Questioning the reformation!

[3 Resurrections]

Focus.

Apply that content specifically to the Reformation

Of course. The Reformers were only carrying out Paul's directive to Timothy in 1 Timothy 5:19-20. They were bringing multiple witnesses in public rebuke for those who were committing sin by corrupting the scriptures.

No but the Barean church does!
They original bareans accepted the truth on the authority of Paul as an apostle of Jesus Christ, then later went to search the scripture, they claim you reject the authority of Christ in his apostles and search scripture first like all fundamentalists do who act from pride that leads to protesting rebellion.
Not including you btw.

I'm sorry, but I'm having difficulty following what you are trying to say here. It's a bit convoluted. Everyone in the body of Christ (not just the leaders of the church) has a scriptural directive to be a "watchdog" of sorts, to make sure that the leaders and our brethren are not straying from the truth. We are to be "able to admonish one another", as Paul said in Romans 15:14. "And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another."

The constant temptation for those in leadership of the church is to become heavy-handed authoritarian dictators in their own right. With the Reformation, the attempt was to get rid of this crushing authoritarian rule and back to Christ's original design for His disciples. Jesus told those disciples that the Gentiles loved to have dominion and exercise authority over others, but "It shall NOT be so among you; but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your servant." (Matthew 20:26). For the RCC before the Reformation, this was something they had long-since forgotten.

 

[donadams]

Hi I would offer. . the 15 century reformation that restored the government of God.. . the government of faith. . . the unseen work of God . It is a carbon copy of the 1st century reformation the Spirit of Christ taking away the governments of mankind as oral traditions of dying mankind .

Kings as fathers a hierarchy government of dying mankind. In 1 Samuel 8 the atheist Jew became jealous of the surrounding pagan nations and demanded a king . God said to Samuel its not you the temporal seen they do not refuse to obey but me the unseen King of Kings and Lord of lords.

God gave them over to do that which they should not desired until the time of the first century reformation.

The period of time kings in Israel used as a parable or the word figure same a parable the signified understanding. . the shadows that added nothing to salvation the ceremonial law or some call sacraments disappeared .

Hebrew 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Then the time of reformation was the time of Christ not Luther?

Do you accept oral tradition? Not mere human tradition but divine apostolic tradition, the words the apostles heard from the mouth of Christ as He established and taught His church for three years.

How can there be new churches? And new doctrine?

How can truth and the church both of divine origin be reformed by the tradition of men?

What authority did the so/called reformers have?

Thanks

 

[donadams]

Of course. The Reformers were only carrying out Paul's directive to Timothy in 1 Timothy 5:19-20. They were bringing multiple witnesses in public rebuke for those who were committing sin by corrupting the scriptures.

I'm sorry, but I'm having difficulty following what you are trying to say here. It's a bit convoluted. Everyone in the body of Christ (not just the leaders of the church) has a scriptural directive to be a "watchdog" of sorts, to make sure that the leaders and our brethren are not straying from the truth. We are to be "able to admonish one another", as Paul said in Romans 15:14. "And I myself also am persuaded of you, my brethren, that ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another."

The constant temptation for those in leadership of the church is to become heavy-handed authoritarian dictators in their own right. With the Reformation, the attempt was to get rid of this crushing authoritarian rule and back to Christ's original design for His disciples. Jesus told those disciples that the Gentiles loved to have dominion and exercise authority over others, but "It shall NOT be so among you; but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your servant." (Matthew 20:26). For the RCC before the Reformation, this was something they had long-since forgotten.

No cos the church is the kingdom and heresy is treason against the king who revealed the truth, the church has an authoritarian nature to defend and safeguard the truth and to condemn all errors!

To safeguard the “sacred deposit of faith” eph 4:5 Jude 1:3 against all error

Examples:

The Albigensian’s

Thanks

 

[3 Resurrections]

the church has an authoritarian nature to defend and safeguard the truth and to condemn all errors!

The church is composed of you and me and all the believers who are in Christ. WE ALL have the authority to defend and safeguard the truth.

 

[Josheb]

No cos the church is the kingdom

No, the Church is the temple (1 Cor. 3:16). God's kingdom is much bigger than the Church.

...and heresy is treason against the king

Well then treason against the King was just committed because His kingdom was limited to the Church, the Church misidentified and mislabeled. If the "church" from whence this was learned teaches that error, then it too has committed treason.

Unlike some here, I have no particular axe to grind with the RCC. They have some bad doctrines and practices and are, therefore, imperfect, but I do not mind if a CCAM member is Catholic and accept that as long as the individual confesses Christ as both Lord and Savior (potentially) have much more in common than apart. I know the RCC endeavors not to contradict scripture and considers God's word authoritative. Where that is true, they don't teach things contrary to correctly rendered scripture. On any occasion where there is a discrepancy between the two then God's word prevails and trumps all else. The RCC may have other authorities to which they appeal, but God's word is authoritative above all else even among the Magisterium, and even above Tradition.

1 Corinthians 3:16-17
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

The Church is the temple, not the whole of the Kingdom. Nowhere does scripture state, "the church is the kingdom," and that is just as true for Catholics as it is for Protestants (or the Orthodox).











Note to the lurkers: I am simply using the "logic" employed by the dissent against self-claims.
.

 

[Mr GLee]

Then the time of reformation was the time of Christ not Luther?

Do you accept oral tradition? Not mere human tradition but divine apostolic tradition, the words the apostles heard from the mouth of Christ as He established and taught His church for three years.

How can there be new churches? And new doctrine?

How can truth and the church both of divine origin be reformed by the tradition of men?

What authority did the so/called reformers have?

Thanks

You are making the church the source of truth inspired form earth. God's truth is inspired from above it comes down as rain (the gospel ). . . water of the word the pouring out of his unseen Holy Spiriton dying flesh

The 15th was a carbon copy of the first century different names for the fathers same law of dying mankind as oral I heard it through the fathers grapevine. . faithless (none not little ) no sola scriptura. God living abiding word to mankind not form dying mankind eathly inspired

Its not new churches as the bride or wife of Christ. Abel the first born again from above sent as a apostle. Cain under the influence of the father of lies was a serial murderer from that very beginning murdered Abel to silence the gospel.

Abel our brother in the lord his corrupted flesh blood like the blood of any saint cries out in hope of the promise new incorruptible bodies that will not age leading toward as end (annihilation) return to dust

The so called relied on all thing writen in the law and prophets (sola scriptura) same reforming authority we have today . . until the end of time under the Sun

 

[Mr GLee]

On what authority?

The church was taught by Christ three years in person so it naturally condemned the cola’s and those who invented them!

If the apostles " sent ones" with no other meaning added as messengers sent out that some translated as angel a word not coined until way after the original . Angel a fake word creating a ilusion. Messenger not highly venable ones puffed up ones.

How beautiful are their feet shod with the gospel (sola scriptura)

The idea of venerating dying mankind in a hope they will increase the faith to believe God is simply a lie from the bottomless pit

Every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.As two walking together strengthened by one the Father. . Yoked with Christ he makes our daily burden lighter as we pray. . . . . give us this day our daily bread of His will. . the storehouse of faith (his ) he gives us little called the golden measure (non literal) we walk by the unseen eternal not the temporal seen

The bible defines the words within . .not a legion of fathers that some call patron saints

1 Corinthians 3:1-8 King James Version And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?I have planted, Apollos watered; but God (alone) gave the increase.So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God(alone) that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

Another section that witnesses to the word "apostle" sent messenger is when God sets aside two apostles just like in the 1 Corinthians 3 passage . One plants as nothing the other water with the gospel (two is the witness God has spoken) In the end God

1 Corinthians 4:5-7King James Version5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.And these things, brethren, I have in a figure (parable) transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men (dying mankind) above that which is written, (sola scriptura) that no one of you be puffed up for one against another ( Who is the greatest) For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive (freely from the hand or will of God)? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?(sola scriptura)

The sword of the unseen Holy Spirit the armor of God it defends us we care for it . . preaching the gospel . . again God the one with power alone can cause a increase or growth. . the spiritual seed Christ one . .spiritual not many of the flesh literal what the eyes see,

 

[donadams]

The church is composed of you and me and all the believers who are in Christ. WE ALL have the authority to defend and safeguard the truth.

Matt 16:17-19 and 18:18 apply to the faithful?
Jn 20:21-23 also?
Matt 28:19:20 also?

 

[donadams]

You are making the church the source of truth inspired form earth. God's truth is inspired from above it comes down as rain (the gospel ). . . water of the word the pouring out of his unseen Holy Spiriton dying flesh

The 15th was a carbon copy of the first century different names for the fathers same law of dying mankind as oral I heard it through the fathers grapevine. . faithless (none not little ) no sola scriptura. God living abiding word to mankind not form dying mankind eathly inspired

Its not new churches as the bride or wife of Christ. Abel the first born again from above sent as a apostle. Cain under the influence of the father of lies was a serial murderer from that very beginning murdered Abel to silence the gospel.

Abel our brother in the lord his corrupted flesh blood like the blood of any saint cries out in hope of the promise new incorruptible bodies that will not age leading toward as end (annihilation) return to dust

The so called relied on all thing writen in the law and prophets (sola scriptura) same reforming authority we have today . . until the end of time under the Sun

So we have a new new covenant the old one established by Christ is replaced by the one established by the tradition of men? Luther etc.

They rejected Christ and his church and his revealed truth, the Christian faith, catholic and Divine and stated new church’s 30,000 sects with new doctrine all by the tradition of men with no authority from Christ or his one true apostolic church!

Thanks

 

[donadams]

If the apostles " sent ones" with no other meaning added as messengers sent out that some translated as angel a word not coined until way after the original . Angel a fake word creating a ilusion. Messenger not highly venable ones puffed up ones.

How beautiful are their feet shod with the gospel (sola scriptura)

The idea of venerating dying mankind in a hope they will increase the faith to believe God is simply a lie from the bottomless pit

Every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.As two walking together strengthened by one the Father. . Yoked with Christ he makes our daily burden lighter as we pray. . . . . give us this day our daily bread of His will. . the storehouse of faith (his ) he gives us little called the golden measure (non literal) we walk by the unseen eternal not the temporal seen

The bible defines the words within . .not a legion of fathers that some call patron saints

1 Corinthians 3:1-8 King James Version And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?I have planted, Apollos watered; but God (alone) gave the increase.So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God(alone) that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

Another section that witnesses to the word "apostle" sent messenger is when God sets aside two apostles just like in the 1 Corinthians 3 passage . One plants as nothing the other water with the gospel (two is the witness God has spoken) In the end God

1 Corinthians 4:5-7King James Version5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.And these things, brethren, I have in a figure (parable) transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men (dying mankind) above that which is written, (sola scriptura) that no one of you be puffed up for one against another ( Who is the greatest) For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive (freely from the hand or will of God)? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?(sola scriptura)

The sword of the unseen Holy Spirit the armor of God it defends us we care for it . . preaching the gospel . . again God the one with power alone can cause a increase or growth. . the spiritual seed Christ one . .spiritual not many of the flesh literal what the eyes see,

Which of the so-called reformers were apostles???

The church is one unity and both visible and invisible
Spiritual and temporal or physical and supernatural!

Thanks

 

[Mr GLee]

Which of the so-called reformers were apostles???

The church is one unity and both visible and invisible
Spiritual and temporal or physical and supernatural!

Thanks

Thanks. . . .mysterious faith the doctrine on the back burner. . . the revealer of mysteries ;

Yes both invisible represented by the visual and the supernatural unseen Spirt of Christ together working as one

I would think it describes the "law of the faith" or "law of understanding of God" giving us ears to hear his understanding or interpretation.

What I would call True creative Faith. . . . signs follow the work of believing (faith) the law . . Let there be and its witness. . . it was God good prefect Unlike human faith the imaginations of our hearts . God calls that no faith not little none

Signs lead those who have no faith to see the unseen things of God

.He gives us little the golden measure of faith Peter said give us the increase as we decrease.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Matt 16:17-19 and 18:18 apply to the faithful?
Jn 20:21-23 also?
Matt 28:19:20 also?

I am sure you remember the 12 thrones which Christ promised to the 12 disciples that they would sit upon, judging the twelve tribes of Israel after the regeneration (Christ's resurrection) when He sat on the throne of His glory (Matthew 19:28). These "thrones" authorized the 12 disciples to confirm Christ's doctrine and establish the early church in Jerusalem when the New Covenant had just been launched with Christ's blood at His resurrection-day ascension.

The "thrones" language Christ used was just a throwback to Psalms 122:5, "Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together: Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the Lord, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the Lord. For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David." Any difficult matters of judgment under Mosaic law were to be settled by consulting the Levitical priests or the judge in the house of the Lord back in the OT, as decreed back in Deuteronomy 17:8-13. In the NT, the 12 thrones of judgment authorized by Christ had the 12 Apostles setting up church operations according to Christ's doctrine, which the early church in Jerusalem was to abide by.

The 12 apostles (not just Peter) were pictured as the 12 foundations for the New Jerusalem city in Revelation 21:10-14 which we are part of today. Christ is the chief cornerstone, and the 12 apostles to whom He originally gave those 12 thrones of judgment for the tribes of Israel are the 12 foundations supporting all the "living stones" built on top of them. The number of "living stones" are continuously being built up into a holy temple to the Lord.

We don't need any other foundations than these original ones which God put in place. Every single believing Christian besides those 12 is on equal footing as another "living stone" built on top of those original foundations. None has preferred standing over another. No cleric - no presbyter or elder - no board of deacons - no pope - ALL who are "living stones" are considered priests with equal importance to the entire structure. The Reformers got that point, but the RCC had forgotten it. Unfortunately, many of today's Protestant churches have similarly forgotten this point, and run their congregations like a business corporation with a president, CEO's, investors, and PC managers.

 

[donadams]

Thanks. . . .mysterious faith the doctrine on the back burner. . . the revealer of mysteries ;

Yes both invisible represented by the visual and the supernatural unseen Spirt of Christ together working as one

I would think it describes the "law of the faith" or "law of understanding of God" giving us ears to hear his understanding or interpretation.

What I would call True creative Faith. . . . signs follow the work of believing (faith) the law . . Let there be and its witness. . . it was God good prefect Unlike human faith the imaginations of our hearts . God calls that no faith not little none

Signs lead those who have no faith to see the unseen things of God

.He gives us little the golden measure of faith Peter said give us the increase as we decrease.

How many churches are there?

 

[donadams]

I am sure you remember the 12 thrones which Christ promised to the 12 disciples that they would sit upon, judging the twelve tribes of Israel after the regeneration (Christ's resurrection) when He sat on the throne of His glory (Matthew 19:28). These "thrones" authorized the 12 disciples to confirm Christ's doctrine and establish the early church in Jerusalem when the New Covenant had just been launched with Christ's blood at His resurrection-day ascension.

The "thrones" language Christ used was just a throwback to Psalms 122:5, "Jerusalem is builded as a city that is compact together: Whither the tribes go up, the tribes of the Lord, unto the testimony of Israel, to give thanks unto the name of the Lord. For there are set thrones of judgment, the thrones of the house of David." Any difficult matters of judgment under Mosaic law were to be settled by consulting the Levitical priests or the judge in the house of the Lord back in the OT, as decreed back in Deuteronomy 17:8-13. In the NT, the 12 thrones of judgment authorized by Christ had the 12 Apostles setting up church operations according to Christ's doctrine, which the early church in Jerusalem was to abide by.

The 12 apostles (not just Peter) were pictured as the 12 foundations for the New Jerusalem city in Revelation 21:10-14 which we are part of today. Christ is the chief cornerstone, and the 12 apostles to whom He originally gave those 12 thrones of judgment for the tribes of Israel are the 12 foundations supporting all the "living stones" built on top of them. The number of "living stones" are continuously being built up into a holy temple to the Lord.

We don't need any other foundations than these original ones which God put in place. Every single believing Christian besides those 12 is on equal footing as another "living stone" built on top of those original foundations. None has preferred standing over another. No cleric - no presbyter or elder - no board of deacons - no pope - ALL who are "living stones" are considered priests with equal importance to the entire structure. The Reformers got that point, but the RCC had forgotten it. Unfortunately, many of today's Protestant churches have similarly forgotten this point, and run their congregations like a business corporation with a president, CEO's, investors, and PC managers.

And then thought there was only one mediator between Man and God, but it’s only convenient when you use it against us!

 

[3 Resurrections]

And then thought there was only one mediator between Man and God, but it’s only convenient when you use it against us!

The 12 thrones of the 12 disciples were not mediator positions. They were positions of judges passing down sentences (like Ananias and Saphira, Simon Magus, etc.), and establishing church practices according to Christ's directives by the Holy Spirit (such as the question of circumcision, who would receive laying on of hands, care of widows, etc.)

 

[donadams]

The 12 thrones of the 12 disciples were not mediator positions. They were positions of judges passing down sentences (like Ananias and Saphira, Simon Magus, etc.), and establishing church practices according to Christ's directives by the Holy Spirit (such as the question of circumcision, who would receive laying on of hands, care of widows, etc.)

Who or what did Judas judge?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Who or what did Judas judge?

I'm sure you also remember the selection of Matthias in Acts 1:15-26, and why he replaced Judas, according to David's prophecy in Psalms 109:7-8. Christ had said in John 17:12 that none of the disciples would be lost, except for the "son of destruction", so that the scriptures could be fulfilled. The charge originally given to Judas to sit as judge on one of the 12 thrones passed to Matthias, who was numbered among the eleven.

 

[Arial]

On what authority?

The church was taught by Christ three years in person so it naturally condemned the cola’s and those who invented them!

You do not seem to recognize or acknowledge that the Reformation sparked by Luther---a priest---when he posted his theses against the sale of indulgences came from within the Catholic church in an attempt to reform a very corrupt and 10,000 miles off of scripture, (they didn't even give sermons teaching from the word of God on the word of God, but mumbled often inarticulate and in Latin which most could not speak or understand, nothing but traditions of men)to reform the Catholic church and put it back on solid scriptural ground. Rather than participate in such reformation, obviously not giving a hoot about it or scripture, they simply kicked out the ones attempting that reform. All the most prominent reformers were Catholic. Later they did do some of their own reforms within, and some they gave the appearance of doing but merely kept hidden.

The Protestant reformation came about by the Catholics doing. Brave men put their very lives and wellbeing on the line to give back to the people what God had given them through the NT apostles what the them and the Catholic church had taken away. If they couldn't bring about the reforms from within because they were kicked out, they would do it by completely breaking away from the totalitarian corruption and abuse. The solas were not the beginning. They came about because of and during.

"The church was taught by Christ for three years-----' is a statement not clarified openly as to its meaning, and supported by nothing but hearsay.

 

[donadams]

W

I'm sure you also remember the selection of Matthias in Acts 1:15-26, and why he replaced Judas, according to David's prophecy in Psalms 109:7-8. Christ had said in John 17:12 that none of the disciples would be lost, except for the "son of destruction", so that the scriptures could be fulfilled. The charge originally given to Judas to sit as judge on one of the 12 thrones passed to Matthias, who was numbered among the eleven.

Where does Paul sit?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Where does Paul sit?

As the "Apostle to the Gentiles" which Paul called himself. He was the dividing line between the end of the 70 weeks prophecy and the surge of evangelistic coverage that went abroad into all the Gentile nations. God's commission for Paul in the Jerusalem temple to leave Jerusalem and concentrate on evangelizing Gentiles ended the 70 weeks prophecy in AD 37.