Man must exercise his free will?

[Carbon]

According to Arminians (Synergists), a man must exercise his will to believe. If that be the case, why did Paul preclude man’s will?

So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. Romans 9:16.

 

[Josheb]

(josh pulls up chair, sits, and awaits an Arminian reply)
.

 

[Josheb]

According to Arminians (Synergists), a man must exercise his will to believe. If that be the case, why did Paul preclude man’s will?

So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. Romans 9:16.

(If I may be allowed to play advocate for the Arminian for a moment,.....) That specific verse is about mercy, not salvation. Yes, it is an example - an explicit and overt example - of God's word unequivocally denying any and all human volitional agency (and the efficacy of human action), but it pertains solely to God's mercy and not other aspects of salvation. I, as someone who does not believe sinful human action can or does accomplish anything salvific, will acknowledge there exist other aspects of salvation but will argue they are ALL predicated one way or another on the mercy of God so - by the extension of logical necessity, but only by that extension - that verse is relevant. At some point (and I would further argue that point is at the foundational level) everything else must run through that monergistic point.

My Arminian brothers in Christ can respond to the op accordingly .

 

[ReverendRV]

I'd say Justification depends on Man's Freed Will, but Election does not depend on Man's Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will...

Provisionists read the Verse and hear us say Salvation doesn't depend on the Will. But we really mean Election doesn't depend on the Will, and Election is not Salvation. Justification through Faith IS Salvation Proper; and depends on our Freed Will...

 

[Carbon]

(If I may be allowed to play advocate for the Arminian for a moment,.....) That specific verse is about mercy, not salvation.

Read it in context.

 

[Josheb]

I'd say Justification depends on Man's Freed Will, but Election does not depend on Man's Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will...

Provisionists read the Verse and hear us say Salvation doesn't depend on the Will. But we really mean Election doesn't depend on the Will, and Election is not Salvation. Justification through Faith IS Salvation Proper; and depends on our Freed Will...

I like that but when I say the sinfully dead and enslaved sinner's will is irrelevant, I mean exactly that. That will cannot accomplish anything and has no power or merit, and it is one of the things from which the dead slave is saved.

 

[Carbon]

I'd say Justification depends on Man's Freed Will, but Election does not depend on Man's Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will...

Provisionists read the Verse and hear us say Salvation doesn't depend on the Will. But we really mean Election doesn't depend on the Will, and Election is not Salvation. Justification through Faith IS Salvation Proper; and depends on our Freed Will...

Interesting.
I'd say justification depends on God, it's by man's free will (choice) because of his new nature.

 

[ReverendRV]

Interesting.
I'd say justification depends on God, it's by man's free will (choice) because of his new nature.

That's why said through Faith instead of by Faith...

When A and B are required, B can be a Means without being a Cause. When 'Through' is required even only as a Means, there is an Irredecubly Complex formula...

 

[Carbon]

That's why said through Faith instead of by Faith...

When A and B are required, B can be a Means without being a Cause. When 'Through' is required even only as a Means, there is an Irredecubly Complex formula...

I should have read more carefully. Sorry bro.

 

[ReverendRV]

I should have read more carefully. Sorry bro.

As Calvinists, we Love, LOVE Love Sola Gratia. But we should Love Sola Fide just as much, if not more. Why let Provisionists Love Sola Fide more than we do?

 

[Josheb]

Read it in context.

Right back at you. The context is God's (monergistic) mercy AND that mercy is a component of salvation ("and so all Israel will be saved") exactly as I posted.

Why am I being directed to do what has already been done?

 

[Carbon]

Right back at you. The context is God's (monergistic) mercy AND that mercy is a component of salvation ("and so all Israel will be saved") exactly as I posted.

Why am I being directed to do what has already been done?

It's not about being a child of God, or about salvation, life everlasting, and mercy?

 

[Josheb]

It's not about being a child of God, or about salvation, life everlasting, and mercy?

?????

I have answered that question already (see Post #11).

Right back at you. The context is God's (monergistic) mercy AND that mercy is a component of salvation ("and so all Israel will be saved") exactly as I posted.

Why am I being directed to do what has already been done?

The larger narrative is about salvation but verse 16 is not specifically so. Verse 16 is specifically about mercy, not salvation.

Romans 9:15-16
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then, it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

is MUCH different than...


For he says to Moses, “I will have salvation on whom I have salvation, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then, it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has salvation.


Mercy and salvation are not synonymous! That is the fact of scripture, not an Arminian or Calvinist matter.

 

[David1701]

I'd say Justification depends on Man's Freed Will, but Election does not depend on Man's Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will...

Provisionists read the Verse and hear us say Salvation doesn't depend on the Will. But we really mean Election doesn't depend on the Will, and Election is not Salvation. Justification through Faith IS Salvation Proper; and depends on our Freed Will...

Hmm...

Justification does not depend upon man's will at all, nor is faith said to depend upon man's will. Justification is by God's grace, through faith, but there is no mention of either depending upon the will of man.

 

[ReverendRV]

Hmm...

Justification does not depend upon man's will at all, nor is faith said to depend upon man's will. Justification is by God's grace, through faith, but there is no mention of either depending upon the will of man.

Theology mentions it Brother; ask Martin Luther...

 

[makesends]

Theology mentions it Brother; ask Martin Luther...

Does Scripture mention it? That the will of man is entirely "enroiled" (sorry, but I like that made-up word) in the work of God, in which God regenerates and gives faith, does not indicate that the will of man produces salvation, in ANY respect. Salvation, which is through faith, is still ENTIRELY by grace.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Theology mentions it Brother; ask Martin Luther...

Can you provide the reference from Luther? Thanks in advance.

 

[David1701]

Theology mentions it Brother; ask Martin Luther...

Can you quote the relevant Scriptures?

 

[Ladodgers6]

Theology mentions it Brother; ask Martin Luther...

I do not think Luther said this. Because in his book, "Bondage of the Will", he makes a case for the necessity of Total Regeneration.

 

[Carbon]

I'd say Justification depends on Man's Freed Will, but Election does not depend on Man's Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will...

I can see why you would say this, and if I am right about why you say this, I agree.
We are justified by faith. Once regenerated, the new man in Christ possesses this gift of faith and finds himself willingly believing. But ultimately, I believe it depends on God Himself. Because if a man isn't regenerated, he won't believe.

Provisionists read the Verse and hear us say Salvation doesn't depend on the Will. But we really mean Election doesn't depend on the Will, and Election is not Salvation. Justification through Faith IS Salvation Proper; and depends on our Freed Will...

One major problem is, that they think such is because they really have no clue, scripture does not connect the dots for them with their human wisdom. They think it does, but it does not. They cannot comprehend the fact of regeneration before faith and how it affects a man.