Questioning the reformation!
- Thread starter donadams
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Sorry Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
No Christ revealed the entire truth to his apostolic church eph 4:5 Jude 1:3
The holy church found by Christ on Peter and the apostles have the duty to Guard the deposit of faith and to explain it faithfully.
Pope Agatho 7c
This Apostolic Church never turned from the way of truth nor held any kind of error. It is imperative that nothing of the truths which have been defined be lessened, nothing altered, nothing added, but that they be preserved intact in word and meaning. This is the true rule of faith.
Thanks
I agree, I just believe it's characterized by the empowering presence of God's Spirit like we see in the original first century Church
Not matters of dogma or faith but discipline and administration which is the human institution of the church and can be changed
My point was that when we look at the NT the defining, identifying mark of the first century Church is the empowering presence of God's Spirit. That is what defines and identifies believers as belonging to the Body of Christ. This is disturbingly absent (or at least seems to be) from many churches today whether Protestant, Orthodox, or Catholic (though not absent from all).
See, Gordon Fee's God's Empowering Presence
"Fee's book is the most comprehensive treatment available of Paul's understanding of the Holy Spirit, a topic that has rarely received sufficient attention in studies of Pauline theology. Fee's method is exemplary: he first analyzes Paul's statements about the Spirit, in each individual letter, and then moves to a synthesis of Paul's general pneumatology. The result is a book that is deeply exegetical, doing justice both to the particularity of Paul's writings and to the fundamental unity of his vision for the Spirit's role in the life of the Christian community. Most importantly, Fee emphasizes insistently that the Holy Spirit must be experienced as a living presence within the church. That message is both faithful to Paul and urgent for the community of faith in our time."--Richard B. Hays, professor of New Testament, Duke University Divinity School
Blessings
I don't know what you mean by "charismatic nuts" but I do know what we see the NT
That's no guarantee of God's empowering presence either
Don't like charismatic abuses and excesses either. But must be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is an identifying, defining life and power in the Spirit that defines the Church that seems largely absent today including the (real, authentic) exercise of the gifts of the Spirit
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All Important functions in the holy church are preceded by the “Veni Creator Spiritus!
COME, Holy Spirit, Creator blest,
and in our souls take up Thy rest;
come with Thy grace and heavenly aid to fill the hearts which Thou hast made.
Thou in Thy sevenfold gifts are known; Thou, finger of God's hand we own; Thou, promise of the Father, Thou Who dost the tongue with power imbue.
O comforter, to Thee we cry,
O heavenly gift of God Most High,
O fount of life and fire of love,
and sweet anointing from above.
Kindle our sense from above,
and make our hearts o'erflow with love; with patience firm and virtue high the weakness of our flesh supply.
Far from us drive the foe we dread,
and grant us Thy peace instead;
so shall we not, with Thee for guide,
turn from the path of life aside.
Oh, may Thy grace on us bestow
the Father and the Son to know;
and Thee, through endless times confessed, of both the eternal Spirit blest.
Now to the Father and the Son,
Who rose from death, be glory given, with Thou, O Holy Comforter,
henceforth by all in earth and heaven. Amen.
Gifts of the spirit!
Wisdom:
Understand:
Counsel:
Knowledge:
Piety:
Fear of the Lord:
Fortitude:
Thanks
Scripture declares the five Protestant Solas are false doctrine!
Only one verse that contradicts a sola is required to prove it “false doctrine”.
Faith alone: Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Christ alone: Christ alone: John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Grace alone: Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.
Scripture alone: Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Glory to God alone: Romans 2:10
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
All five sola’s are “false doctrine” and another Gospel having departed from the faith revealed by Jesus christ!
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Galatians 1:6
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Novelties:
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
Thanks
Only one verse that contradicts a sola is required to prove it “false doctrine”.
Faith alone: Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Christ alone: Christ alone: John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Grace alone: Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.
Scripture alone: Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Glory to God alone: Romans 2:10
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
All five sola’s are “false doctrine” and another Gospel having departed from the faith revealed by Jesus christ!
1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
Galatians 1:6
I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Novelties:
2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
Thanks
The Spirit has the role of leading us in truth (John 16:13), the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Torah (Ezekiel 36:26-27), the Torah is truth (Psalms 119:142), the sum of God's word is truth (Psalms 119:160), God's word became flesh (John 1:14) and Jesus embodied the truth by living in sinless obedience to the Torah (John 14:6). While the truth does not change, people can depart from the Church, from following truth, from following the Spirit, and even teach against following truth, in which case they need to repent and return to following the Spirit of truth. The Greek word "ekklesia" is translated as "church" and is used many times in the Septuagint to refer to Israel in the wilderness, so that is when the Church began and will always remain the Church.
Not us but the apostles
The HS leads the apostles into all truth and they must teach us!
Matt 28:19
Fortunately Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life! And not us!
Christians must be taught or instructed, according to the sense which the perpetual consent of the Catholic Church hath held and expressed!
Lk 1:4
Matt 28:19
Lk 10:16
Jn 20:21
Acts 8:31
Colossians 2:7
Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught…
Truth must be revealed by God thru Christ to His church (the apostles Jude 1:3) then must be proposed by the church, (Matt 28:19 gal 3:23) without error by the Holy Spirit! (Jn 16:13) one faith (eph 4:5) the faith delivered to the apostles (Jude 1:3)
The one true catholic and apostolic church established by Christ is infallible in its decree’s and absolute in its authority!
Where we say such it is automatically rejected but the same is assumed about the reformers until the fundamentalists rejected them and their errors!
The reformers were infallible and had absolute authority to accomplish the reformation !
[Edit by Mod. Reason: Off-topic, inflammatory]
Where we say such it is automatically rejected but the same is assumed about the reformers until the fundamentalists rejected them and their errors!
The reformers were infallible and had absolute authority to accomplish the reformation !
[Edit by Mod. Reason: Off-topic, inflammatory]
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Reformers defended the dogma’s of Mary the fundamentalists reject both the reformers and these dogma’s
Martin Luther
It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)
Note: an article of faith is required for salvation.
John Calvin
(On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)
[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called “first-born”; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107)
Under the word “brethren” the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3])
John Wesley
‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).
“I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary.” Zwingli
Martin Luther
It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)
Note: an article of faith is required for salvation.
John Calvin
(On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)
[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called “first-born”; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107)
Under the word “brethren” the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3])
John Wesley
‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).
“I esteem immensely the Mother of God, the ever chaste, immaculate Virgin Mary.” Zwingli
Scripture Verses that contradict the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!
Matt 5:14
Matt 13:11
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
Rom 10:15
1 cor 4:11
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
1 Jn 4:6
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3
How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15
And if “the Bible is the only authority” then there can be no authentic interpretation!
Their doctrine that the “Bible is the only authority” excludes them as an authority!
Matt 5:14
Matt 13:11
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
Rom 10:15
1 cor 4:11
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
1 Jn 4:6
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3
How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15
And if “the Bible is the only authority” then there can be no authentic interpretation!
Their doctrine that the “Bible is the only authority” excludes them as an authority!
