Questioning the reformation!

[donadams]

Amen!

Scripture says Church founded on Jesus first and secondarily apostles and prophets. As far as "governance" goes, we don't see much of a developed ecclesiastical structure in the first century. The church met in various homes.

No hierarchical structure / no authority??? Really

Christ is the head of the church that starts a hierarchical structure and authority

 

[donadams]

I am probably a heretic for thinking this, but it always fascinated me that MEN decided one way to replace the missing "Apostle" and Jesus seems to have chosen another way to replace the missing Apostle. How typical of Jesus, the Apostles and ... well, US in general.

Why think it’s a missing apostle? The church is universal and thousands are needed all over the world

 

[donadams]

I am probably a heretic for thinking this, but it always fascinated me that MEN decided one way to replace the missing "Apostle" and Jesus seems to have chosen another way to replace the missing Apostle. How typical of Jesus, the Apostles and ... well, US in general.

The apostles have the same authority as Christ

 

[donadams]

All who are given to Him by the Father. The very ones that believe in the sufficiency of His person and work.

The offices of the church given by Paul---shepherds, teachers, bishops, elders, overseers (no pope , no cardinal, no priest in there) are the governing structure of individual congregations. And the RCC borrowed the title of bishop then applied it to their organization, and uses it now as though they authenticate the Bible and the Bible authenticates them. Just like calling Peter the first pope.

Is Christ the head of the church?

 

[donadams]

"Biological brothers" is of course a modern term, so we wouldn't find something so anachronistic. But the verses I cited make clear that Mary and Joseph's family (of which Jesus was a part) included sibling brothers to Jesus. Other sons born to Mary and Jospeh.

NEVER! Scripture never asserts such a thing!

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Here scripture gives the names of the children of Mary!

Only one!

Thanks

 

[TB2]

No hierarchical structure / no authority??? Really

Christ is the head of the church that starts a hierarchical structure and authority

I said we don't see a developed ecclesiastical structure in the first century. They had overseers/leaders sure enough, but terms like "bishop," "elder," "pastor," "presbyter," "deacon," and so on have greatly evolved meanings and functions today than they did in the simpler days of the first century house "church." Even the name "church" today is misleading for the buildings and steeples and cathedrals the word brings to mind today.

 

[TB2]

NEVER! Scripture never asserts such a thing!

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Here scripture gives the names of the children of Mary!

Only one!

Thanks

Did I not say that Mary and Joseph had other children/sons? Did I not say that "biological brother" is a modern term so would be anachronistic? So of course the Bible is not going to speak in modern terms. Doesn't change the fact that Mary and Jospeh had other children/sons in addition to Jesus. As part of their family, people would recognize these sons as Jesus's siblings/brothers. Even an adopted person is recognized as belonging to the family in question.

 

[TB2]

The apostles have the same authority as Christ

Lot that needs to be fleshed out in that statement

 

[TB2]

Cathedral means the seat of the bishop, his place of authority
Matt 23 we have the successors of Moses in the seat (cathedral) of moses
Acts 1:20 bishop


Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles! The apostles have the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! Jn 20:21 as the father sent me, so I send you!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
Jn 17:22 / rom 2:10 / 1 pet 1:7 Christ shares His glory with His saints!
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
Must hear church Matt 18:18
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
Acts 2:42 doctrine of the apostles!
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1

The pillar and foundation of TRUTH!
1 Tim 3:15

The TWO EDGE SWORD!
To proclaim the truth! Matt 28:19
To condemn error! 1 cor 16:22
Thanks

My point is there is not a one-to-one correspondence between what those words mean today vs what they meant back then in the first century. Words like: church, catholic, bishop, elder, deacon, pastor, presbyter, saint, apostle, etc. All these words have developed and evolved their own meanings and now have all manner of cultural, societal, and traditional baggage attached to them that was not present originally.

For example, the word "catholic" itself is automatically identified with the Roman Catholic Church, when there originally was no such association, and the word was simply used to identify the *invisible* church universal---not a single hierarchical top-down centrally localized institution---but all churches/assemblies/communities of believers established throughout the Roman empire that were born of the Spirit.

The whole organized, institutionalized religion that Christianity has become gravely misses the mark compared to the original first century understanding of the one and only Church of Jesus Christ as less a physical, natural entity vs born of the Spirit. The true Church is not some man-made building or institution, but consists of "living stones" of true believers born of the Spirit and united into one Body of Christ by the one same Spirit.

Simply being a member of a Protestant, or Orthodox, or Catholic Church (even a member who has gone through confirmation and observes the sacraments) does NOT guarantee that you are born of the Spirit and belong to the one true universal Church of Christ.

 

[donadams]

My point is there is not a one-to-one correspondence between what those words mean today vs what they meant back then in the first century. Words like: church, catholic, bishop, elder, deacon, pastor, presbyter, saint, apostle, etc. All these words have developed and evolved their own meanings and now have all manner of cultural, societal, and traditional baggage attached to them that was not present originally.

For example, the word "catholic" itself is automatically identified with the Roman Catholic Church, when there originally was no such association, and the word was simply used to identify the *invisible* church universal---not a single hierarchical top-down centrally localized institution---but all churches/assemblies/communities of believers established throughout the Roman empire that were born of the Spirit.

The whole organized, institutionalized religion that Christianity has become gravely misses the mark compared to the original first century understanding of the one and only Church of Jesus Christ as less a physical, natural entity vs born of the Spirit. The true Church is not some man-made building or institution, but consists of "living stones" of true believers born of the Spirit and united into one Body of Christ by the one same Spirit.

Simply being a member of a Protestant, or Orthodox, or Catholic Church (even a member who has gone through confirmation and observes the sacraments) does NOT guarantee that you are born of the Spirit and belong to the one true universal Church of Christ.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church for the salvation of all men! (Jn 1:16-17) Christ is the truth! (Jn 14:6) Christ and his church are one!
(Acts 9:4 eph 4:4 eph 5:32)
The church is the pillar of truth
(1 Tim 3:15) that must teach all men (Matt 28:19) without error guided by the Holy Spirit
(Jn 16:13)

The church and Christ are one in unity! Acts 9:4 Jn 15:5 eph 5:24 eph
5:32

The church and her doctrine remains the same in every age!
Thanks

 

[TB2]

Not seeing how any of those verses contradict what I'm saying

 

[donadams]

Not seeing how any of those verses contradict what I'm saying

Then we agree only one church!
Only Christ has authority to establish the new covenant church!
And the church is eternal cos Christ and His church are one!
And as Christ reformed the mosaic covenant into the new covenant heb 9:10 then the there will be similarities

Both mosaic and the new Christian covenants have a:

Temple
Ark of the new covenant
Altar
Propitiatory sacrifice
Triple priesthood
With true worship, adoration, reparation, thanksgiving, and petition in the correct and true faith revealed from Christ, and inspired by His spirit and proposed by His holy divine new covenant church!

New covenant Temple: (the body of Christ) Jn 2:19
Ark of the new covenant: (Mary) Lk 1:35
Altar: (the cross) heb 13:10
New covenant Sacrifice: (the eternal propitiatory sacrifice of Christ)
Acts 20:28 Eph 2:13 heb 9
heb 10:19
Priesthood: (the new covenant priesthood of Christ) heb 7:17
High priest: (Christ is high priest) heb 8:1
Low priests (the order of melchisedec) heb 7:17
Golden censor with incense: rev 8:3
Sacraments acts 2:38-39 heb 8:6
Ez 36:25-27
Etc.
thanks

 

[TB2]

Then we agree only one church!
Only Christ has authority to establish the new covenant church!

I agree there is one true universal Church but throughout Scripture we see it referred to in "spiritual" terms, of the Spirit, not the politicized, institutional structures we have in place today

 

[TB2]

Then we agree only one church!

Yes, but I disagree that the one Church = RCC

 

[atpollard]

Yes, but I disagree that the one Church = RCC

Technically, so does the EOC and the OOC (both as old as Rome, if not older).

 

[TB2]

Technically, so does the EOC and the OOC (both as old as Rome, if not older).

Of the two, I'd say the OC has the better argument in their understanding of apostolic succession than RCC

 

[atpollard]

Of the two, I'd say the OC has the better argument in their understanding of apostolic succession than RCC

Yup. I am just not persuaded that "Apostolic succession" is a THING. Paul told Timothy to carry on with the ministry ... he did not transfer the mantle of APOSTLESHIP like Elijah and Elisha. It seems like only GOD appoints Apostles (no hand-me-down Apostleship).

 

[TB2]

You don’t see christ establishing the church on Peter?

Or the fact that the kingdom established by God would conquer the pagan Roman Empire and thereby become Roman? To victor go the spoils, and where Peter and Paul and thousands died for the faith of Jesus Christ!
Thanks

Jesus said on Peter he would build His church and on Peter and the apostles He did, and the apostles evangelized and established local Christian churches throughout the Roman Empire that were an extension of the universal church, each one part of the universal 'catholic' church and tracing back to the apostles and Peter as the leader of the Jerusalem church.

 

[atpollard]

You don’t see christ establishing the church on Peter?

In Acts Chapter 2, Jesus did.
Prophecy fulfilled.

 

[jeremiah1five]

The church and Christ are one in unity! Acts 9:4 Jn 15:5 eph 5:24 eph

How does Eph. 4:24 relate to unity?

5:32
The church and her doctrine remains the same in every age!
Thanks

Not true.
Understanding of the Doctrine of Scripture is progressive.
Doctrine wasn't built in a day but took centuries of building understanding dependent upon how much light God gives to the individual and to a generation.