No one knows the Day or the Hour !

[EarlyActs]

True, but the whole Day nor Hour dissertation also is meant to show us, the Church, that we are seeing Jesus fulfill the 7 Feasts in order. The fourth Feast is the 4.) Feast of weeks (Summer Harvest/Church Age/Pentecost) which comes after Jesus has fulfilled the 1.) Passover 2.) Unleavened Bread (he knew no sin) 3.) First-fruits (defeats death). Jesus is now our High Priest in heaven, we the church are harvesting souls for God/Jesus, he is the head, we are the body. This can only end on a New Moon Phase, like all the Feasts do. That means these Feasts are appointed times, by God the Father. So, likewise only the Father knows the day and hour, that is referring to the New Moon starting the 5.) Feast of Trumps and that lines up with Rev. 4:1 where Jesus calls us home, ending the Church Age or Feast of weeks. He does so at the "LAST TRUMP" because the Feast of trumps blows the shofar in 9 sets of 11 or 99 times, then on the last trump the Feast of weeks/Summer Harvest or Church Age ends. So Jesus fulfills the Summer Harvest and the Rapture/Feast of Trumps, then he has two Feasts left o fulfill, the 6.) Feast of Atonement which of course is about Israel repenting just before the DOTL as Zech. 13:8-9 shows us, fulfilling the Prophecy of Dan. 9:24-27.

Then finally after Israel atones the can fulfill the last Feast 7.) Feast of Tabernacles, this word means to Dwell with God, and thus Jesus reigns from Israel and Jerusalem for 1000 years with Israel, thus Israel dwell (Tabernacles) with God. So, us not knowing the exact DAY nor HOUR doesn't really mean much, its just Jesus saying God has appointed a specific time and no one knows that SPECIFIC DAY & HOUR, but just like Israel knew within two days when he New Moon Phase would come in, and thus sent two men up into the hills to spy it out and send word back, so will we know approximately when the Rapture will be by all of the SIGNS !! The biggest sign IMHO, is the Middle of the week Asteroid events seen in Rev. 8, I see that as Apophis which arrives on April 13, 2029, so by taking 3.5 years off I see the Fall of 2025 as the latest the Pre Trib Rapture ca happen, I know THE SEASON (just as Israel did) but I can not know the exact day nor hour.

Finish in a bit, you are pretty spot on on most everything so far, so I am just adding an enlightening factoid.

The fulfilled feast of atonement has nothing to do with the future, as we know from I Cor 5. And Dan 9 is fulfilled, as we know from the one NT reference, Mt 24:15. One huge boondoggle created by doing this to Dan 9 is to invent the two atonements theories. This is trademark Dispensationalism where there is two everything; God, too, I have found.

Do not follow people who refuse to let the NT interp the OT. Even in best conditions, it will prob take 2 years of spare-time study to get up to speed on how the NT interps the OT. My pair of books can help, THE ENTHRONED KING and THE COVENANT REVOLT, at Amazon.

 

[Marilyn C]

Let's say I'm a good Christian. How do I NOT get raptured?

We know that many Christians screw up something and suffer for it. Half the Christians get rejected in the parable of the wise and foolish virgins. Apparently, lazy Christians die in the parable of the talents.

How do I screw up the rapture thing?

`To those who EAGERLY WAIT for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.` (Heb. 9: 28)

As to the 10 virgins, that is a parable concerning Israel.

 

[Marilyn C]

Lets have a fun discussion.

Matt.24:36 - " No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, ( Jesus ) but only the Father ( God the Father ). This is talking about the RAPTURE as in a traditional Jewish wedding, the son gets engaged first and then he goes away to his fathers house to prepare a place ( Bridal Chamber ) for her - ( John14:2-3 ) and comes back like a thief in the night to FETCH his bride, when his father tells him to. That is why Jesus ( even though He is God also ) said only His Father Knows.

When Jesus was on earth He was not omniscient, however when He ascended to the Father He was again in the Godhead and thus He does know when He will return to earth to deliver Israel and judge the rebellious nations.

Now as for Jesus' 2nd coming to set up His 1,000 year Kingdom on earth, it will be EXACTLY 2,520 Days after the 7 year Tribulation starts or exactly 1,260 days from the middle of the Tribulation also known as the Great Tribulation - Matt.24:29 - He will come - "Immediately after the Tribulation of those days...". This is one of several proofs that the Rapture and 2nd coming are TWO separate evens , and NOT the same event as many believe - because in the Rapture, the DAY is UNKNOWN and in the 2nd coming, the Exact DAY will be KNOWN once the 7 year Tribulation STARTS, when a peace treaty is put in force by the Anti-Christ between Israel & the Arab block of nations, then those who are left behind from the Rapture can start the count down to Christs' return to earth to set up His Kingdom - exactly 7 biblical years of 360 days each or 2,520 days

Actually, the Lord will return 30 days short of the 7 years. (Matt. 24: 21) The end of the 7 years will be the cleansing of the temple.

I`m glad you also see that the Peace Treaty will be with Israel and the surrounding Arab nations.

. How do I Know the Church ( True Born Again Believers ) will be caught up ( Raptured - 1 Thess.4:16-17 ) before the 7 year Tribulation starts? Answer -Rev.3:10 - The church of Philadelphia which represents the True born again believers of this current age, will be KEPT OUT OF ( Greek word EK - out of , not perseveration through ) the time of trial ( Tribulation ) that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. Thus the RESTRAINING ministry of the Holy Spirit ( The Church ) will be taken ( Raptured ) out of the way so the Anti-Christ can be REVEALED -( 2 Thess.2:6-8 ), as we are NOT appointed to Wrath, but the Salvation through Jesus Christ - 1 Thess.5:9.

hope this helps !!!

Wonderful.

 

[Marilyn C]

Name it what you like.

Is now?
The church is spiritual Israel.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

And where are the scriptures revealing that the Body of Christ (there is neither Jew nor Greek) is `spiritual Israel? `

 

[Marilyn C]

True, but the whole Day nor Hour dissertation also is meant to show us, the Church, that we are seeing Jesus fulfill the 7 Feasts in order. The fourth Feast is the 4.) Feast of weeks (Summer Harvest/Church Age/Pentecost) which comes after Jesus has fulfilled the 1.) Passover 2.) Unleavened Bread (he knew no sin) 3.) First-fruits (defeats death). Jesus is now our High Priest in heaven, we the church are harvesting souls for God/Jesus, he is the head, we are the body. This can only end on a New Moon Phase, like all the Feasts do. That means these Feasts are appointed times, by God the Father. So, likewise only the Father knows the day and hour, that is referring to the New Moon starting the 5.) Feast of Trumps and that lines up with Rev. 4:1 where Jesus calls us home, ending the Church Age or Feast of weeks. He does so at the "LAST TRUMP" because the Feast of trumps blows the shofar in 9 sets of 11 or 99 times, then on the last trump the Feast of weeks/Summer Harvest or Church Age ends. So Jesus fulfills the Summer Harvest and the Rapture/Feast of Trumps, then he has two Feasts left o fulfill, the 6.) Feast of Atonement which of course is about Israel repenting just before the DOTL as Zech. 13:8-9 shows us, fulfilling the Prophecy of Dan. 9:24-27.

I agree that the Feasts are God`s appointed times, however they are for Israel.

The `last trump` for the Body of Christ is the Head`s voice to the Body. (Rev. 1: 10 & 11)

The seven trumpets of Rev. 8 & 9 are the voice of God in Judgment upon the rebellious and His call to repentance.

The 7 Trumpets: God`s Call to Repentance & Judgment.

`Then the angel took the censer; filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to earth. And there were noises, thundering, lightnings and an earthquake. So the 7 angels who had the 7 trumpets prepared themselves to sound.` (Rev. 8: 5 & 6)

The time for the purification of Israel and judgment upon the Nations has come.

Note the blowing of the trumpets was a priestly activity and thus we see Christ the High Priest controlling this from the heavenly sanctuary. It was only when Christ as the angel threw the fire to the earth that the 7 angels prepared to sound.

Then finally after Israel atones the can fulfill the last Feast 7.) Feast of Tabernacles, this word means to Dwell with God, and thus Jesus reigns from Israel and Jerusalem for 1000 years with Israel, thus Israel dwell (Tabernacles) with God. So, us not knowing the exact DAY nor HOUR doesn't really mean much, its just Jesus saying God has appointed a specific time and no one knows that SPECIFIC DAY & HOUR, but just like Israel knew within two days when he New Moon Phase would come in, and thus sent two men up into the hills to spy it out and send word back, so will we know approximately when the Rapture will be by all of the SIGNS !! The biggest sign IMHO, is the Middle of the week Asteroid events seen in Rev. 8, I see that as Apophis which arrives on April 13, 2029, so by taking 3.5 years off I see the Fall of 2025 as the latest the Pre Trib Rapture ca happen, I know THE SEASON (just as Israel did) but I can not know the exact day nor hour.

Finish in a bit, you are pretty spot on on most everything so far, so I am just adding an enlightening factoid.

Jesus rules through a regent. king David from Jerusalem in the millennium. (Jer. 30: 9, Ez. 37: 24)

I believe that it is the maturing of the Body of Christ (Eph. 4: 13) that will bring about the catching away to its eternal setting in glory.

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

I agree that the Feasts are God`s appointed times, however they are for Israel.

The `last trump` for the Body of Christ is the Head`s voice to the Body. (Rev. 1: 10 & 11)

That is not the Last Trump, it is God speaking unto the 7 (Divine Completion) Churches of the Church Age period.

Rev. 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

Rev. 1 is John seeing Jesus in all of his glory. Rev. 2 & 3 is the Church Age, Rev. 4-19 is the 70th week hereafter. That merely signifies Jesus' authority, he speaks as a Trump quivers.

As per the Feasts, yes they are for Israel, but Israel lives in this world, they are God SHOWING Israel their course in this world at every turn. They birth the Messiah/Redeemer, he dies (Passover) for "Their sins" and we were grafted in. He knows NO SIN (He was the son of God, he was thus as Unleavened Bread without sin). Jesus then destroyed death and was the First-fruits of the grave. Jesus then became the High Priest of the "Gentile Harvest" season (Church Age/Pentecost or Feast of Weeks) in which Jews also come to know the Messiah, and the church was built up by Jesus' Jewish Disciples. The Feast of Trumps end the Harvest of Souls, thus happens in Rev. 4:1 where Jesus calls the Church home. Both Jews and Gentiles get Harvested & Raptured via the Dead and the living being taken to Heave to marry the Lamb (Jesus). Now during the 70th week Israel must ATONE just as Dan. 9:24-27 states, and they do as Zech. 13:8-9 says, just before the DOTL (Zech. 14:1) and thus this fulfills the Day of Atonement. Finally we see the Jews dwelling with Jesus for 1000 years during the Kingdom Age fulfilling the Feast of Tabernacles.

The 7 Feasts are about Israel and the whole world she lives in, the Passover was Jesus dying for us all, Jesus not having ever sinned allows us all to be forgiven, Jesus overcoming death allows us all to overcome the curse of death Adam fell into, the Church Age is about both Jews an Gentiles, thus the Harvest concerns us all. The Rapture of the Church with both Jews and Gentiles concern us all, the Atonement of Israel concerns only them, the mostly Gentile Church is in Heaven by this time, God needs a Seed of Abraham saved so Jesus can fulfill God's Promises unto Abraham. Jesus dwell with Israel during the Kingdom Age, not Gentiles. So, the Feasts are about us all, until we are Raptured, then the last two Feasts are about Israel only. So, its more complex than most people realize. Its God foretelling the whole History of the world, as a matter of fact "Holy Convocations" simply means Dress Rehearsals.

The seven trumpets of Rev. 8 & 9 are the voice of God in Judgment upon the rebellious and His call to repentance.

The 7 Trumpets: God`s Call to Repentance & Judgment.

But by that time the Last Trump (Harvest Trump) has sounded, you are conflating Judgment Trumps with the Last Trump if the Harvest which ends the harvest season (Church Age).

`Then the angel took the censer; filled it with fire from the altar, and threw it to earth. And there were noises, thundering, lightnings and an earthquake. So the 7 angels who had the 7 trumpets prepared themselves to sound.` (Rev. 8: 5 & 6)

The time for the purification of Israel and judgment upon the Nations has come.

Note the blowing of the trumpets was a priestly activity and thus we see Christ the High Priest controlling this from the heavenly sanctuary. It was only when Christ as the angel threw the fire to the earth that the 7 angels prepared to sound.

The mistake people make is in THE TIMING, its the most important thing, yet most people to not grasp this. Zech. 13:8-9 shows Israel repents just before the DOTL arrives in Zech. 14:1, thus the Rev. 8 Trumps happen just after Israel (144,000 is a code) repents and flees Judea. So, Israel repents before Judgment comes as Zech. shows.

The Fire is merely the incoming Asteroid that God has preordained to hit us long ago, on April 13, 2029 (DOTL) The Angels can not sound until the 7th Seal is loosed. The 7 Seals are merely God/Jesus foretelling us what the Trumpet Judgments bring, 7 = divine completion. All of the judgments are in the 7 Trumps. No judgments are in the 7 seals.

 

[atpollard]

I pretty much agree.

Though we don't know the day or hour...we can know the season. I believe were near the end of the season.

Certainly within a thousand years ... two-thousand at the outside.

 

[CrowCross]

Certainly within a thousand years ... two-thousand at the outside.

Why not several years?

 

[atpollard]

Why not several years?

That is certainly a possibility ... Christians have thought it "soon" for 2000 years so far.

2035 is the best guess at the earliest window of opportunity. The gospel must be preached "to the ends of the earth" first.

• I am not sure about the progress on the Macedonian Project - to translate the Bible into EVERY language in existence.
• "One Hope" is a para-church ministry with the humble goal of reaching every child on the earth with the gospel. They claim to be on target for achieving that goal by sometime around 2035.
• So I see "2035" as a "NO EARLIER THAN" date - but certainly no guarantee that He will come in this millennium.

(On the other hand, the number of GOD THINGS that have surprised me ... let's just be kind and say "What do I know?" and leave it at that.)

 

[CrowCross]

That is certainly a possibility ... Christians have thought it "soon" for 2000 years so far.

True, but the economy and technology for the Beast System is only recent.

We can discuss and compare the technology of then to now if you like.

2035 is the best guess at the earliest window of opportunity. The gospel must be preached "to the ends of the earth" first.

• I am not sure about the progress on the Macedonian Project - to translate the Bible into EVERY language in existence.
• "One Hope" is a para-church ministry with the humble goal of reaching every child on the earth with the gospel. They claim to be on target for achieving that goal by sometime around 2035.
• So I see "2035" as a "NO EARLIER THAN" date - but certainly no guarantee that He will come in this millennium.

(On the other hand, the number of GOD THINGS that have surprised me ... let's just be kind and say "What do I know?" and leave it at that.)

 

[Rockerduck]

Christians should know and see the signs of Jesus's coming.

1 Thessalonians 5:2-4 - For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.

Expect the unexpected

 

[atpollard]

We can discuss and compare the technology of then to now if you like.

If you want to make Revelation LITERAL ... I could use more help with the SWORD sticking out of Jesus' mouth.

[Did I mention that I hate Eschatology ]

 

[CrowCross]

If you want to make Revelation LITERAL ... I could use more help with the SWORD sticking out of Jesus' mouth.

[Did I mention that I hate Eschatology ]

Parts of Revelation are literal and some parts are not.

When Revelations speaks of Jesus' return...is that literal?

 

[atpollard]

Parts of Revelation are literal and some parts are not.

When Revelations speaks of Jesus' return...is that literal?

Actually, in my translation [NASB], the word “return” appears nowhere in Revelation. So you will need to be more specific about what you are looking at if I am to answer.

I think Acts 1:9-11 is literal:

And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were watching, and a cloud took Him up, out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, then behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them, and they said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”​

Which runs contrary to meeting Jesus in the air, second return, 1000 year kingdom on earth, third return to defeat Satan, and a new heaven and earth narrative (As I have seen in some timelines). I think there is more symbolism in Revelation than people give credit for.

 

[ammi]

.

 

[ammi]

Lets have a fun discussion.

Matt.24:36 - " No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, ( Jesus ) but only the Father ( God the Father ). This is talking about the RAPTURE as in a traditional Jewish wedding, the son gets engaged first and then he goes away to his fathers house to prepare a place ( Bridal Chamber ) for her - ( John14:2-3 ) and comes back like a thief in the night to FETCH his bride, when his father tells him to. That is why Jesus ( even though He is God also ) said only His Father Knows. Now as for Jesus' 2nd coming to set up His 1,000 year Kingdom on earth, it will be EXACTLY 2,520 Days after the 7 year Tribulation starts or exactly 1,260 days from the middle of the Tribulation also known as the Great Tribulation - Matt.24:29 - He will come - "Immediately after the Tribulation of those days...". This is one of several proofs that the Rapture and 2nd coming are TWO separate evens , and NOT the same event as many believe - because in the Rapture, the DAY is UNKNOWN and in the 2nd coming, the Exact DAY will be KNOWN once the 7 year Tribulation STARTS, when a peace treaty is put in force by the Anti-Christ between Israel & the Arab block of nations, then those who are left behind from the Rapture can start the count down to Christs' return to earth to set up His Kingdom - exactly 7 biblical years of 360 days each or 2,520 days. How do I Know the Church ( True Born Again Believers ) will be caught up ( Raptured - 1 Thess.4:16-17 ) before the 7 year Tribulation starts? Answer -Rev.3:10 - The church of Philadelphia which represents the True born again believers of this current age, will be KEPT OUT OF ( Greek word EK - out of , not perseveration through ) the time of trial ( Tribulation ) that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. Thus the RESTRAINING ministry of the Holy Spirit ( The Church ) will be taken ( Raptured ) out of the way so the Anti-Christ can be REVEALED -( 2 Thess.2:6-8 ), as we are NOT appointed to Wrath, but the Salvation through Jesus Christ - 1 Thess.5:9.

hope this helps !!!

No one but the Father...and He ain't telling me!

 

[CrowCross]

Actually, in my translation [NASB], the word “return” appears nowhere in Revelation. So you will need to be more specific about what you are looking at if I am to answer.

In Rev 22 Jesus says....7“Behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of prophecy in this book.”

Is that "coming" not a return?

I think Acts 1:9-11 is literal:

And after He had said these things, He was lifted up while they were watching, and a cloud took Him up, out of their sight. And as they were gazing intently into the sky while He was going, then behold, two men in white clothing stood beside them, and they said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”​

Which runs contrary to meeting Jesus in the air, second return, 1000 year kingdom on earth, third return to defeat Satan, and a new heaven and earth narrative (As I have seen in some timelines). I think there is more symbolism in Revelation than people give credit for.

Are the two witnesses...purely symbolic?

 

[atpollard]

In Rev 22 Jesus says....7“Behold, I am coming soon. Blessed is the one who keeps the words of prophecy in this book.”

Is that "coming" not a return?

Thank you. "Revelation" (the whole book) was too vague for me to answer your question when the exact wording (return) did not appear (so I could not locate the specific verse in Revelation that you were thinking of).

This answer will suck, but ...
Q. Is that "coming" not a return? [Revelation 22:7]
A. "That coming probably is a return". I am inclined to take ALL of Revelation with a large grain of salt when it comes to claiming any part of it is "LITERAL". It is a vision, so it is by its nature 'metaphysical' and it is rampant with spiritual TRUTHS expressed through dramatic symbolism. From elsewhere in Scripture, we know that there is a LITERAL return of Jesus, so that reference to Jesus coming may have been intended as literal.

Let me ask you ... was it literally "soon"? [John's original readers expected to be alive to see the day, as did Paul's original readers; so maybe there is SOME symbolism in Revelation 22:7?]

Are the two witnesses...purely symbolic?

No. Acts is not a symbolic book recording a vision, it is a historic account of what eye-witnesses saw and heard recorded by Luke. There are also no dragons eating women in Acts or people with swords in their mouths in Acts.

I do not doubt that Jesus will return, I am merely cautious using images from a vision as symbolic as Revelation as LITERAL and future historical events. That does not fit with much of the rest of the Revelation prose unless you are expecting sword tongues and dragons as also future literal historic events.

 

[CrowCross]

Thank you. "Revelation" (the whole book) was too vague for me to answer your question when the exact wording (return) did not appear (so I could not locate the specific verse in Revelation that you were thinking of).

This answer will suck, but ...
Q. Is that "coming" not a return? [Revelation 22:7]
A. "That coming probably is a return". I am inclined to take ALL of Revelation with a large grain of salt when it comes to claiming any part of it is "LITERAL". It is a vision, so it is by its nature 'metaphysical' and it is rampant with spiritual TRUTHS expressed through dramatic symbolism. From elsewhere in Scripture, we know that there is a LITERAL return of Jesus, so that reference to Jesus coming may have been intended as literal.

Let me ask you ... was it literally "soon"? [John's original readers expected to be alive to see the day, as did Paul's original readers; so maybe there is SOME symbolism in Revelation 22:7?]


No. Acts is not a symbolic book recording a vision, it is a historic account of what eye-witnesses saw and heard recorded by Luke. There are also no dragons eating women in Acts or people with swords in their mouths in Acts.

I do not doubt that Jesus will return, I am merely cautious using images from a vision as symbolic as Revelation as LITERAL and future historical events. That does not fit with much of the rest of the Revelation prose unless you are expecting sword tongues and dragons as also future literal historic events.

You can believe the way you want to believe...but, when you look around..the beast system is easy to recognize.
When you look at the WEF and the advancemt and implementation of their new world order...great reset plans....When you look at the current plans for a cashlesh society....when you see the technology being developed and implemented that would allow for a Rev 13 scenario to occur....when you see AI increasing literally by leaps and bounds.....

People will fall in line and accept the beast system....just as people put on their mask (if they wanted to buy groceries) or took the covid jab...or Canadians had their bank accounts turned off...if they financially support the truckers.

As to the return of Christ, Jesus comes back twice. The first time at the rapture and the second time to claim earth.

 

[atpollard]

As to the return of Christ, Jesus comes back twice. The first time at the rapture and the second time to claim earth.

In 3.5 years, when we are snatched out of our clothes, you can get one last "told you so" before we are perfected.

or

In 1000 years, when we rise from our graves, I can get one last "told you so" before we are perfected.