What is the difference between God intending for something to happen and God decreeing it to happen? I mean, what is the practical difference? It seems to me that that would be a distinction without a difference.
He intended for man to fall short of the mark, but he did not decree it or ordain it??? Yes, take a breath. Reformed theology is getting strange.
No, I am demonstrating the dark view of God that ultimately comes from reformed theology and the scrambled eggs from one trying to defend it. God intends but does not decree. God intends, but He does not ordain. What are the chances that God's intentions will not come to fruition? Sin is part of this world. Are you now saying that it is outside of God's sovereignty?
{edited. Off topic. About the poster not the post.}
I have exhausted it and found a very dark picture of God emerges. Not a savior of the world but a savior of the few. A God who intended sin for a man and punishes the many who never had a chance and were doomed to spend eternity separated from God. Created as a fodder for hell. A god who intended all of the pain, degradation, chaos, wars, suffering, and brutality. Who intended for all the blood to spilled on this mortal coil? But the theologians wrap it in jargon and use their selected texts, never once asking themselves if they might be the ones left out.
I have many times but perhaps you missed them. Pre- before destination- the point of and end to a journey. In theology it is the idea that God has a destination already picked out for those who come to him.
And as usual, you go out of your way to miss the point @Arial was making. Try to deal honestly with us. You will get a lot more respect.
Beforehand prior to creating creation, not beforehand to after creating creation.
Does He know who He will save before He saves them?
And I am saying and have said, this discussion is about "Those He foreknew, He also predestined, and those He predestined He also called, and those He called, He also justified, and those He justified, He also glorified." and relating that passage to who God reveals Himself to be. Not the entire teaching of Reformed theology on ordination. If that is what you want to discuss, then start a thread on it, instead of avoiding the topic at hand by sending it down a rabbit trail filled with hostility and judgement based entirely on one's perception of God.
Everyone who comes against Reformed theology says they have studied it thoroughly and then demonstrate by what they say that they have not. You are not exception. If it is looked into at all beyond the what the letters stand for in TULIP, it becomes obvious that it was investigated with an intense bias against hearing anything that disrupts their shallow, man centered, view of God, and no with no thought to comprehension given. After all, how is a person supposed to believe that someone could comprehend the teachings of Reformed theology, the Bible, or anything when they cannot even comprehend that eternal life means eternal life. But if you absolutely must talk about the entire Reformed teaching on ordaining and decree, if you just must have a place to vent your dark picture, I will start a thread on it for you to do so when I get time. I will call it "Coming Against Reformed Theology" and direct you to it. In the meantime, you can do so in other portions of this thread with other posters if you like, but between you and me and anyone else engaged in this particular discussion as defined above, it is off limits. It causes us to never actually address the passage of Romans head on through a who God is view. It is just a way of avoiding it. And of course if you do not want to continue that discussion, just say so. No problem.
It is truly a miracle that you have been given the ability to see into the minds and hearts, just like God! of every Reformed theologian. (Would you call your statement a logical fallacy or would you also deny that?)
"And those He foreknew, He also predestined, and those He predestined, He also called, and those He called, He also justified, and those He justified, He also glorified"
Someone else can take that up with you if they so desire, but it is not my focus in my part of the discussion I am attempting to have with you on one particular passage in which we are trying to arrive at a God centered view of that passage. I have already indulged your deflection from that more than I should have.
Straw man. I do face the realities of sin. False dichotomy. If I disagree with you or do not respond to you or fall for the emotion driven presentation does not mean I do not face the reality of sin. There may be some other reason entirely. Red herring. You are distracting from the actual aim of the start of our conversation by placing in it something that does not relate to it.
Sorry, but it relates directly. It is part and parcel of a consequence if reformed the is correct. It is inescapable. That’s why it is ignored.
Excuse me, but it is your deflection not mine.
Absolutely faults. I’ve addressed every single one of them but you just don’t wanna hear it.
The ones who claim to have stated cannot coherently explain a thing that makes sense.
No, and you know it. Just name one reformed theologian who says you know what I’m lost and there’s nothing I can do about it. Do you know that you’re saved?
Off topic. And needs to be worded in a way that makes sense.
An incoherent statement charging ones of being incoherent. Off topic. Argumentative. Aimed at poster not post.
I did not say you didn't address the scripture or posts. I said you never applied the OT quotes on who God is to them. And it should be "false" not "faults."
Of topic. Argumentative only. About the poster not the post.
1. No it doesn't. The discussion is not does God predestine or ordain everything. It is, does He ordain some to come to Christ because He chose them before the foundation of the world and predestine them to come to Christ in faith or does He predestine them to come to Christ because He saw/learned that they would?
God knows who will be saved from the foundation of the Earth. It is not who he will save it who will respond to his salvation.
He knew those who would respond to his salvation.
He chooses the ones who respond to him. To those who receive him.
He draws all men. "If I am lifted up, I will draw all men onto me." Before the cross, the Father drew men to Christ, men that were to establish His church. Christ lifted up on the cross now draws all men to him. Some resist but not everyone.
Before the Cross God gave men to Jesus to help establish His church. Now Christ offers directly, come onto me all you who are heavy laden. And yes He knew that He would give to Christ all who would receive Him
Yes, all who will submit.
Omniscience
