Paul himself once exclaim, "I am the Chief of sinners!" Like Paul, I am the chief of sinners. But praise be to God who justifies the ungodly!"

And so the more ungodly we are living, the mightier the claim of being justified by our own faith alone!

However, there are a few who know it's not at all good, especially not to good to be true, but only too evil and hypocritical to be even considered, much less believed.

2 Tim
{2:15} Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. {2:16} But shun profane [and] vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

and 2) That is contrary to what has been taught before, the antithesis to Law. So, some saw him as a heretic and as enemy to the state.

Romans 6:1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?

Please explain why Paul says after saying, Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. And here you have a huge problem, because you said one is not justified apart from works, but Paul says otherwise.​

No more repeats after the first or second time.

Matthew
{15:14} Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

​

You do not know what they teach personally, but yet falsely accuse them, why?

See above large rebuttal.

If you are not an unrepented ungodly sinner, that knows you surely shall sin some more, and in your case the most ungodly, then just say so.

You can have those words stricken from the public record by the moderators, and I'll not bring them up again. I only address what I read and hear, not what is no more written nor spoken. I'm more than glad to let bygones be bygones.

That way, someone might actually address any specific arguments I make from the Scriptures provided, to wit,

"In Jesus Christ's kingdom and body on earth, there is no separation between His salvation and sanctification, even as there is none between His faith and works."

(Scriptures are already posted in the first post. If anyone wants to show any error in the argument, I'll be glad to look at them. Thanks.)

At lease show the courtesy of knowing what they taught and be honest about it, instead of spreading lies.

Sort of like the movie says, "It's not what you teach that offends me so, son. But what you say about yourself."
You see in truth, I am more offended by your own ungodly words about yourself, then you are. I believe that if you cease assaulting yourself, you may indeed return to the respentance of the Lord for your own soul's sake.

2Ti 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;

 

[Ghada]

Another false allegation, Please, by all means provide the post where I said I hold to OSAS?​

I know that some things have earned a bad rep, and so those believing and teaching it have changed the names to protect the guilty. Such as liberals now calling themselves 'progressives'. And global warming is now called 'climate change'.

And so, now OSAS is being saved and justified by 'Faith Alone'. The resulting delusion is the same: So long as someone believes they are saved and justified, then they are, apart from any works they may be doing. (Or perhaps really believe it...)

I think this is the problem, you go to third party Anti-Calvinism sites and think you have it all figured out.​

Yep, a Calvinist predeterminator. The only time I've gone to Calvin's own writing of predetermination, was to make sure those now teaching it are correct about what he says.

I've learned that misstating what others say has become so prevelant, that some can even do it with their own teachers. (It's a common practice carried over from them that consistently misstate the Bible to teach their own stuff. It becomes sort of infectious. "O, what webs we weave..." Or, as the Bible puts it, "A little leaven leavens...")

Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Notice that Paul doesn't exclude any fallen sinner in Adam in these passages? Or unless you are not fallen like the rest of us, and don't even need a Savior?​

As we see here with such classic explicity: All present dead sinners and trespasses are excluded. Only past sinners and trespassers are included.

It's a classic change of Scripture to avoid the first step of the gospel of repentance unto salvation: Repentance from past sins and tresspasses.

(And for the half hearted repenters, that's godly repentance unto his salvation: Repentance from all sins and trespasses.)

 

[Ghada]

Finally, thank you for answering the question.

No problem. I found that I actually could answer it honestly with a yes/no, and so I did.

So, you believe in a Legalistic Salvation which is a delusion and a fools errand.

Excluding the fact that it is a dishonest question rigged to find fault.

Mar 12:13
And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words.

The following fault finding is made anyway. It just proves some people don't read teaching of the Bible, any better than reading the Bible. As I've noted, once someone begins to wilfully misread the Bible to change it into something of their own liking, they have no problem wilfully misreading teaching of the Bible, to change it into something else to accuse.

Where sinners "by doing good works or by obeying the law, a person earns and merits salvation." This is not Gospel but Law, and placing people back under the Law to redeem themselves. This was one of the major debates of the Reformation. My advice you can get it or leave it. Read up on why this debate happened, and learn both sides of the debate. Leave your bias glasses out of it. The Gospel is an announcement of what God has already accomplished in his Son for his people.

No more responses to repeats.

What did he finish?

​

On the cross, He finished fulfilling His own law, by dying on a cross without sinning, knowing any sin, nor having any sin imputed and judged to Him.

Those who lie to justify their own sinning, and say their sins are imputed to Jesus on the cross, join the world in calling Him accursed for dying on a cross:

1Co 12:3

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

 

[Ghada]

Well, as I said before, even our repenting of sins​

Your's? Didn't you say you have ceased with all that repenting stuff by 'recanting' of it? Isn't that why you are in such great competition with that cheif sinner called Paul in your church? Are you as great a sinner as he? Or have you begun to recanted again and begun repenting again?

That would be good.

does not justify a sinner. Only the Blood and finished works of Christ Alone can justify a sinner.

I rely solely on the person of Christ and his finished works. You rely on what you do to find assurance and try to merit salvation. Didn't Paul when he was Saul thought this way as well? Wasn't Saul one of the greatest Pharisees, and having a legalistic Salvation which is no Gospel, but Law. And no sinner who is under the curse of the Law can be justified though the Law.

But it's ironic that when Saul was converted by Christ, he preached the very thing he was prosecuting Christians for; he killed, tortured them. Now he preaches the Gospel as a free gift promise apart from works of the Law.​

No more repeat responses.

The mistake I see you doing is you are conflating Justification & Sanctification into one,​

Now you're addressing the topic. True. They are one and the same work of Jesus Christ, at the same time complete. It also includes being saved, washed, baptized, and circumcised by tHis Spirit.

Do you have any corrections for the argument I make from the Scriptures?

which then turns Gospel into Law and putting people back under the curse of the Law.​

No more repeat responses.

Justification & Sanctification are distinct from each other.​

Saying something else of your own, is not a proof nor disproof of anything.

 

[Arial]

On the cross, He finished fulfilling His own law, by dying on a cross without sinning, knowing any sin, nor having any sin imputed and judged to Him.

I am amazed how many talk like they know everything and then say things like the above. It shows you have no idea what Jesus did on the cross or why He did it---therefore you do not know Jesus and your faith cannot possibly be in His person and work.

Dying on the cross is not fulfilling the law. There is nothing in the law that says we must be sinless and then die on a cross, in order to be saved. And if He was without sin, and that was all there was to the story, He would not have died or been under the curse of the law.

That being the case, why did He have to die on the cross?

I will give you a clue.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

2 Cor 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Col 2:13-15 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

 

[Ladodgers6]

That's because many skip step 1 for the promise of forgiveness and salvation from sinning. And so, I must often preach the gospel of repentance unto salvation, in order to keep step 1 in it's proper place.

The gospel of forgiveness and salvation with sinning may be common, but is not all dominant. At least not yet. When the Lord returns, then His repented saints will be taken out of the way on earth, and into the air, to leave the righteous by their own faith alone all dominant on earth...

The first step is not us repenting Ghada, but Christ! You keep looking inward for the answers when the inside of us is the problem, right? We must look outward (Extra Nos) to Christ, his Cross and his finished works. Because it's his works that we receive through Faith Alone apart from works of the Law. He is the one who came to & did fulfill the Covenant of Redemption not by what we do or will do, but, by his blood and finished works. And this is received solely by Faith Alone! This is what you are missing and need to understand.

Our Faith and Repentance were purchased by his blood. These are the fruits of being justified by Christ through Faith Alone! From this flows our good works and repentance. But to suggest that justification of a sinner or a believer is based on their repentance is a works-righteousness that is called: Legalism. Paul is adamant that no flesh (fallen flesh) can be justified through the Law. Because they are under the curse of it.​

 

[Ladodgers6]

Do you not repeatedly say that you are sinner?

You are not familiar with these, correct? It's called, "Simul Iustus et Peccator". And yes I am a sinner, a sinner who has been justified before a Holy God because of Christ and his finished works. You want to boast about what do, I rather boast in the Lord.

Who does Paul say in Romans does God justify? It is the godly man or the ungodly? But you do not know how this is possible? Because works of Christ is not enough, and only by the works of sinful believers can get a final justification through their merits. No matter how you slice it or dress it up, it's legalism, not Gospel; Absolutely Free Grace with no strings attached. This is how God can justify the ungodly!

1 Cor. 1:30 And because of hime you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 so that, as it is written, “Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord.”​

 

[Ghada]

who believe in salvation through faith alone, in Christ alone, are unrepentant sinners?

There is no such thing as faith alone in Christ alone.

Faith alone is dead, and Christ alone is life.

One's own faith alone is theirs alone, not the faith of Jesus.

One's own faith alone is their own will alone.

Until we crucify our own will and faith alone, we still have our own life alone without Christ and God.

This is proven by the testimony of everyone trusting in their own faith alone: They are still sinners against Christ, that know they will continue to sin against the Son and the Father.

And so, by their own faith alone, they do not believe in always doing the righteousness of God: Their faith alone is unbelieve toward God.

The sinner's faith is the will to sin.

There cannot be any sinner's own faith alone with Christ, because there is no sin with Christ, not with Jesus Christ.

Sinners living by their own faith alone to sin again, is with a sinner's own Christ alone.

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

The first and oldest temptation of man, is to live by their own faith alone on earth, and not believe God's warning that the soul dies to Christ by sin and transgression.

Gen 2:17
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Gen 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: {3:5} For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

The gods of this earth have their faith and power of will to live their own life alone. It is the independent free will of man, both for good and evil, that ends in the grave.

 

[Arial]

There is no such thing as faith alone in Christ alone.

You will find very few, if any, true Christians, who ever say faith is alone. You evidently do not understand the doctrine, Christ alone, through faith alone. Until you do, you will continue to present these people you accuse, and stand in judgment of, of things they do not even believe, and do not claim.

So this is the doctrine. After you have been told, you have no more excuse, and display unrepentance.

Faith alone does NOT mean that a person is not required to be obedient to God.

It means that faith is the only saving factor. The obedience is the fruit of that faith---just as a branch in a vine produces the fruit of that vine. Without being in the vine, it will produce no fruit. If there is no fruit of obedience, it is not in the vine. In the analogy, or parable, (for Jesus did give it as a parable) Jesus is the Vine. The branches are people who are in Him through faith. "By grace (God owes no one anything, so all He does for fallen, sinful, humanity, is grace)you have been saved, THROUGH faith, and that is not of yourself, it is a GIFT of God, that no man may BOAST." (Eph 2)

Christ alone means that His person and His work of redemption, (His perfect righteousness, His death on the cross as a substitute for sinful man, taking upon Himself the just punishment for sin; His resurrection defeating the power of sin to condemn those He dies for; His ascension a ratification of the New Covenant and proof of the acceptance of His sacrifice for all God is giving Him through faith)is the only means to the Father and eternal life in His kingdom. And this is what the faith must be in.

When you put those two things together it is stated as faith alone, in Christ alone.

There is nothing in there that even suggests it is a license to sin. Nothing in there that suggests it does not involve repentance.

Yet the fact remains, that eschatologically, our redemption has not reached its consummation, and will not until Christ returns. Scripture makes that clear. And it also makes clear that those in Christ through faith are sealed in Him for that day. So, what does that mean?

Even though those in Christ through faith are no longer under condemnation, we still live in this fallen world that is under the influence of the devil, still have our flesh and it's sometimes sinful desires, therefore, we will sometimes still commit a sin. We are not yet made perfect. The difference in the before we were in Christ through faith, and the after we were in Christ through faith, is that because the righteousness of the one we have been grafted into (the Vine)is now counted as ours, (faith in Christ has justified us before God) these sins cannot again condemn us, cannot separate us from Christ, and not even death can separate us from Him. When He returns, our bodies will be resurrected, just as His was. That is how close and unbreakable the union is.

We no more sanctify (increase in personal righteousness throughout our life) ourself now, than we did before we were in Christ. It is the Holy Spirit in us who does this. He does this through His written word, where we learn what pleases God, submit to it. Not to gain salvation, but because we love our Father, just as He loves us. So when we do stumble, and we recognize it for what it is, there is always repentance, and a seeking of His grace to remove that sin from us, in forgiveness, but also in putting that sin to death.

 

[Ghada]

The first step is not us repenting Ghada, but Christ!​

True. The first step to repentance is Christ convicting sinners of their sin.

1Jo 4:10
Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

Beginning with Adam, He makes His first step toward transgressors by conviction of sin, and we make our first step toward Him by confession with repentance of sin.

1Jo 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.

Transgressors can only love God by repentance, through His conviction and love of His Spirit.

2 Cor 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:
Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Them that repent not from their sinning, have no love nor faith toward God given by His Spirit, but onlly hardness of heart toward Jesus Christ:

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Them that harden against reproof to continue their transgressions, don't take the necessary step of repentance to come to the light.

You keep looking inward for the answers​

Them that repent for Jesus' sake, now have His faith and Spirit within to believe and obey. Them that repent not, only have lust and darkness within, and have no answer for their unrepentance.

When our answer without is repentance from dead works, His answer within is forgiveness, mercy, and grace through His faith to sin not.

Having faith alone is the unrepented sinner's own answer to God, that they will be justified in their ungodliness, with no need to repent for His salvation.

when the inside of us is the problem, right?​

True. The impenitent sinner still has his own lust within, that kills the soul, life, and faith toward God.

They reject the answer of Jesus Christ to repent from the problem of sinning.

We must look outward (Extra Nos) to Christ, his Cross and his finished works.​

True. Them that hear the word of truth, and look at their outward sins and trespasses to repent, receive His finishing work of cleansing and purging from lust sins of the world.

Rom 11:27
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

Jhn 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world

1Jo 3:8
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1Jo 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

Heb 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

His good work of salvation, circumcsion, and sanctification from lust of the world, is finished whole and complete.

The hardened that repent not of this sins, have no promised covenant of salvation from their sins.

Psa 95:8
Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the day of temptation in the wilderness: When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.

Because it's his works that we receive through Faith Alone apart from works of the Law.​

Nothing is recieved through faith alone, except for more lusting and sinning unto death.

Which is why we have this testimony from unrepented sinners: By their faith alone, they shall sin again and again and again unto death.

Our Faith and Repentance were purchased by his blood.​

Now we have faith with repentance preached, which is the gospel of faith with good works by repentance.

It opposes a gospel of having faith alone, apart from any repentance and good works..

Else faith alone is not alone, or repentance is not repentance, and works are not works.

From this flows our good works and repentance.​

Not from any faith alone, that only stands alone apart from repentance and good works.

When anyone has faith with good works of repentance, then they have no faith alone, since their faith is no more alone.

There is no repentance by faith alone, else faith alone is repented of by good works with faith.

Having faith with good works and repentance, is not having faith alone, and so has not any justification, that is only by faith alone.

A person can have faith alone, or faith with works, not both. And so we we can be justified by our faith alone, or by our faith with good works of repentance, not both.

The Bible preaches against having faith alone with lip-service to good works.

Anyone that has faith alone preaching good works of repentance by faith, give lip service to faith alone, because they are not living by any faith alone.

Any justification by faith alone is taken away, if faith is ever with repentance and good works. To have and keep one's faith alone, one must repent of going any good works by repentance.

That is them that declare by their own faith alone, that they shall not repent, and surely shall continue their unrighteous trasngressions against God.

But to suggest that justification of a sinner or a believer is based on their repentance is a works-righteousness that is called: Legalism.​

To preach that any sinner is a justified believer without repentance, is a righteousness by one's own faith alone without works, called filthy righteousness of man with dead faith alone.

1 John

{3:7} Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous
The Scripture preaches righteousness of works, and is called fulfilling the law of righteousness by faith.

Rom 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Transgressors that despise the law they transgress, reject being lawfully righteous with God and His Christ.

They mind the law of sin and death, and hate the law of life in the Spirit.

Paul is adamant that no flesh (fallen flesh) can be justified through the Law. Because they are under the curse of it.​

All transgressors are cursed by the law of Christ.

1 Cor 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Whether seeking the righteousness of the law without the faith of Jesus, or seeking righteousness without the law of Christ: both are cursed dead works and faith alone.

Neither the unrighteous without faith, nor the unrighteous by works, shall inherit the kingdom of God. Their dead faith and works perish in the grave.

 

[Ladodgers6]

True. The first step to repentance is Christ convicting sinners of their sin.

Finally we are getting somewhere. And it's the Law that condemns sinners; which is why we must preached Law & Gospel together. For what reason would any sinner think they need a Savior? Jesus did not come to judge but to serve, and give the free gift of salvation to all those to receive it and believe. He saves them not because they repent but because their believe and trust in the Promise of God! Then from being justified through Faith Alone, they repent and follow Christ. Because the separation caused by sin and the curse has been removed and can now live to God.​

 

[Ghada]

So, you believe in a Legalistic Salvation which is a delusion and a fools errand.

Keeping the commandments of the Lord is not foolish.

2Pe 3:1
This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

The children of disobedience scoff at minding the Father's rules.

I see that you are upping the ante in competition for the worst of the ungodly, by mocking the godly and lawful.

Jde 1:14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Where sinners "by doing good works or by obeying the law, a person earns and merits salvation."

Sinners can't be justified by doing good and obeying the law, else they wouldn't be unjustified evil doers and transgressors.

The lawless also scoff at keeping the law.

This is not Gospel but Law,

Rev 14:12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The gospel of repentance to keep the law of Christ, certainly is not the gospel of unrighteous sinners and transgressors. Especially not the with the evil report of scoffing at doers of His law.

and placing people back under the Law to redeem themselves.

Rom 2:12For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

All people are under the judgment of the law of God and Christ, whether they like it or not. If people want to act like they are without law of Christ, then they can do so until the grave. Meanwhile they are still condemned as transgressors without acknowledging the law at all.

People can escape the law of man by hiding, but not the law of Christ by righteous judgment at the end.

Psalms{119:113} I hate [vain] thoughts and abhor lying: but thy law do I love.

This was one of the major debates of the Reformation.

People have their debate sides, which is fine in it's own way. However, there is no side of debate with Christ.

Either people repent to believe and do His word, or they don't.

All debates end in the grave.

My advice you can get it or leave it.

Finally. The usual frustration with disagreement, by demanding all such disagreement end. Which of course would happen, if they just stop coming back for more...

I see it often, particularly with them that trust in the own faith and doctrine alone to justify themselves. Agreement by others is therefore almost necessary in order to keep the conscience at bay. And so consistent disagreement, even worse right correction, is hated and cannot be stood for very long.

It's nothing new, but as old as Cain. He was the first truster in his own faith alone. He also had a talk with righteous Abel to agree with him, but when that didn't work, rather than just go his own way, he wanted to have Abel shut up.

Read up on why this debate happened, and learn both sides of the debate.

I'm already learning enough from your side. The more I hear of it, the more I reject and rebuke it.

Eze 3:8
Behold, I have made thy face strong against their faces, and thy forehead strong against their foreheads. As an adamant harder than flint have I made thy forehead: fear them not, neither be dismayed at their looks, though they be a rebellious house.


That would be a house without law, and mockers of houses with law, especially the righteous Father's.

Leave your bias glasses out of it.

Not happening. I don't take off my glasses for Bible reading and teaching, to see what others are arguing. I keep them on for close inspection in light of Scripture of truth.



Like Diogenes of old Athens, that kept his candle bright to search for honest men in Athens. I keep my Bible glasses on tight to search for honest teachers of Scripture.

Mat 5:15
Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.

 

[Ghada]

The Gospel is an announcement of what God has already accomplished in his Son for his people.

We see that having faith alone, is only agreeing with what has happened, and calling oneself righteous for not disagreeing. While of course it's right to agree with what's right, but is certainly doesn't make anyone rightous.

Justifying oneself by hearing the truth and agreeing with it, is just hearers only getting all righteous about there agreement alone.

But being hearers only, they don't want to hear what God says to do about it.

Rom 2:13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

James{1:22} But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

God's gospel is the good news of being forgiven and justified with Him, if any man repents of His trasngressions for Jesus' sake.

The Son has already defeated Sin, Death, Satan

True. Once again, that's the good news of what Jesus Christ has done with the Father alone. Agreeing with it is certainly right, and better than disagreeing, but it doesn't make anyone righteous because of it.

There are hearers only that agree with the gospel record, but then there are doers of the word, that do what the gospel commands because of it:

Acts{17:30} And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Acts 3:19Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

2 Cor 7:10For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

And besides, many hearers only don't really agree with all the report of Scripture, but only those things they find agreeable to their own faith alone. They certainly don't agree that no man is justified with Christ by any man's own faith alone, but by the works of faith through Jesus Christ.

IN fact, they are downright hostile to that true judgment of works. The love to talk about what Jesus has done by the Spirit on earth, and they agree it is good most vehemently, but they don't want what they themselves are now doing on earth, to get anywhere near their justification by agreement only.

and has redeemed us with his blood and finished works.

And so, we see here once again, the redempotion by agreement only. As though by agreeing One man did good, His righteousness justification now belongs to all men that do evil, so long as they agree what He did was good.

The devils also agree Jesus Christ did those works with the Father, but they certainly don't repent because of it.

What was the last words of Jesus on the Cross?

What did he finish?

​

No repeats

 

[Ladodgers6]

Keeping the commandments of the Lord is not foolish.

It is for sinner looking to redeem themselves by their own works. The Law is a ministry of death for sinners seeking salvation. The Law if preached correctly will drive sinners to the only place for Redemption; namely Jesus Christ and his finished works!

There is no intrinsic goodness or righteousness in sinners. Which is why they need a Redeemer. We need someone from the outside to save us. Because the inside is the problem.​

 

[Ghada]

Finally we are getting somewhere. And it's the Law that condemns sinners; which is why we must preached Law & Gospel together.​

True. The gospel is the good news of keeping the law of Christ righteously first within and also without.

We repent of our unrighteous deeds, and the blood and Spirit of the Lamb was us inwardly clean, that our outward righteousness will be of God with a pure heart.

Our righteousness in Christ Jesus is greater than Pharisees without outward obedience only.

Jesus did not come to judge but to serve,​

True. As the Lamb of God prepared for the slaughter.

He comes again as the Judge of all the earth, and the Lamb of wrath for them that repent not.

and give the free gift of salvation to all those to receive it and believe.​

The only faith sinners recieve by hearing without repentance, is their own alone to justify themselves in their sins and trespasses.

Not the faith of Jesus that cleanse the heart and the life blameless.

The faith of sinners to transgress God's law more, is unbelief and dead to God.

2Ti 2:15Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

The word of them that preach more sinning, eats as a cancer upon the soul of them that recieve it. It's a sure way for committed sinners to not be left alone in their sins and trespasses.

He saves them not because they repent but because their believe and trust in the Promise of God!​

2Ti 2:14Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

Whether because, by, or with, people can play word games all they want, but without repentance from all our sinning, God's promise of salvation from sins is not for them that don't want to be delivered.

Then from being justified through Faith Alone, they repent and follow Christ.​

So far, the only repenting I've heard from sinners preach salvation unto repentance, is only gradual and in part at best. Some don't preach any repentance at all.

Ezek 18:31Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Jerem 3:10And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

Half-hearted repentance according to one's own faith and will, was offered first by Cain and rejected by the Lord. It's the same today.

Num 15:31Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

God's gospel promise of Jesus Christ's deliverance from breaking His commandments, is only given to them that repent of doing so for Jesus' sake.

The better homes and garden religious version of man's own lame repentance, is not the pure religion of Jesus Christ.

Because the separation caused by sin and the curse has been removed and can now live to God.​

True. To them that repent of their own sinning for Jesus' sake.

The faith of half-hearted repenters to sin some more and more, is not the faith of Jesus to sin not.

Especially not the faith of them talking repentance, while seeking to be worst of sinners for ungodliest of reputations.

Their repentance must be from living godly at all, rather than repenting from ungodliness to always live righteously and holily in Christ Jesus.

Tit 2:11For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

 

[Ghada]

It shows you have no idea what Jesus did on the cross

What He didn't do was sin on the cross.

or why He did it---

Did what? Sin? Are you asking why Jesus sinner, or why He submitted to the unjust crucifiers?

Dying on the cross is not fulfilling the law.

Jesus fulfilled the law by not transgressing the law in life, including while on the cross unto death.

Dying on the cross is not fulfilling the law.

No. Only them crucifying guilty transgressors worthy of death, fulfill the law.

Deu 21:22And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

And so, we see that Jesus was not hanged and cursed of God under the law, because He was buried contrary to the law on the same day.

There is nothing in the law that says we must be sinless

I don't know of any law, that says people can transgress it.

and then die on a cross, in order to be saved.

The law doesn't say someone must be executed by crucifixion. The law only forbids burial the same day.

And if He was without sin,

If?

By this you mean you are accusing Jesus of sinning? On the cross?

1Pe 2:21
For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth. Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

This specifically confirms He did no sin on the cross. Do you now want Jesus Himself to have sinned, so that you can walk in His sinful steps, even as you do with other sinners?

That would be the old "Everybody's doing it" excuse on steroids.

and if he was without sin, and that was all there was to the story, He would not have died or been under the curse of the law.

Either you drastically rephrase this, or you are accusing Jesus of sinning, and agreeing with the unjust wicked, that He was a blasphemer of God, cursed Himself under the law, and was worthy of death:

Mar 14:64Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

And the doctrinal justification for it (aside from a truly cursed gospel message of Jesus Christ being a cursed blasphemer), is that old serpent's lie against Christ, that He now makes men's flesh and blood is with lust and sin in it.

As well agreeing with antichrist doctrine, that Jesus Christ did not come in the natural flesh of men and women, but in another kind of immortal super-flesh, like the old pagan demigods born of the gods.

And finally saying that He only died on the cross, by sinning and blaspheming and corrupting His own flesh and blood.

I have yet to see this kind of ditch dug so deep, just to justify one's own continued unrepented sins and transgressions.

Rev 2:24But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, that they speak;

Is this why you use an old Moabite idol for your handle? You do know that the lion-like men of Moab were not heroes of the faith of Abraham, but enemies of Israel and the true God. Right?

Is that why you appear to preach the true Christ was also a sinner like them? And if so even worse, because they never named the God of Israel as their own, while blaspheming Him and His people.

That being the case,

I.e. if Jesus really didn't sin and was not a sinner?

why did He have to die on the cross?

To ask this, is to ask why He had to rise again.

Rom 4:25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

He voluntarily died by our offences against Him, that He might rise again to justify any and all men, that repent of sins and offences against Him.

He certainly didn't have to die the cursed death of guilty blasphemers and murderers, since He was neither a sinner nor blasphemer.

Neither the Son nor the Father broke His law and slew the innocent blood, whether by suicide or unjust execution.

Deu 19:9If thou shalt keep all these commandments to do them, which I command thee this day, to love the LORD thy God, and to walk ever in his ways; then shalt thou add three cities more for thee, beside these three;

That innocent blood be not shed in thy land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance, and so blood be upon thee.

All Israel did not come under condemnation, by the Father shedding His own dear Son's innocent blood. All the children of Israel came under condemnation at the cross, for rejecting and forsaking Him, and shedding His innocent blood.

And all men that sin, first Jews then Gentiles, are likewise judged guilty at His cross, along with the wicked hands doing the deed.

I will give you a clue.
1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,

1 Peter 2:24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

2 Cor 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Col 2:13-15 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

By our transgressions we separate ourselves from Christ, and by our transgressions we killed Him in the flesh, and by transgressions after His resurrection, the sinners and trespassers crucify Him to themselves afresh.

The only part the Father and the Son had in His own unjust execution as a falsely accused sinful blasphemer, what the Father willing Him to submit to their wicked hands and deeds, and the Son obediently doing so as the Lamb meekly to the slaughter.

Neither the Father sinned by filicide, nor the Son by suicide. Nor did the Son blaspheme His Father, neither did the Father will Him too.

 

[Arial]

What He didn't do was sin on the cross.

No believer has or would say such a thing, so why bring it up?
I am not asking either of those things. I am asking what you think He accomplished on the cross. Have you never wondered or thought about it before? Why does the question seem so alien to you?

Jesus fulfilled the law by not transgressing the law in life, including while on the cross unto death.

Going to the cross was a part of His perfect obedience, not a part of the Law. On the cross He was substituting His own life for the life of those who would believe in His person and His work. He bore the sins of many. To bear means to take the penalty, AS THOUGH He was the sinner. Our sins imputed to Him. His righteousness in turn, imputed to the believer---those united with Him through faith. We are no more ACTUALLY perfectly righteous, any more than He was ACTUALLY a sinner. See the substitution and the imputation. See why He was resurrected, and why the believer some day will be too?

No. Only them crucifying guilty transgressors worthy of death, fulfill the law.

What??

Deu 21:22And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

And so, we see that Jesus was not hanged and cursed of God under the law, because He was buried contrary to the law on the same day.

The Law that you quote says they should be buried on the same day. And Peter quotes this portion of that Law, "cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree" in direct reference to Christ on the cross. It is the Law that curses us. Not because the Law is bad. It is holy, and righteous, and good. We are cursed under the Law because we break the Law and bring about the curses incurred for breaking it. Peter is using this illustration to say that Jesus, on the cross, broke that curse by taking the penalty for sin for many, just as He broke the power of sin to condemn those in Him through faith.

Dying on the cross is not fulfilling the law. There is nothing in the law that says we must be sinless and then die on a cross, in order to be saved. And if He was without sin, and that was all there was to the story, He would not have died or been under the curse of the law.

The above is my full two sentences that you quoted in pieces out of their context, in order to be able to make your unrelated arguments. That went as follows:

I don't know of any law, that says people can transgress it.

The law doesn't say someone must be executed by crucifixion. The law only forbids burial the same day.

Complete non-sequitur. And the law says they must be buried the same day.

If?

By this you mean you are accusing Jesus of sinning? On the cross?

And here you do it again. Remove one word from its context and act like I was questioning His sinlessness, when I had already stated He was without sin. Here is the full sentence that leads to a question:

And if He was without sin, and that was all there was to the story, He would not have died or been under the curse of the law.

That being the case, why did He have to die on the cross?

To which you replied:

Either you drastically rephrase this, or you are accusing Jesus of sinning, and agreeing with the unjust wicked, that He was a blasphemer of God, cursed Himself under the law, and was worthy of death:

I agree, it could be worded better. Here, will this work better for you? If Jesus was without sin, and He was, and that was all there was to the story, there would be no reason for Him to die as though He, like us, was under the curse of the Law. So. what was His purpose of dying on the cross? What did He do in that death that needed to be done?

To ask this, is to ask why He had to rise again.

No it isn't. That question would be no why did He have to rise again, but why did He rise again?

Rom 4:25Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

He voluntarily died by our offences against Him, that He might rise again to justify any and all men, that repent of sins and offences against Him.

He was raised again FOR our justification. But we are justified through faith in His person and work. Romans 5:1 Therefore since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Nothing there about the words you have added. Repentance of sins and offences against Him.

Gal 2:16 Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

And the doctrinal justification for it (aside from a truly cursed gospel message of Jesus Christ being a cursed blasphemer), is that old serpent's lie against Christ, that He now makes men's flesh and blood is with lust and sin in it.

As well agreeing with antichrist doctrine, that Jesus Christ did not come in the natural flesh of men and women, but in another kind of immortal super-flesh, like the old pagan demigods born of the gods.

And finally saying that He only died on the cross, by sinning and blaspheming and corrupting His own flesh and blood.

I have yet to see this kind of ditch dug so deep, just to justify one's own continued unrepented sins and transgressions.

Are you really accusing me of saying those things?! Those words came out of you, not me. Do you just like to be furious and damn people or what? You have to make up such atrocious lies so you can do so? I have been trying to be gentle and patient, but you know it gets really difficult when someone is always throwing fiery darts like that at them. How would you feel if I spoke to you that way and accused you of saying things you never said and never would say? Would you think there was something wrong with me? Would you think I was expressing brotherly love or that I had even an ounce of repentance in me for misrepresenting you in such a horrific way?

He certainly didn't have to die the cursed death of guilty blasphemers and murderers, since He was neither a sinner nor blasphemer.

He certainly did die that KIND OF death though. The fact that He was not a sinner or blasphemer is the only reason He qualified to substitute Himself in the sinners place.

All Israel did not come under condemnation, by the Father shedding His own dear Son's innocent blood. All the children of Israel came under condemnation at the cross, for rejecting and forsaking Him, and shedding His innocent blood.

All Israel and all mankind has been under the condemnation of God since He threw Adam and Eve out of the garden for committing treason against their King and our King. And Israel as a nation was under His condemnation and judgement long before Christ even came. When they rejected their Messiah, had Him killed, and continued offering animal sacrifices in the temple, judgment fell in the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem, and a hardening of their hearts in unbelief, until the specified time when He will remove the hardening.

By our transgressions we separate ourselves from Christ, and by our transgressions we killed Him in the flesh, and by transgressions after His resurrection, the sinners and trespassers crucify Him to themselves afresh.

The only part the Father and the Son had in His own unjust execution as a falsely accused sinful blasphemer, what the Father willing Him to submit to their wicked hands and deeds, and the Son obediently doing so as the Lamb meekly to the slaughter.

Those scriptures I gave you tell us why Jesus had to die on the cross and what He accomplished in doing so. But you still have not answered that question. So, you do not know the answer. At least you are looking in the right place, and I pray with all sincereness, Eph 3:14-21 For this reason I bend my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name,, that He would grant you according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner self, so that Christ may dwell in your heart through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled to all the fullness of God. I pray He would give you understanding.

 

[makesends]

Isn't Christ's works more than sufficient to redeem the ungodly? Why keep focusing on the Law to redeem sinners? This ship has sailed when it was breached by One Man's Act of disobedience, thus bringing condemnation on all mankind. All sinners are under the curse of the law, why do you think that is? Paul says in Galatians 3, unless you keep all things written in the book of the Law; meaning without a single shred of sin, only the curse abides there.

The Law exposes this sinful condition and should bring terror for it. Because no sinner will be justified through the Law, because of sin. There's no escape from this condition before the Law or trying to obtain righteousness and justification through works. Therefore, the only place a sinner can now find redemption and salvation is in Christ Alone through Faith Alone apart from works of the Law. You have to know the distinction between Law & Gospel in relation to Justification by Faith Alone. This is how a sinner is justified before God. Once they believe and trust in him who justifies the ungodly, then they will obey and follow God, because the alienation because of sin, has been removed by the blood and works of Christ to reconcile us to God, who is no longer a judge by a loving Father.

How can anyone want to live to God, when first of they are hostile and enemies of God? The Law does not brings peace, but threats, understand? The Gospel brings good news, peace of conscience through a Free Gift; namely Christ and his finished works. We do not add nor substract from the works of Christ to do so, because adding or substracting from it is legalism and will turn Gospel into Law or Law into Gospel which is contrary to the Gospel that Paul preached, which is no gospel at all.

I believe you are mingling and conflating Law & Gospel into one which distorts it with Legalism. Focusing on human merits instead of Christ's. Thinking that man could to do what Christ could not. Or that salvation lies in the Law. I also thought that I could achieve salvation through my own merits, like keeping score, trying to out do my bad deeds like a scoreboard, but that is a fools errand. Once the relationship is restored between the sinner & God. We want to live to God. Because of what He did in Christ for the ungodly who believe apart from works. It's about trusting in God and his word; his Promise what he Promised he said he will do! Not what we will do, because we will never do or cannot do because of our sin.​

I think @Ghada is conflating mere law, or rather, the breaking of it, with sin. Ghada discounts 'original sin' in the unbeliever, and accounts mere failure to comply with the law, as what needs to be changed. No notion of the death in which the unregenerate walk about the planet.

 

[makesends]

Arial said:
And if He was without sin,

If?

By this you mean you are accusing Jesus of sinning? On the cross?

This is representative of your methods of discussion and even, I think, your hermeneutic. You blind yourself so thoroughly that everything else must fall to your narrative.

Where @Arial uses the word, "if", here, as is a common use, it means, "since". "And [since] he was was without sin..."

IF you yourself KNOW very well how to use propositional logic in your speaking, but here you pretend not to, so that you can accuse another believer, you are a hypocrite: It's either you pretend not to, or you jumped to the conclusion that you expressed —either way it is a result of your blinding yourself, and that, out of antagonism.

Read the tone of your posts —contentious, antagonistic, accusatory, derogatory. And may God have mercy on me too, for not living up to my own standard.

 

[Ghada]

You will find very few, if any, true Christians, who ever say faith is alone.

This is true. Very few disobedient Christians preach cold faith alone, where there is never any need of repentance nor works, to justify their faith as being 'salvific'.

Most are the lukewarm, that later demand some repentance and works to show their faith is 'acceptably' salvific to other double hearted repenters.

You evidently do not understand the doctrine, Christ alone, through faith alone.

John{8:29} And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Jesus Christ is never alone. He was with God in the beginning, and with the Father on earth without sin, including on the cross:

Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth. Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

And he is not alone now sitting at the right hand of the Father, and forever with God on the new earth.

There is no Christ alone, other than a false Christ chosen by faith alone. A Christ alone is a false Christ of one's own, through one's own faith alone: A false Christ alone by a dead faith alone.

A Christ of one's own alone, most apropriately preached by one's own faith alone. And there be many such Christ's of one's own faith alone, even as the gods of the disobedient children of Judah:

Jerem 2:28But where are thy gods that thou hast made thee? let them arise, if they can save thee in the time of thy trouble: for according to the number of thy cities are thy gods, O Judah.

As noted above, the least common is the cold Christ with no repentance nor works better than before. The most common is the lukewarm Christ chosen by with at least some religion to show for.

The former is true faith alone justification, and the latter is a sort of hybrid faith alone, that is 'not really alone'.

The former is the true Christ alone of faith alone, and the latter is a hybrid Christ of faith alone, that is 'not alone'.

In any case, any Christ alone by faith alone is apropriately preached, Afterall, what other Christ can one have by one's own faith alone, but a Christ alone?

Certainly not the only true Christ, Jesus, who is never alone apart from the Father, because His faith is never alone apart from the Father's works.

John{8:29} And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

So with sons of God having the faith of Jesus, never apart from the Son nor the Father, nor apart from doing the well-pleasing works of Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

So this is the doctrine. After you have been told, you have no more excuse, and display unrepentance.

I don't deny there is a faith alone, nor a Christ alone, but only agree with the Lord Jesus, that they are dead and false. And no better than devils that also only believe there is one God, and agree with the record of Jesus Christ's good workds on earth, yet repent not.

And those devils likewised named Him as the true Christ as well...

Faith alone does NOT mean that a person is not required to be obedient to God.

Then this is how the faith alone of half-hearted repenters does not remain alone, because they choose a lukewarm Christ for themselves, that demands at least some show of faith.

The cold Christ of true faith alone, demands no such fruit-show. (Which I agree with Jesus is better than the fruit-for-show lukewarm churches of faith alone, that is not really alone...)

It means that faith is the only saving factor.

This is the faith alone shared by the urnepentant, and the sort of repented. In the beginning, the middle, and in the end, having their own faith alone in their own Christ alone, is the only justification they need to believe they are surely heaven-bound.

Even the produce demanded for show of 'salvific' faith alone(which is then the not alone part), is just for a show of outward church discipline.

Afterall, if any person only believes they are saved by their own Christ, then who's to argue differently? Even I don't argue with that kind of faith alone.

I only argue it is not the faith of Jesus Christ, but of another kind of Christ alone.

The obedience is the fruit of that faith--

Right that hybrid faith alone, that is not really alone.

Not the truly cold faith alone, that is in truth always alone, and always apart from any need of repentance unto obedience.

-just as a branch in a vine produces the fruit of that vine. Without being in the vine, it will produce no fruit. If there is no fruit of obedience, it is not in the vine.

Right, more of that lukewarm faith alone with lukewarm branches of a lukewarm Christ, that demands at least some kind of budding fruit for show on his branches.

"By grace (God owes no one anything, so all He does for fallen, sinful, humanity, is grace)you have been saved, THROUGH faith

You mean through faith alone, right? Or, do you now forsake any such thing as being saved by faith alone? Or, do you simply get doctrinally disoriented, when at a crescendo of joyous fine speech?

Rom 16:18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

, and that is not of yourself, it is a GIFT of God, that no man may BOAST." (Eph 2)

One's own faith alone certainly is of themselves. In James 2, the verse could be just as accurately translated:

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being of oneself. It more clearly confirms Eph 2 and James 2 rebuke the faith of oneself alone.

Which is borne out by all the accompanying declarations of no need to repent of works to have faith alone, and through all such faith of one's own alone, they shall surely sin again and again...

But, once again, the gift of the faith of Jesus is never alone, because Jesus Himself is never alone, nor is ever apart from doing the will of the Father. His faith is only given to them that repent of their own faith and works alone, for His sake.

Christ alone means that His person and His work of redemption,

Not Jesus Christ. Neither His person, nor His works were ever alone, but always with the Father.

Heb 1:3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person,

In fact, jesus Christ is so not alone, that there is no specific distinction between His person, and that of the Father.

Christ alone means that His person and His work of redemption,

But, I know what the euphemism means: only believing Jesus Christ is a real person, who did reall good works before, during, and after the cross.

The devils know that Person and His works too. The said as much loudly on earth, just as others do, yet repent not, or only half-heartedly at best.

(His perfect righteousness, His death on the cross as a substitute for sinful man,

This is Christianized religious speak. Jesus Christ did not substitute for anyone as a sinner. Not in the flesh nor on the cross.

Much less substituting as the greatest of sinners, for all sinners of the world.

No matter what that false apostle of faith alone, and chiefest of sinners may try to say. He only speaks for his own Christ alone, by his own faith alone, accompanied with his own ungodly life alone.

Talk about having the faith of oneself, boasting of one's own ungodly works...