Questioning the reformation!

[atpollard]

Scripture Verses that contradict the “Bible is our ONLY AUTHORITY”!

Matt 5:14

[Matthew 5:14 NKJV] "You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden."
[NLT] "You are the light of the world--like a city on a hilltop that cannot be hidden."

I don't see the contradiction, myself.

 

[atpollard]

Matt 13:11

[Matthew 13:11 NKJV] He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
[NLT] He replied, "You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not.

So admit it, you just selected these at random because you thought nobody would actually check, right?

 

[donadams]

[Matthew 5:14 NKJV] "You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden."
[NLT] "You are the light of the world--like a city on a hilltop that cannot be hidden."

I don't see the contradiction, myself.

If “scripture is the only authority” or source of truth, how can the church be a source of truth? Light is another word for truth.

 

[donadams]

[Matthew 13:11 NKJV] He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
[NLT] He replied, "You are permitted to understand the secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven, but others are not.

So admit it, you just selected these at random because you thought nobody would actually check, right?

You got me figured out! Lol!

No if the “scripture is the only authority” the apostles would not be entrusted with the mysteries of the kingdom only scripture would
But that’s the problem of only what some of the apostles write is an authority and not the apostles themselves!

Truth known by “hearing” the apostles not the “Bible alone”!

1 John 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

The apostles in person:

2 John 1:12
Having many things to write unto you, I would not write with paper and ink: but I trust to come unto you, and speak face to face, that our joy may be full.

Doctrine of the apostles: acts 2:42

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

Thanks

 

[atpollard]

You got me figured out! Lol!

No if the “scripture is the only authority” the apostles would not be entrusted with the mysteries of the kingdom only scripture would
But that’s the problem of only what some of the apostles write is an authority and not the apostles themselves!

Truth known by “hearing” the apostles not the “Bible alone”!

So how long have you heard "Apostles" speaking to you? "I hear dead people talking" is grounds to consider an exorcism.

On a serious note: Sure, there are lots of other authorities if we are going to get pedantic.

• The police man holding a gun is CERTAINLY an authority.
• The Spanish Inquisition and the Geneva Council both burning heretics were another "authority" (equal opportunity to pick on Catholics and Protestants).
• Jesus speaking to Saul on the road to Damascus ... BIG TIME authority.
• The Apostles talking and performing miracles under the power of the Holy Spirit ... authority.

However, when I heard about this Jesus and his offer and wondered about getting baptized ... did I need it? should I do it? what is the right way to obey what God wants?

• The Policeman and his gun had no authoritative answer.
• The Spanish Inquisition and Geneva Council only made me want to run back to Atheism.
• Jesus did not appear to me like He did on the road to Damascus to answer the question personally.
• The original Apostles were not alive to ask and those claiming to be modern apostles lacked credibility.
• WHAT I HAD was:
  • The written letters from the actual apostles ... the Word of God.
  • Lots of opinions from people that all claimed to have the definitive answer (but disagreed).

So SCRIPTURE becomes the norma normans non normata “the norm of norms that is not normed” ... the standard according to which all other standards or rules of the Christian faith are measured, and the one standard which has no higher standard against which it is measured.

That is the meaning of Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone).

 

[donadams]

So how long have you heard "Apostles" speaking to you? "I hear dead people talking" is grounds to consider an exorcism.

On a serious note: Sure, there are lots of other authorities if we are going to get pedantic.

• The police man holding a gun is CERTAINLY an authority.
• The Spanish Inquisition and the Geneva Council both burning heretics were another "authority" (equal opportunity to pick on Catholics and Protestants).
• Jesus speaking to Saul on the road to Damascus ... BIG TIME authority.
• The Apostles talking and performing miracles under the power of the Holy Spirit ... authority.

However, when I heard about this Jesus and his offer and wondered about getting baptized ... did I need it? should I do it? what is the right way to obey what God wants?

• The Policeman and his gun had no authoritative answer.
• The Spanish Inquisition and Geneva Council only made me want to run back to Atheism.
• Jesus did not appear to me like He did on the road to Damascus to answer the question personally.
• The original Apostles were not alive to ask and those claiming to be modern apostles lacked credibility.
• WHAT I HAD was:
  • The written letters from the actual apostles ... the Word of God.
  • Lots of opinions from people that all claimed to have the definitive answer (but disagreed).

So SCRIPTURE becomes the norma normans non normata “the norm of norms that is not normed” ... the standard according to which all other standards or rules of the Christian faith are measured, and the one standard which has no higher standard against which it is measured.

That is the meaning of Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone).

Then why does scripture say the church is the light of truth? Matt 5:14 and the pillar of truth 1 Tim 3:15

The doctrine of the “Bible is the only authority” is one of the Protestant sola’s and only refers to doctrinal matters, or source of truth or rule of faith.

I oppose this doctrine as scripture itself does.

How to hear the apostles? Go where they are teach or read scripture, but we must be taught and cannot decide truth or faith for ourselves.

Apostles must remain until Christ returns, Lk 22:29 they administer the kingdom Matt 28:19-20 I am will you (apostles) to the end acts 1:8 His witnesses unto the ends of the earth requires “apostolic succession” and Christ does teach us just as He taught Paul or the disciples on the road to Emmaus, thru the apostolic church!

Thanks

 

[donadams]

So how long have you heard "Apostles" speaking to you? "I hear dead people talking" is grounds to consider an exorcism.

On a serious note: Sure, there are lots of other authorities if we are going to get pedantic.

• The police man holding a gun is CERTAINLY an authority.
• The Spanish Inquisition and the Geneva Council both burning heretics were another "authority" (equal opportunity to pick on Catholics and Protestants).
• Jesus speaking to Saul on the road to Damascus ... BIG TIME authority.
• The Apostles talking and performing miracles under the power of the Holy Spirit ... authority.

However, when I heard about this Jesus and his offer and wondered about getting baptized ... did I need it? should I do it? what is the right way to obey what God wants?

• The Policeman and his gun had no authoritative answer.
• The Spanish Inquisition and Geneva Council only made me want to run back to Atheism.
• Jesus did not appear to me like He did on the road to Damascus to answer the question personally.
• The original Apostles were not alive to ask and those claiming to be modern apostles lacked credibility.
• WHAT I HAD was:
  • The written letters from the actual apostles ... the Word of God.
  • Lots of opinions from people that all claimed to have the definitive answer (but disagreed).

So SCRIPTURE becomes the norma normans non normata “the norm of norms that is not normed” ... the standard according to which all other standards or rules of the Christian faith are measured, and the one standard which has no higher standard against which it is measured.

That is the meaning of Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone).

Then why does scripture say the church is the light of truth? Matt 5:14 and the pillar of truth 1 Tim 3:15

Also there is the teaching of the early church fathers, creeds, decrees of councils other writings of the apostles and their successors

Thanks

 

[atpollard]

Then why does scripture say the church is the light of truth? Matt 5:14 and the pillar of truth 1 Tim 3:15

Because it is ...

John 17:13-21 [NASB20]

"But now I am coming to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I am not asking You to take them out of the world, but to keep them away from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. Just as You sent Me into the world, I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, so that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth."​

"I am not asking on behalf of these alone, but also for those who believe in Me through their word, that they may all be one; just as You, Father, [are] in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me."​

We be the church ... the people of God in Him ... not any hierarchical denominational organization.

 

[atpollard]

Also there is the teaching of the early church fathers, creeds, decrees of councils other writings of the apostles and their successors

... a mixture of truth and heresy as the early church (believers) struggled to understand hard questions (Trinity, Presence, Hypostatic union).

 

[atpollard]

I oppose this doctrine as scripture itself does.

As YOU should (since you are Catholic and embrace the magisterium and Sacred Tradition and Apostolic succession - all interrelated), however I disagree with your exegesis that scripture rejects it. All the other authorities (Jesus and the 12 Apostles) are no longer walking among us and available to speak to us EXCEPT through their writings ... which brings us back to Sola Scriptura as the norma normans non normata (see post #153 for definition).

 

[donadams]

Because it is ...

John 17:13-21 [NASB20]

"But now I am coming to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. I am not asking You to take them out of the world, but to keep them away from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. Just as You sent Me into the world, I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, so that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth."​

"I am not asking on behalf of these alone, but also for those who believe in Me through their word, that they may all be one; just as You, Father, [are] in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me."​

We be the church ... the people of God in Him ... not any hierarchical denominational organization.

Then the statement “the Bible is the only authority” is false?

Not any hierarchy? You sure?
Christ is not high priest? Having authority over the apostles (low priests of the same order)

Thanks

 

[donadams]

... a mixture of truth and heresy as the early church (believers) struggled to understand hard questions (Trinity, Presence, Hypostatic union).

What happened to the eternal words of Christ? Matt 16:17-19
Shall not prevail
And guarantee of the Holy Spirit Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21 Matt 28:19 Lk 10:16 etc.

 

[atpollard]

Not any hierarchy? You sure?

I did not say that ... I said "not any hierarchical denominational organization." [A Baptist Distictive ... autonomous local Churches answering directly to Jesus Christ, the Head.]

Even the Triune Godhead expresses internal hierarchy [boom!!! my mind is blown at THAT reality.]

 

[atpollard]

What happened to the eternal words of Christ?

???? You should read a Protestant Bible if they have gone missing from your Catholic Bible. They are still there, safely recorded where they have always been. The Early Church Fathers expressed a mixture of biblical quotes and their own personal thoughts. Some of their thoughts were correct and some proved in error.

Umm ... I have only read a little of the ECF writings. I never really CARED what they had to say when I had what the Apostles wrote availible to me. Are not Catholics supposed to be more of a fanboy of the ECFs? Are you completely unaware of some of the things they got wrong?

 

[Josheb]

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Questioning the reformation: Reformed truth? (theology) Truth is divine! God is truth!

I am the way, the truth, and the life!
Jn 14:6

Truth is eternal, Unchangeable, immutable and Ir-reformable. No new doctrine or public revelation: The Church is of divine origin and is eternal! Truth and the Church cannot be reformed! There is no error in God or his church! Jn 14:6 Jn 16:13 Christ revealed the truth and Christ teaches the truth to all men thru His church! Matt 28:19 Reformation? Where does the Bible say have a reformation? “Bible only authority” therefore the so-called reforms had “no” authority! What was reformed? Truth and the church are of divine origin, they come from God and cannot be reformed!

Not even honest; nothing was reformed, they rejected the one true church Jn 10:16 founded and established by Christ on Peter matt 16:18 and the apostles matt 18:18 eph 2:20 His witnesses acts 1:8 lead into all truth Jn 16:13 and then teaching and sanctifying all men unto salvation. Matt 28:19 and started new ones when only Christ has authority Matt 28:18 to found the church. Matt 16:18


Where did Christ err in establishing the church To accept the so-called “reformation” is to reject Christ and scripture Matt 16:18-19 shall not prevail Is Christ powerless to defend his bride And the purity of her doctrine Church not dependent on scripture The church was established before the New Testament scripture!

The church came first:
Existed first:
exercised authority and taught before there was a New Testament:
The church was taught by Christ in person for three years and wrote the New Testament!

Not a reformation but a revolt, protest, accusations and rebellion against Christ and His one true church!

Thanks

Help me out here. What is the one specific point of comment or inquiry you want discussed in this thread? And can you make a more conscious effort to include punctuation because a string of words put together like, "Church not dependent on scripture" is meaningless. If that is meant to say, "The Church is not dependent on scripture" then my response is, "That is utterly false" and I will vigorously contest that statement. I will do the same with the premise, "The Church came first, existed first, and exercised authority and taught before there was a New Testament," because there was a pile of scripture upon which the Church was dependent prior to the New Testament being written.

And do you really not know what "reformation" means and not know what was the Reformation (or the difference between the two?


Start with a thesis statement. What, specifically, are we discussing in this thread?

 

[donadams]

I did not say that ... I said "not any hierarchical denominational organization." [A Baptist Distictive ... autonomous local Churches answering directly to Jesus Christ, the Head.]

Even the Triune Godhead expresses internal hierarchy [boom!!! my mind is blown at THAT reality.]

What about in the church?
Christ is head of the church
That depicts a hierarchy!
Then did he appoint anyone in charge before he ascended?

Thanks

 

[donadams]

???? You should read a Protestant Bible if they have gone missing from your Catholic Bible. They are still there, safely recorded where they have always been. The Early Church Fathers expressed a mixture of biblical quotes and their own personal thoughts. Some of their thoughts were correct and some proved in error.

Umm ... I have only read a little of the ECF writings. I never really CARED what they had to say when I had what the Apostles wrote availible to me. Are not Catholics supposed to be more of a fanboy of the ECFs? Are you completely unaware of some of the things they got wrong?

Wrong according to what?
They are apostles and successors
Witnesses of Christ acts 1:8 Lk 10:16

 

[atpollard]

deleted.

 

[Josheb]

Sure

No councils do not change the nature of the church much less reject the church and start new ones without any authority
Only apostles have authority none of the so-called reformers were apostles
Thanks

Th council in Jerusalem to which RevRV was referring was comprised of apostles. Acts 15

 

[Josheb]

Sure

No councils do not change the nature of the church much less reject the church and start new ones without any authority
Only apostles have authority none of the so-called reformers were apostles
Thanks

The apostolic council of Acts 15 did in fact change the nature of the Church. They sanctioned the gospel being taken to the Gentiles and the negation of several prior beliefs and practices.

Where does the Bible say apostles have the authority to start new churches?