Luther tried

[Eleanor]

you shouldn't quit so early.... understand that there are men who were sent and men who made up their own theology in the 16th century

simple

Does not relate to post #269. . .the point under discussion.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Does not relate to post #269. . .the point under discussion.

282, 286, 289

 

[Eleanor]

282, 286, 289

Who introduced those terms?

And I won't be engaging in a discussion about the discussion.

 

[Eleanor]

the term sent?

The terms of your posts #282, #284, #287.

The point under discussion is post #269.

 

[Arial]

@Arch Stanton
Discuss post #269 as requested. Also known as common decency and proper forum etiquette.

 

[David1701]

Joachim Jeremias in an extended passage from Kittel's Greek standard TDNT --

"...the key of David is now (3:7) the key which Christ has in His hands as the promised shoot of David. This is the key to God's eternal palace. The meaning of the description is that Christ has unlimited sovereignty over the future world. He alone controls grace and judgment. He decides irrevocably whether a man will have access to the salvation of the last age or whether it will be witheld from him...Materially, then, the keys of the kingdom of God are not different from the key of David...This is confirmed by the fact that in Mt. 16:19, as in Rev. 3:7, Jesus is the One who controls them. But in what sense is the power of the keys given to Peter? ....the handing over of the keys is not just future. It is regarded as taking place now... There are numerous instances to show that in biblical and later Jewish usage handing over the keys implies full authorisation. He who has the keys has full authority. Thus, when Eliakim is given the keys of the palace he is appointed the royal steward (Is. 22:22, cf. 15). When Jesus is said to hold the keys of death and Hades (Rev. 1:18) or the key of David (3:7), this means that He is, not the doorkeeper, but the Lord of the world of the dead and the palace of God...Hence handing over the keys implies appointment to full authority. He who has the keys has on the one side control, e.g., over the council chamber or treasury, cf. Mt. 13:52, and on the other the power to allow or forbid entry, cf. Rev. 3:7...Mt. 23:13 leads us a step further. This passage is particularly important for an understanding of Mt. 16:19 because it is the only one in the NT which presupposes an image not found elsewhere, namely, that of the keys of the kingdom (royal dominion) of God...Mt. 23:13 shows us that the scribes of the time of Jesus claimed to possess the power of the keys in respect of this kingdom...They exercised this by declaring the will of God in Holy Scripture in the form of preaching, teaching and judging. Thereby they opened up for the congregation a way into this kingdom...by acting as spiritual leaders of the congregation....As Lord of the Messianic community He thus transferred the keys of God's royal dominion, i.e. the full authority of proclamation, to Peter...In Rabb. lit. binding and loosing are almost always used in respect of halakhic decisions...The scribe binds (declares to be forbidden) and looses (declares to be permitted)...In Mt. 16:19, then, we are to regard the authority to bind and to loose as judicial. It is the authority to pronounce judgment on unbelievers and to promise forgiveness to believers." (Jeremias from Kittel/Bromiley, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 3, page 748-751)

The only authority any Christian has, is to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and to speak according to what the Bible says. This is why what we bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven already (otherwise we are usurping authority); and the same goes for loosing.

Yes, we can pronounce judgment on unbelievers (because God has already pronounced that judgment in the Bible); and we can promise forgiveness to believers, for the same reason.

 

[atpollard]

There is more than Romans 10 needed for salvation/justification/new birth/ and eternal life....

Paul LIED?

Romans 10:9-10 [NKJV] 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

If I “confess with my mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in my heart that God has raised Him from the dead” … I will NOT be saved?

With the heart I DO NOT believe unto righteousness?

With the mouth confession is NOT made unto salvation?

Is that REALLY the claim of the RCC?

 

[Arch Stanton]

Paul LIED?

No, St. Paul did not lie... one verse taken alone is dangerous.

 

[Arch Stanton]

The only authority any Christian has, is to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and to speak according to what the Bible says. This is why what we bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven already (otherwise we are usurping authority); and the same goes for loosing.

Yes, we can pronounce judgment on unbelievers (because God has already pronounced that judgment in the Bible); and we can promise forgiveness to believers, for the same reason.

Take the 'we' out. That was for Peter [keys/bind-loose] and the other apostles.... then, through the laying on of hands, the next generation.

 

[Alive]

Islam says kill the infidel. Convert or die…and the pope kisses his hand.

MSN

 

[Mr GLee]

only if they are man-made

There is no defense against the living word of God the sword of Christ's Holy Spirit (sola scriptura)

I would offer verse Mathew 16: 19 is not the end of the chapter and therefore the . . . . . .the beginning of the CCC book of the law of fathers . I heard it through the fathers grapevine as it is written

Mathew 16:19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind (declare to be improper and unlawful) on earth must be what is already bound in heaven; and whatever you loose (declare lawful) on earth must be what is already loosed in heaven.

Called the God glorifying loosing and binding labor of Christ love . The good O' law of faith . "Let there be" and it was . "God not seen alone good" . . . .Our Faithful or powerful Creator.

The venerable puffed up ones Teaching the non-venerable pew warmers that .Peter our brother in the Lord as dying making is Devine God .

Making himself as Devine sinner equal with Christ our husband as the one Holy Father

The Catholic Bible Paragraph 80: 40 "Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, then, are bound closely together, and communicate one with the other. For both of them, flowing out from the same divine well-spring, come together in some fashion to form one thing, and move towards the same goal.

Can't serve two Devine teaching master as one Lord of lords.

Man made ?????. ..like, when Peter our brother in the Lord rebuked the lord of glory and forbid Jesus the Son of man from doing the will of the husband Christ ?That kind of man- made ?

Mathew 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

What does the Pope say is the object lesson of the chapter 16 ? Does context matter?

Should Christians seek after what some must call the Devine authroity of dying mankind a legion of patron saints his and hers gods. Found in their own book of law as it is written. Catechism of the Catholic church (CCC )

What about God our Holy Father. Does he get any credit???

Should Christians obey the living words of Christ our husband ?

Matthew 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one (not a legion of patron saints 3,513 and rising. )is your Father, which
is in heaven. . . .

I would offer as Christians I would think we would obey the one Holy Father (Jesus with no power. . Not as I will ) as that which loosens his eternal will from heaven binding His will on earth as it is written (sola scriptura). Our shield Christ's faithful labor of love .

And not the law of the queen mother named after our blessed sister in the Lord Mary. . His and hers gods of heaven .They denied with hatred sola scriptura) Saying as for the living word of God (sola scriptura) we will not hearken unto thee. But we will certainly do whatsoever thing goeth forth out of our own mouth, to burn incense unto the queen of heaven and se no evil Jeremiah 44:16-1

 

[Alive]

“Then all the men who were aware that their wives were burning sacrifices to other gods, along with all the women who were standing by, as a large assembly, including all the people who were living in Pathros in the land of Egypt, responded to Jeremiah, saying, “As for the message that you have spoken to us in the name of the LORD, we are not going to listen to you! “But we will certainly carry out every word that has proceeded from our mouths, by burning sacrifices to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, just as we ourselves, our forefathers, our kings, and our leaders did in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem; for then we had plenty of food and were well off and saw no misfortune. “But since we stopped burning sacrifices to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything, and have met our end by the sword and by famine.” “And,” said the women, “when we were burning sacrifices to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, was it without our husbands that we made for her sacrificial cakes in her image, and poured out drink offerings to her?””

(Jeremiah 44:15-19 NAS20)

Accordance

accordance.bible

 

[donadams]

The only authority any Christian has, is to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit and to speak according to what the Bible says. This is why what we bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven already (otherwise we are usurping authority); and the same goes for loosing.

Yes, we can pronounce judgment on unbelievers (because God has already pronounced that judgment in the Bible); and we can promise forgiveness to believers, for the same reason.

St. Ignatius (apostolic father, taught by the apostles in person) said: no consecrated bishop, no church!
Heb 13:7-17 obey those in authority
Thks

 

[Mr GLee]

St. Ignatius (apostolic father, taught by the apostles in person) said: no consecrated bishop, no church!
Heb 13:7-17 obey those in authority
Thks

Hi Don
Use the living word of God to define the His word "apostle". Or are you not allowed to as a non-venerable ?

 

[David1701]

No, St. Paul did not lie... one verse taken alone is dangerous.

Other verses give additional information; but, they do not give contradictory information.

 

[David1701]

Take the 'we' out. That was for Peter [keys/bind-loose] and the other apostles.... then, through the laying on of hands, the next generation.

I think you meant "...and the other disciples...". The thing is that every genuine believer in Jesus Christ is a disciple of Christ and has authority to bind and loose, as led by the Holy Spirit, and in accordance with the Bible. For example, if I preach the gospel and someone rejects it, then I have the authority to declare that, as things stand, he is under God's wrath and will go to hell (binding); if that person repents and believes in Jesus Christ, then I have the authority to tell him that, if he is a genuine believer, then he is saved and will go to heaven (loosing).

 

[Arch Stanton]

Other verses give additional information; but, they do not give contradictory information.

AMEN! Quite Catholic!

 

[Arch Stanton]

I think you meant "...and the other disciples...". The thing is that every genuine believer in Jesus Christ is a disciple of Christ and has authority to bind and loose, as led by the Holy Spirit, and in accordance with the Bible. For example, if I preach the gospel and someone rejects it, then I have the authority to declare that, as things stand, he is under God's wrath and will go to hell (binding); if that person repents and believes in Jesus Christ, then I have the authority to tell him that, if he is a genuine believer, then he is saved and will go to heaven (loosing).

Matthew 18:18 states, "Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on Earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in heaven." This passage highlights the authority given by Jesus to His apostles to make binding decisions within the Church. This authority, known as "binding and loosing," was first given to Peter in Matthew 16:19 and then extended to all the apostles in Matthew 18:18. This demonstrates the hierarchical nature of the Church, where the apostles and their successors, the bishops, hold the authority to interpret and apply God's Word and to govern the Church.

CCC 771 "The one mediator, Christ, established and ever sustains here on earth his holy Church, the community of faith, hope, and charity, as a visible organization through which he communicates truth and grace to all men." The Church is at the same time:
- a "society structured with hierarchical organs and the mystical body of Christ;

- the visible society and the spiritual community;

- the earthly Church and the Church endowed with heavenly riches."

These dimensions together constitute "one complex reality which comes together from a human and a divine element":

The Church is essentially both human and divine, visible but endowed with invisible realities, zealous in action and dedicated to contemplation, present in the world, but as a pilgrim, so constituted that in her the human is directed toward and subordinated to the divine, the visible to the invisible, action to contemplation, and this present world to that city yet to come, the object of our quest.

O humility! O sublimity! Both tabernacle of cedar and sanctuary of God; earthly dwelling and celestial palace; house of clay and royal hall; body of death and temple of light; and at last both object of scorn to the proud and bride of Christ! She is black but beautiful, O daughters of Jerusalem, for even if the labor and pain of her long exile may have discolored her, yet heaven's beauty has adorned her.

 

[Arial]

This authority, known as "binding and loosing," was first given to Peter in Matthew 16:19 and then extended to all the apostles in Matthew 18:18. This demonstrates the hierarchical nature of the Church, where the apostles and their successors, the bishops, hold the authority to interpret and apply God's Word and to govern the Church.

For one thing Matt 18 says nothing about authority to interpret God's word---they have added that, so as to establish the Catholic churches bishops and priests and Pope as also holding the office of the Apostles' in the Bible. The apostles in the Bible were appointed by Christ to lay the foundation of Christ's universal and invisible (which has been explained by others for you so I will not repeat it). That foundation contains the teaching that we find given to us by those apostles as to the teaching and doctrines of His church. They are not subject to dictated interpretation made by an exclusive visible church. They are what they are---period.

And those apostles had to meet very specific requirements to hold the office of apostle. They had to have been companions of Jesus all his earthly walk and eye witnesses of the resurrection---or as in Paul's who was given a specific commission as the apostle to the Gentiles, have been directly appointed by the risen Christ. (Acts 1:21-26) The Catholic hierarchy does not qualify. It has way overstepped its bounds.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Use the living word of God to define the His word "apostle". Or are you not allowed to as a non-venerable ?

The term "Apostle" comes from the Greek word "apostello," which means "to send forth" or "to dispatch."