No one knows the Day or the Hour !

[Carbon]

@civic
I'm going to guess somewhere around here and the definition of Israel. /popcorn

Can you explain this yourself? Or do you really need someone to explain it to you? Maybe you're just guessing and hoping? If so, I'm sorry, no pressure.

 

[Carbon]

@civic
I'm going to guess somewhere around here and the definition of Israel. /popcorn

If you would rather use websites instead of us interacting, here. Hope this helps.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/the-ninety-five-theses-against-dispensationalism.590/

 

[civic]

If you would rather use websites instead of us interacting, here. Hope this helps.

https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/the-ninety-five-theses-against-dispensationalism.590/

No thanks I have 66 books that refute the 95

 

[Carbon]

No thanks I have 66 books that refute the 95

Actually you don't. Those 66 books teach one plan of salvation. I'd be careful to disagree there.

 

[Carbon]

No thanks I have 66 books that refute the 95

Remember also, brother. This is a forum, if you want to discuss these things and prove them wrong then do so. These short statements dont prove anything. Mainly they are deceptive and show ignorance. Just sayin.

{EDIT} Did I mention quite boastful?

 

[civic]

Remember also, brother. This is a forum, if you want to discuss these things and prove them wrong then do so. These short statements dont prove anything. Mainly they are deceptive and show ignorance. Just sayin.

Kind of like claiming Jesus is the “ true “ Israel of God with no scripture stating it’s true.

 

[Carbon]

Kind of like claiming Jesus is the “ true “ Israel of God with no scripture stating it’s true.

Plenty of scripture. You don't want to stick around and see it. You jumped out and started your own thread. Denying God's one plan of salvation.
You're walking the fence brother, I'd be careful with that. You should reconsider God's one and only plan of salvation.

 

[Carbon]

Kind of like claiming Jesus is the “ true “ Israel of God with no scripture stating it’s true.

Ha, I was only repeating and agreeing with the apostles.

I gave you the scriptures.

 

[civic]

Plenty of scripture. You don't want to stick around and see it. You jumped out and started your own thread. Denying God's one plan of salvation.
You're walking the fence brother, I'd be careful with that. You should reconsider God's one and only plan of salvation.

I'm in good standing within orthodoxy, Christianity with my beliefs. If things were black and white this forum wouldn't exist and we would all be either Arminians or calvinists. But the fact is within Christianity both Arminians and Calvinists are brothers/sisters in Christ. Not everyone believes the same as everyone else on everything. Its the "essentials" things that are salvific that matter most that have to do with heaven and hell. Fundamentals like the Trur God vs false god, True Christ vs false christ, True Gospel vs false gospel etc.....

hope this helps !!!

 

[armylngst]

Maybe you can show where Amillennialism has an issue with Romans 11. I assure you, they do not.

Amillennialism (especially amillennialism partnered with partial preterism) believes God has rejected the Jews completely and utterly. Replacement theology. Due note that this feature tends to be the result of the corruption/damage the Catholic Church did to eschatology, as a driver of anti-Jewish sentiment. Martin Luther is a symptom of this. He had NO love loss for the Jewish people.

This is counter to a true rendering/reading of Romans 11. While there is no attempt to say that all Israel (as in every individual that has ever lived) will be saved, Paul is speaking to us about the comfort he has found in God regarding his own people. He is also judging those who are anti-Jewish reminding them that as easily as God removed Israel from the vine, he could/would remove them in like manner, and put Israel right back in. Israel being removed was solely for unbelief. Those who believed were left, and those who would come to believe would be put right back on. It is the lack of understanding of this passage that has caused issues, mixed in with the general hatred that the early Catholic church had for the Jewish people. Have you read about what the Crusaders did to the Jews while on their way to the Holy Land? It isn't pretty.

When Jesus returns, after the times of the Gentiles have been fulfilled (where the gospel and salvation proliferate through the Gentile population due to the rejection of the gospel by the nation of Israel, all of Israel will be saved. (That is, all who managed to survive all God is going to do to the world, not just Israel, will be saved at Christ's return. All who are left will be the remnant that did not reject God. To the calvinist, that would be, God's elect within the nation of Israel, who did not join the church, but are saved at Christ's return. The ultimate fulfillment of God's promises to the nation of Israel.)

The original amillennialism doesn't have all the baggage that the Catholic Church added, but there is still a tinge of the anger/hatred that existed due to the treatment of the church by the Jews in the 1st/2nd centuries which led to Rome's persecution of the church. (So you can see that it is justifiable in human terms.) However, that anger/hatred should have dissipated centuries/millennia ago.

 

[Carbon]

Amillennialism (especially amillennialism partnered with partial preterism) believes God has rejected the Jews completely and utterly.

Right at the start you are wrong. God always had a remnant.
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. Romans 11.
So, whats your issue?

 

[armylngst]

Right at the start you are wrong. God always had a remnant.
I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. Romans 11.

So, whats your issue?

I told you that you may not have that issue, but preterism is steeped in it, and amillennialism is not unscathed. It is the issue with labeled beliefs. If you label yourself, then you take upon yourself all the baggage of that belief. This is why I keep saying that I am not a straight up calvinist, but use it so I don't have to give a doctoral thesis to explain what I believe. Most of what I believe is in line with what is found in Calvinism. All I have to do is explain where I may differ. My beliefs are more in line with dispensational premillennialism, but I am not a dispy. I may identify more with them because of futuristist premillennialism, and Israel's part in it, but that is about it My unscheduled naps identify with dispensationalism and covenant theology. (To be honest, I didn't sleep all the way through those classes, but I did find it impossible to stay awake.)

Do you have an issue with Paul saying "and all Israel shall be saved", and me telling you that that is exactly what is going to happen. All Israel will be saved, and Paul is NOT talking about the church. He is speaking of the nation of Israel that exists outside of the church. I explained that when this happens, and all Israel is saved, it will be that only God's remnant is still alive. Everyone else dies during Jacob's trouble. So, literally, all Israel will be saved. (All who survive.)

 

[Carbon]

I told you that you may not have that issue, but preterism is steeped in it, and amillennialism is not unscathed. It is the issue with labeled beliefs. If you label yourself, then you take upon yourself all the baggage of that belief. This is why I keep saying that I am not a straight up calvinist, but use it so I don't have to give a doctoral thesis to explain what I believe. Most of what I believe is in line with what is found in Calvinism.

There is no perfect system. But you already know that.

All I have to do is explain where I may differ. My beliefs are more in line with dispensational premillennialism, but I am not a dispy. I may identify more with them because of futuristist premillennialism, and Israel's part in it, but that is about it My unscheduled naps identify with dispensationalism and covenant theology. (To be honest, I didn't sleep all the way through those classes, but I did find it impossible to stay awake.)

Do you have an issue with Paul saying "and all Israel shall be saved", and me telling you that that is exactly what is going to happen. All Israel will be saved, and Paul is NOT talking about the church. He is speaking of the nation of Israel that exists outside of the church. I explained that when this happens, and all Israel is saved, it will be that only God's remnant is still alive. Everyone else dies during Jacob's trouble. So, literally, all Israel will be saved. (All who survive.)

Well bro, your dispensationalism is shining through with this. I agree all Israel shall be saved. Scripture says so. But we are not talking about national Israel, but spiritual Israel.

 

[armylngst]

There is no perfect system. But you already know that.



Well bro, your dispensationalism is shining through with this. I agree all Israel shall be saved. Scripture says so. But we are not talking about national Israel, but spiritual Israel.

They are part of Israel. I thought that would be clear after reading God's conversation with Elijah. Paul does speak of those who are truly Israel, that is, the elect who will be saved by Christ. They are NOT part of the church, because they aren't saved. They are still unsaved. They are non-believers right now. That doesn't make them any less God's Ephesians 1 chosen people, the elect.

They will be saved at the end of the tribulation. Zechariah 12. Jesus will visit them personally. God will pour out repentance and grace on Israel, and they will look upon Him whom the have pierced, and they will mourn Him. They will ALL mourn Him, tribe by tribe, family by family. They are all the elect of God, and God is finally gathering them in. A national salvation of God's chosen elect of the nation of Israel.

You need to get that understanding. All those who are of the rebellious, unbelieving Israel, who are sealed in that, have already been crushed by God. They are gone. Only the remnant remains. And all of them will be saved at this time. (The only thing I can think of when I think/write about this, is it will be glorious. We all get to watch God's final redemption of His people, front row seats. Final reconciliation.)

 

[Carbon]

They are part of Israel. I thought that would be clear after reading God's conversation with Elijah. Paul does speak of those who are truly Israel, that is, the elect who will be saved by Christ. They are NOT part of the church, because they aren't saved. They are still unsaved. They are non-believers right now. That doesn't make them any less God's Ephesians 1 chosen people, the elect.

They will be saved at the end of the tribulation. Zechariah 12. Jesus will visit them personally. God will pour out repentance and grace on Israel, and they will look upon Him whom the have pierced, and they will mourn Him. They will ALL mourn Him, tribe by tribe, family by family. They are all the elect of God, and God is finally gathering them in. A national salvation of God's chosen elect of the nation of Israel.

You need to get that understanding.

I need to get that understanding. What gives you that idea? I think you are wrong.

All those who are of the rebellious, unbelieving Israel, who are sealed in that, have already been crushed by God. They are gone. Only the remnant remains. And all of them will be saved at this time. (The only thing I can think of when I think/write about this, is it will be glorious. We all get to watch God's final redemption of His people, front row seats. Final reconciliation.)

As I said, all Israel shall be saved. Spiritual Israel.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

My beliefs are more in line with dispensational premillennialism, but I am not a dispy. I may identify more with them because of futuristist premillennialism, and Israel's part in it, but that is about it My unscheduled naps identify with dispensationalism and covenant theology. (To be honest, I didn't sleep all the way through those classes, but I did find it impossible to stay awake.)

Pre-mil Futurists are rare birds. Being one as well I feel ya. Step outside "historical" pre-mil an iota and you will be lumped into dispensationalist right or wrong. Eventually I just gave up trying to explain.

If you ever want to revisit Dispensationalism and Covenant theology without intrusive sleep I'd suggest talking long walks while listening to audio. Do it enough and the points seep in as well as some good exercise.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

As I said, all Israel shall be saved. Spiritual Israel.

Trouble is, brother, there is no such critter as "Spiritual Israel" and you know it. It's a made up label and it's use is guaranteed to tick off those who have explained the concept too you many many times. Your being an "ex-dispensationalist" makes your use of it even more unexplainable.

Personally it seems to me that you are looking for a fight. Which is why I left off even trying with you and others here. Here again are 3 books from smallest ( really the most important ) to largest. If you actually care about the subject have fun.

Dispensationalism: Essential Beliefs and Common Myths

Is the Church Israel?

Dispensationalism, Israel and the Church

 

[armylngst]

I need to get that understanding. What gives you that idea? I think you are wrong.


As I said, all Israel shall be saved. Spiritual Israel.

You do know that in Replacement Theology, Spiritual Israel means the church right? And why? Because the proponents of Replacement Theology teach that God has rejected Israel, and the church is now Spiritual Israel. All the promises and blessings of the Old Testament directed at Israel, are now the domain of the church. However, all the curses remain on Israel. This is what Paul was arguing against in Romans 11. He even says "

"17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a partaker with them of the [f]rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast against them, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right! They were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be haughty, but fear, 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either."

"22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?"

 

[Carbon]

Trouble is, brother, there is no such critter as "Spiritual Israel" and you know it.

That's your denial brother. Scripture teaches it clearly.

It's a made up label and it's use is guaranteed to tick off those who have explained the concept too you many many times.

I believe you are wrong bro. And I have tried to show you this many times

Your being an "ex-dispensationalist" makes your use of it even more unexplainable.

That's your opinion. These very words you use are made to create problems.

Personally it seems to me that you are looking for a fight. Which is why I left off even trying with you and others here. Here again are 3 books from smallest ( really the most important ) to largest. If you actually care about the subject have fun.

Dispensationalism: Essential Beliefs and Common Myths

Is the Church Israel?

Dispensationalism, Israel and the Church

I'm not looking for a fight. Your just soft skinned and unable to debate.

 

[Carbon]

Trouble is, brother, there is no such critter as "Spiritual Israel" and you know it. It's a made up label and it's use is guaranteed to tick off those who have explained the concept too you many many times. Your being an "ex-dispensationalist" makes your use of it even more unexplainable.

Personally it seems to me that you are looking for a fight. Which is why I left off even trying with you and others here. Here again are 3 books from smallest ( really the most important ) to largest. If you actually care about the subject have fun.

Dispensationalism: Essential Beliefs and Common Myths

Is the Church Israel?

Dispensationalism, Israel and the Church

If I actually cared about the subject I would study it. Which I did, with both dispy's stuff and covenant theology stuff. The later is biblical.