What s Free Will?

[Arial]

Truthfully, there is no such thing. And here is why. The will involves the choices we make. It always does what it most desires, and indeed it is free to do so. Something must be in our mind that moves our will, our choices one way or the other.

For example, one may desire to skydive out of a plane for the experience of doing so would give them. At the same time they know they are afraid of heights, know there will be a point before jumping of fear of the possibility of failure of gear, or being frozen by fear, the potential of great harm or death being the end result of jumping out of that plane. And this is much stronger that any imagined pleasure in skydiving, and our will, or choice is "No. Not ever!"

And here we run smack into the no freedom of the will. Our will is free to move us in the direction of our desires, it can do what we desire, but it cannot do what we do not desire.

If we move this into the place free will is usually moved in order to state that God gave us free will, therefore it is up to us to choose Christ, if our doctrine leading up to this place is sound according to the scriptures, that God is holy, and we are sinners alienated from Him, we will find a very interesting conclusion. If we insist on free will to choose Christ in spite of all the evidence concerning the will that has been pointed out, we will simply ignore it and keep repeating our free will belief in spite of the logical evidence given in the scriptures. We will care more about our comfort in our belief, for whatever reason, than whether it is true or not. We will continue to trust in our supposed free will choice for Christ, rather than trust God who says if you believe in the person and work of Christ, I have saved you.

In our natural fallen state, we do not desire God. The Bible tells us we are at enmity with Him. We have sinful desires and we take pleasure in them. We also have desires that are not sinful, but it remains that we sin because we are sinners. The unregenerate man does not see his sins as sin against God. The unregenerate man does not even like the word sin, and often scoffs at and mocks it. It is an old fashioned word to them, that is the product of "Jesus freaks." And to them it is one part of society trying to control all parts of society, restraining their fun.

Let's look at through an example the different reaction to a sin between the unregenerate and regenerate. Those in Christ know the Bible says to be drunk is a sin, mainly I think because many a sin is committed while being drunk. The Bible does not condemn the consumption of alcohol completely but only getting drunk. Which, let's face it is usually the reason for drinking. A Christian may fall victim to this desire, but his remorse the next morning is directed towards the sin he has committed towards God in displeasing Him. And he determines to never do it again, which may come to pass, or may not. Depending on which desire is greater in any particular moment, and his stage in the process of sanctification.

The unregenerate may make the same vow but for an entirely different reason. One that has nothing to do with sin or God, as he does not even consider it a sin. His reason is based solely on the way he feels the next morning if he has a hangover, or the embarrassment or shame he feels if he has made a fool of himself, or hurt someone, or wrecked his car etc. And even if the impact of the night before is so great that he never drinks another drop, he goes on sinning in other ways that he does not recognize as sin and quite likes.

So the unregenerate person cannot choose Christ because he has no desire to, does not know Him, and feels no need of Him. It is like my brother once said before he was placed in Christ and people preached the gospel to him. "Who is this Jesus you talk about and say loves me? I thought He died."

The unregenerate has a will that is free to choose what it desires, but one that is not free to choose what it does not desire. Just as is the case with every choice made.

The one who has been regenerated, something only God can do, has his desires changed by the grace of God. Those desires having been deeply seated in us through Adam, holding us captive to sin. These changed desires are described in scripture as being given a new heart. Not us changing our hearts and desires, but God giving us a new heart, placing us in Christ. Our desire now is for Him (a choice by necessity).

 

[Carbon]

Truthfully, there is no such thing. And here is why. The will involves the choices we make. It always does what it most desires, and indeed it is free to do so. Something must be in our mind that moves our will, our choices one way or the other.

For example, one may desire to skydive out of a plane for the experience of doing so would give them. At the same time they know they are afraid of heights, know there will be a point before jumping of fear of the possibility of failure of gear, or being frozen by fear, the potential of great harm or death being the end result of jumping out of that plane. And this is much stronger that any imagined pleasure in skydiving, and our will, or choice is "No. Not ever!"

And here we run smack into the no freedom of the will. Our will is free to move us in the direction of our desires, it can do what we desire, but it cannot do what we do not desire.

If we move this into the place free will is usually moved in order to state that God gave us free will, therefore it is up to us to choose Christ, if our doctrine leading up to this place is sound according to the scriptures, that God is holy, and we are sinners alienated from Him, we will find a very interesting conclusion. If we insist on free will to choose Christ in spite of all the evidence concerning the will that has been pointed out, we will simply ignore it and keep repeating our free will belief in spite of the logical evidence given in the scriptures. We will care more about our comfort in our belief, for whatever reason, than whether it is true or not. We will continue to trust in our supposed free will choice for Christ, rather than trust God who says if you believe in the person and work of Christ, I have saved you.

In our natural fallen state, we do not desire God. The Bible tells us we are at enmity with Him. We have sinful desires and we take pleasure in them. We also have desires that are not sinful, but it remains that we sin because we are sinners. The unregenerate man does not see his sins as sin against God. The unregenerate man does not even like the word sin, and often scoffs at and mocks it. It is an old fashioned word to them, that is the product of "Jesus freaks." And to them it is one part of society trying to control all parts of society, restraining their fun.

Let's look at through an example the different reaction to a sin between the unregenerate and regenerate. Those in Christ know the Bible says to be drunk is a sin, mainly I think because many a sin is committed while being drunk. The Bible does not condemn the consumption of alcohol completely but only getting drunk. Which, let's face it is usually the reason for drinking. A Christian may fall victim to this desire, but his remorse the next morning is directed towards the sin he has committed towards God in displeasing Him. And he determines to never do it again, which may come to pass, or may not. Depending on which desire is greater in any particular moment, and his stage in the process of sanctification.

The unregenerate may make the same vow but for an entirely different reason. One that has nothing to do with sin or God, as he does not even consider it a sin. His reason is based solely on the way he feels the next morning if he has a hangover, or the embarrassment or shame he feels if he has made a fool of himself, or hurt someone, or wrecked his car etc. And even if the impact of the night before is so great that he never drinks another drop, he goes on sinning in other ways that he does not recognize as sin and quite likes.

So the unregenerate person cannot choose Christ because he has no desire to, does not know Him, and feels no need of Him. It is like my brother once said before he was placed in Christ and people preached the gospel to him. "Who is this Jesus you talk about and say loves me? I thought He died."

The unregenerate has a will that is free to choose what it desires, but one that is not free to choose what it does not desire. Just as is the case with every choice made.

The one who has been regenerated, something only God can do, has his desires changed by the grace of God. Those desires having been deeply seated in us through Adam, holding us captive to sin. These changed desires are described in scripture as being given a new heart. Not us changing our hearts and desires, but God giving us a new heart, placing us in Christ. Our desire now is for Him (a choice by necessity).

Well since you put it that way, I agree.

 

[PeanutGallery]

...
In our natural fallen state, we do not desire God. The Bible tells us we are at enmity with Him. We have sinful desires and we take pleasure in them. We also have desires that are not sinful, but it remains that we sin because we are sinners. The unregenerate man does not see his sins as sin against God. ...

All true; that is why God reaches unto sinful men: creation testifying, law written in the hearts, conscience bearing witness, the Holy Spirit reproving, the gospel the power of God to save those who believe his witnesses.

 

[turbomaniac]

The free will that God Word (Jesus Christ) gave to us is one more expression of His devine love. Setting someone free is the ultimate expression of love even between human relationship. Because we humans have to join God Word at are own free will or else there is no meaning of the creation.

Of course there are consequences if we deny that Jesus Christ is God Word the creator of Heaven and Earth (universe).


As a Saint said "Human sentenced God to death and God condemned human to eternal life"

 

[Mr GLee]

Truthfully, there is no such thing. And here is why. The will involves the choices we make. It always does what it most desires, and indeed it is free to do so. Something must be in our mind that moves our will, our choices one way or the other.

For example, one may desire to skydive out of a plane for the experience of doing so would give them. At the same time they know they are afraid of heights, know there will be a point before jumping of fear of the possibility of failure of gear, or being frozen by fear, the potential of great harm or death being the end result of jumping out of that plane. And this is much stronger that any imagined pleasure in skydiving, and our will, or choice is "No. Not ever!"

And here we run smack into the no freedom of the will. Our will is free to move us in the direction of our desires, it can do what we desire, but it cannot do what we do not desire.

If we move this into the place free will is usually moved in order to state that God gave us free will, therefore it is up to us to choose Christ, if our doctrine leading up to this place is sound according to the scriptures, that God is holy, and we are sinners alienated from Him, we will find a very interesting conclusion. If we insist on free will to choose Christ in spite of all the evidence concerning the will that has been pointed out, we will simply ignore it and keep repeating our free will belief in spite of the logical evidence given in the scriptures. We will care more about our comfort in our belief, for whatever reason, than whether it is true or not. We will continue to trust in our supposed free will choice for Christ, rather than trust God who says if you believe in the person and work of Christ, I have saved you.

In our natural fallen state, we do not desire God. The Bible tells us we are at enmity with Him. We have sinful desires and we take pleasure in them. We also have desires that are not sinful, but it remains that we sin because we are sinners. The unregenerate man does not see his sins as sin against God. The unregenerate man does not even like the word sin, and often scoffs at and mocks it. It is an old fashioned word to them, that is the product of "Jesus freaks." And to them it is one part of society trying to control all parts of society, restraining their fun.

Let's look at through an example the different reaction to a sin between the unregenerate and regenerate. Those in Christ know the Bible says to be drunk is a sin, mainly I think because many a sin is committed while being drunk. The Bible does not condemn the consumption of alcohol completely but only getting drunk. Which, let's face it is usually the reason for drinking. A Christian may fall victim to this desire, but his remorse the next morning is directed towards the sin he has committed towards God in displeasing Him. And he determines to never do it again, which may come to pass, or may not. Depending on which desire is greater in any particular moment, and his stage in the process of sanctification.

The unregenerate may make the same vow but for an entirely different reason. One that has nothing to do with sin or God, as he does not even consider it a sin. His reason is based solely on the way he feels the next morning if he has a hangover, or the embarrassment or shame he feels if he has made a fool of himself, or hurt someone, or wrecked his car etc. And even if the impact of the night before is so great that he never drinks another drop, he goes on sinning in other ways that he does not recognize as sin and quite likes.

So the unregenerate person cannot choose Christ because he has no desire to, does not know Him, and feels no need of Him. It is like my brother once said before he was placed in Christ and people preached the gospel to him. "Who is this Jesus you talk about and say loves me? I thought He died."

The unregenerate has a will that is free to choose what it desires, but one that is not free to choose what it does not desire. Just as is the case with every choice made.

The one who has been regenerated, something only God can do, has his desires changed by the grace of God. Those desires having been deeply seated in us through Adam, holding us captive to sin. These changed desires are described in scripture as being given a new heart. Not us changing our hearts and desires, but God giving us a new heart, placing us in Christ. Our desire now is for Him (a choice by necessity).

I would offer mankind was not created with the "will of anarchy" but a will subject to the living word of God law called "the letter of the law". It is God's instrument of death appointed once to all.. Mankind choose death by eating the food of death the forbidden fruit (I think a almond) Mankind rather than trusting a invisible God did the will of a creature seen .Mankind fell the serpent the father of false prophets, false apostles legs were cut off .No longer walking with God in agreement

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Jesus delivered us from the curse.(letter of the law) He performed what mankind denied doing the will of a invisible God making the Father visible to the world through his obedience .The work of two the witness of one the power of our invisible God

John 4:33-35King James Version33 Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

He ate the proper food strengthening Jesus the Son of man to do the will of our Holy Father.. . . doing the will with delight .Some murrur like Jonah.

God is not served by the dying hands of mankind. Like Peter prophesied . . He must increase

The key is both to reveal the food as daily bread and strengthen us yoked with him to make the burden lighter . . . with a glorious future hope after we take our last breath of oxygen. . . . new bodies that will not lust after sin.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

 

[JIM]

Truthfully, there is no such thing. And here is why. The will involves the choices we make. It always does what it most desires, and indeed it is free to do so. Something must be in our mind that moves our will, our choices one way or the other.

Of course there is such a thing. You described it. It is the choosing in the case where there are multiple possibilities. You are confusing all of that with the considerations and motivations for making the choice. To sin is a choice. Without free will, there is no such thing as sin - PERIOD!

 

[Mr GLee]

Of course there is such a thing. You described it. It is the choosing in the case where there are multiple possibilities. You are confusing all of that with the considerations and motivations for making the choice. To sin is a choice. Without free will, there is no such thing as sin - PERIOD!

Hmmmmm??? How would you know there is no such thing as violating the will of another ????Have you ever violated the will of another Are you married? Do you live in a cave? or a secret place like James Jones of Jonestown ?

Do you live in a dying body as good as dead ?

 

[JIM]

Hmmmmm??? How would you know there is no such thing as violating the will of another ????Have you ever violated the will of another Are you married? Do you live in a cave? or a secret place like James Jones of Jonestown ?

Do you live in a dying body as good as dead ?

What in the world are you talking about? I said nothing about violating the will of another, whatever you think that might mean.

 

[Arial]

Of course there is such a thing. You described it. It is the choosing in the case where there are multiple possibilities. You are confusing all of that with the considerations and motivations for making the choice. To sin is a choice. Without free will, there is no such thing as sin - PERIOD!

In order to attempt to get out of the box you are in and focus on what is actually being said; give your definition of free will. Then give your definition of the Calvinist "our will is not free."

When considering the human will, the considerations and motivations for making any choice that is made, MUST be taken into consideration, as those are the things that determine the direction in which our will moves.

 

[Mr GLee]

What in the world are you talking about? I said nothing about violating the will of another, whatever you think that might mean.

To sin is to violate the will of another some call it a lying . Have you ever lied?

What do you think sin means?

 

[JIM]

What do you think sin means?

1Jn_3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

Now, what do you think sin means?

 

[JIM]

In order to attempt to get out of the box you are in and focus on what is actually being said; give your definition of free will. Then give your definition of the Calvinist "our will is not free."

As I stated in another topic, theologically, free will is the ability to choose whether or not to obey any given command of God.

When considering the human will, the considerations and motivations for making any choice that is made, MUST be taken into consideration, as those are the things that determine the direction in which our will moves.

Of course. But none of that precludes free will. Free will does not mean choices made independent of who we are, independent of where we are in life, or independent of our own being.

 

[Arial]

As I stated in another topic, theologically, free will is the ability to choose whether or not to obey any given command of God.

That is too generalized and also inaccurate. In what way does it enter in to choosing Christ?
Now you need to define what you think the Calvin view of the human will is so we can discuss something specific.

Of course. But none of that precludes free will. Free will does not mean choices made independent of who we are, independent of where we are in life, or independent of our own being.

I did not say it did. I said the opposite. How is our will free if it is motivated by who we are and what we desire? It does what it wants to. Does it want to come to Christ and submit entirely to God? If the answer is no, why is it no?

If the answer is yes, why is it yes?

 

[sawdust]

And here we run smack into the no freedom of the will. Our will is free to move us in the direction of our desires, it can do what we desire, but it cannot do what we do not desire.

But here is the essence of the problem. God did not give us free will to negate our desire but to reveal our desire. It is for this very reason we are never free from ourselves. The freedom of our will (which can only occur when grace is applied to the flesh) is freedom from external influences, never internal (ie.one's own soul). It would make absolutely no sense to have a will that was not controlled by one's own desires. That situation would say nothing about us except to sow confusion about who and what we are.

 

[Mr GLee]

But here is the essence of the problem. God did not give us free will to negate our desire but to reveal our desire. It is for this very reason we are never free from ourselves. The freedom of our will (which can only occur when grace is applied to the flesh) is freedom from external influences, never internal (ie.one's own soul). It would make absolutely no sense to have a will that was not controlled by one's own desires. That situation would say nothing about us except to sow confusion about who and what we are.

Free will empowers us to have a desire to do the will of a unseen God. It's the kind of food as daily bread that the disciples knew not of

John 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work (both to will "send" and do "finish"

The good food . .God working in us yoked with Him making our burdens lighter.

Philippians 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

 

[sawdust]

Free will empowers us to have a desire to do the will of a unseen God

No it doesn't for it reveals there are those who desire not to do God's will. If we are not exercising our will in whatever decisions we are making then we are not exercising our will but the will of someone else. And if only God's will could be done then we would never see sin or evil.

 

[sawdust]

Does it want to come to Christ and submit entirely to God? If the answer is no, why is it no?

If the answer is yes, why is it yes?

Sometimes yes and sometimes no, it depends on the person. The will is a function of the soul. It is the flesh that is anti-God, not the soul. The soul is ignorant of God because we have no spiritual capacity to comprehend spiritual matters. This is why grace must be applied to the flesh so the soul is free to see for itself what it desires. And God does not wait upon us to come to our senses, but the Spirit is at work in the world and is ministering to us from the day we are born. Our first and last breath is by the grace of God.

 

[turbomaniac]

The main problem for we christians is that we think we are doing God Word's will, but we are doing ours. We have to spent a lot time in praying and not doing silly things in order to do the will of our Creator.

For me the same. I should be praying right now and not writing these words...

 

[Arial]

The main problem for we christians is that we think we are doing God Word's will, but we are doing ours. We have to spent a lot time in praying and not doing silly things in order to do the will of our Creator.

For me the same. I should be praying right now and not writing these words...

God's revealed will is in His word. Not in what we imagine he is telling us to do. For example: I have heard so many conversations begin "God told me to----?" Followed by things such as go to Africa, take that particular job, take a different route to work. The way I see it, whatever purpose God has for us, He will bring it to fruition. Whatever way He wants us to go, that is the way we will go and also whatever way we go, He is with us. And though this may sound passive, it is not. He also gives us the ability to think and reason and act, and to align all of this up with His revealed will, and we are expected to do so.

 

[Mr GLee]

No it doesn't for it reveals there are those who desire not to do God's will. If we are not exercising our will in whatever decisions we are making then we are not exercising our will but the will of someone else. And if only God's will could be done then we would never see sin or evil

To begin God is not served by the dying hands as a will of mankind . He moves dying mankind .They that have no power and therefore cannot move him.

God's will is the will of all truth spiritual as well as temporal.

If he does not work in us to both reveal his truth and empower us to perform it to His god pleasure . Then it was never his will to begin with

Some like Jesus the Son of man did it with delight some murmur and get thrown overboard kick against the pricks and desire to die rather give God the glory

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings

Remember the key both reveal and empower. Don't be like Jonah the murmurer .

Jonah 4:1-3King James Version But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry.And he prayed unto the Lord, and said, I pray thee, O Lord, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil. Therefore now, O Lord, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live

Some would rather die than admit they are powerless of their own self.